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200vdc 1A supply, adjustable 180-220vdc

I need to build this supply. Any ideas on how to approach this? Obviously, I think, mains transformer and bridge and suitable cap, but how to make it adjustable is my problem.

All ideas on how to achieve this will be welcome

Herman
 

davenn

Moderator
I need to build this supply. Any ideas on how to approach this? Obviously, I think, mains transformer and bridge and suitable cap, but how to make it adjustable is my problem.

All ideas on how to achieve this will be welcome

Herman

hi there, welcome to EP :)

who asked you to do this ?
Do they know you don't know how to do this project ?

this is usually done with switch mode supplies, not linear ones


Dave
 
Dear @Herman Botha ,

I have been designing a power supply circuit too. However you need to justify the output voltage and current to find the voltage regulator required.

The "Texas instruments" company has search engine specially for finding the voltage regulators. Moreover, you could use it to find a voltage regulator rated for your specification.

Just some vocabulary:

Vin: Input voltage --> voltage after rectifier/ and capacitors (please calculate the voltage if your putting them before the regulator)

Vout: Output voltage --> voltage after regulator ic which can be adjustable.

Iout: The maximum current --> The maximum current You need to output by the regulator.

Note:

There is a datasheet that comes with the regulator that you will use. You'll find most of what you want there as well as a conceptual circuit.

regards,

Teklucifer
 

davenn

Moderator
Dear @Herman Botha ,

I have been designing a power supply circuit too. However you need to justify the output voltage and current to find the voltage regulator required.

The "Texas instruments" company has search engine specially for finding the voltage regulators. Moreover, you could use it to find a voltage regulator rated for your specification.

Just some vocabulary:

Vin: Input voltage --> voltage after rectifier/ and capacitors (please calculate the voltage if your putting them before the regulator)

Vout: Output voltage --> voltage after regulator ic which can be adjustable.

Iout: The maximum current --> The maximum current You need to output by the regulator.

Note:

There is a datasheet that comes with the regulator that you will use. You'll find most of what you want there as well as a conceptual circuit.

regards,

Teklucifer


please note he wants the capability of a variable mains input voltage
your PSU in your thread which I have responded to is not the type of PSU he needs


Dave
 
Thanks, guys. I will get back to you this evening SAT. I need a variable output. Mains here is std 230vac. I have been in electronics as hobbyist for very many years, yet never needed this out of the ordinary type of supply.

THX again
 

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
What is this supply for?

How well regulated does it need to be?

1A really?

One solution is to have an isolation transformer and a variac driving a simple bridge rectifier/filter. This won't have very good stability, and won't have a current limit, but it might suit your requirements.

Be *VERY* aware that a high voltage power supply like this is potentially deadly.
 
I am well aware of the dangers of mains and high voltages. Thanks for the reminder, otherwise an inadvertent moment might remind me very forcefully.

This is to drive quite a few (up to) 50 meters of RGB led strings that nominally work of 210 volts. but needs to be supplied less at times to achieve the desired colour changes.

Reasonable stabilty is essential. Switching supplies may be a bit "noisy". as these are used at and very near very high end audio, and an automation system running bus cable for data.

THX
 
This is to drive quite a few (up to) 50 meters of RGB led strings that nominally work of 210 volts. but needs to be supplied less at times to achieve the desired colour changes.
LEDs should normally be current-driven, not voltage-driven. Wouldn't a conventional constant-current LED driver, albeit with a current which you can control, suit your needs?
 

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
This is to drive quite a few (up to) 50 meters of RGB led strings that nominally work of 210 volts. but needs to be supplied less at times to achieve the desired colour changes.

210 volts? I presume you're connecting them in series.

Are they just strings of LEDs or do they have resistors as well?

I would tend to recommend wiring them in parallel strings (assuming they have integral resistors) and running them from a higher current, but lower voltage power supply.

However, you may be running them as one long string to ensure the same current through each LED -- I would tend to think that this is unlikely since even with red LEDs this represents only about 100 LEDs.

You present a good argument for a linear power supply, however I would recommend that you provide variable current limiting rather than a variable output voltage. The brightness of LEDs is directly related to current and thus the control would provide a far more linear effect.
 
Hi Steve
Yes, obviously you are right about current limiting. Surely current that will flow is dependent on voltage applied, the leds presenting a resistive load? The strings contain many leds. About 40 of each colour to a meter, and we are talking 50 meters. The strings are made up by the manufacturer in meter sections, each meter being in parallel to all other sections in the string. Thus the supply voltage is 210 for a meter, or 50 meters, regardless. Resistors are built into the string, which is a plastic encased ribbon. We have done the experiments using a variac before the bridge. Very specific colours and colour combinations can be achieved by the relative brightness of the three colours, which respond very favourably to simple supply voltage changes.

Thus after a lot of time we arrived at the conclusion that we really only need a voltage adjustable supply in the range of about 180 vdc to 210 vdc.
 
Rather iffy arrangement. Possibly work in theory but I'm wondering if you've given any thought to the potential hazard of high voltage fault currents in event of a blow up in one or more of the strings. Don't know about others here but find it difficult to follow your reasoning based on your calculations, so perhaps a diagram of what you have would be more helpful.
 

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
the leds presenting a resistive load?

The LEDs do not present a resistive load.

Thus the supply voltage is 210 for a meter,

OK, so they're designed for this high voltage supply, it's not something you've done.

If you can get approx 220 VDC then a linear supply capable of varying this from 180V to 210V should dissipate no more than about 50W -- probably less. This will require significant heatsinking, but nothing really special.

Will this supply be continuously adjustable, or set once and then left?
 

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
Possibly work in theory but I'm wondering if you've given any thought to the potential hazard of high voltage fault currents in event of a blow up in one or more of the strings.

I'd just use a fuse in conjunction with a linear regulator that is designed not to be able to supply currents large enough to instantly destroy the pass element.
 
The whole thing was a bit iffy, if I understand "Iffy" correctly!

Fact is, in practice, strange things will happen. But after lots of guessing experimental effort, this is what we arrived at. We need to achieve very specific overall colour output by the strings. Eg, to obtain shades of purple, green are mostly off, Red is quite bright and various brightnesses of blue will result in various shades of purple. Likewise, getting a specific orange hue, very little blue is used, but quite some red and green. Etc.

We need to be able to swtch from one colour to another at preset times controlled by the relay modules of a rathet high end automation system, in this case Vantage. Many hours of work went into all of this. What remains is a suitable supply, as I mentioned before. We had some nice toroidals made , with secondaries to deliver in the order of 210 and 180 respectively after rectification, and getting rid of the p-p values and ripple by quite large smoothing caps. We have tried resistive drops, but as not all strings are on all the time, colors cahnge when some sre switched off.

There is a rather substantial investment in this, and we now need only the 220vdc adjustable supply. Using the automation system's dimmer modules, apart from being really expensive, using leading edge dimming, did not produce either the desired results or the needed smooth transitions. I do not want to belabour this, but rather concentrate on a sensible supply as I have described in my first post.

Yes, we have incorporated fuses. In addition, the construction of the led strings are such that all drama if any is contained internally in the heavily encapsulated ribbons.
 

hevans1944

Hop - AC8NS
I need to build this supply. Any ideas on how to approach this? Obviously, I think, mains transformer and bridge and suitable cap, but how to make it adjustable is my problem.

All ideas on how to achieve this will be welcome

Herman
You can build a filtered DC supply providing unregulated 230 V at 1A to a series three-terminal regulator that outputs an adjustable 180 V DC to 220 V DC. The voltage drop across the series regulator will vary from 10 V DC at 220 V DC output to 50 V DC at 180 V DC output. Worst case current of 1A through the series regulator with 50 V drop is 50 watts, so a reasonable heat sink is required, although the maximum current should only occur at 220 V DC output with 10 V DC across, and hence 10 watts dissipated in, the series regulator.

Controlling the series regulator is a little more complicated since a three-terminal regulator will have it's adjust terminal at approximately 220 V DC. However, the Texas Instruments LM317HV will allow a 60 V DC differential between input and output, while passing up to 1.5 A. So, mount this part on an electrically insulated heat sink and use a high-voltage op-amp to control the ADJ pin.

You have to make absolutely sure the output never gets shorted to ground or the LM317HV will let all of its "magic smoke" out, probably with a spectacular bang. See the datasheet linked above. Also, it would be a good idea to have some voltage regulation, perhaps with a power zener diode configuration, on the input DC to make sure it never increases above 240 V because of power-line voltage increases. Any input voltage above 240 V DC would exceed the 60 V maximum drop across the regulator when the output is adjusted to 180 V DC. If you need or want some protection against faults, this is going to get complicated.

An expensive (but relatively bullet-proof) alternative to an adjustable power supply is a high-voltage, high-current op-amp. Take a look at the products offered by Apex Microtechnology. I would start with the PA96. I have used Apex power op-amps and can testify they work as advertised, although you have to carefully follow Apex instructions on how to use them.

How do you intend to control the output voltage of your 180 to 220 V DC power supply?
 
Hi Hevans1944

This is more in line with my conventional thinking on the subject. I am nor a fundi but well versed in basic construction. I spent most of my hobbyist time in the audio field.

Few questions, if this is not too much to ask:

Can you make a simple wiring sketch on how to use the op amp?
The data sheet for the Texas Instruments LM317HV never refers to voltages this high. Can it in fact be used at this kind of input voltage? While I have frequently used the LM series in the order of 5,9,12v and ones like lm350 for adjustable use, I do not know too much about series regulators theory and properties. Can you help some more?

THX Herman
 

(*steve*)

¡sǝpodᴉʇuɐ ǝɥʇ ɹɐǝɥd
Moderator
Check this application note out: http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snoa648/snoa648.pdf

For your application, R3 should be chosen to drop about 2.5V at full rated current (so use 2R2 ohms 5W).

Note that the pass transistor will have to dissipate a HUGE amount of power (well, greater than 200W) if the output is shorted, so you're going to either have to prevent a short circuit or employ some form of foldback current limiting.

You will also probably need to have several paralleled transistors so they don't fail almost immediately if you do have a shorted output. Fortunately R3 takes the place of an emitter resistor, so if you had 3 darlingtons in parallel you could use a 6R8 ohm R3 for each.

R1 will need to be smaller, and you'll want to ensure the zener has a sufficient power rating.

Given the voltages/currents, you'll want to carefully check you're operating the transistors in their SOA.

edit: (just fixed the resistor values). Also, you could place a fan on the heatsink that is turned on as the temperature rises.
 
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Hi Guys

Thanks to all who contributed. Between all the advice and comments I have quite a bit to do now.

More questions will come in future. I am an oldie who built quite serious amps with vacuum tubes (valves) and the modern electronic world has passed me by a little bit lately. I was born before the OC 71 Even the high voltage supplies were done with valves, and multi-secondary transformers. Digital barely existed, and silicon chips certainly not.

I will be ordering components as I live in a little rural town half way between Cape Town and Port Elizabeth in South Africa. Here, you cannot even buy a resistor.

Thanks again to all.

Herman
 

hevans1944

Hop - AC8NS
I will be ordering components as I live in a little rural town half way between Cape Town and Port Elizabeth in South Africa. Here, you cannot even buy a resistor.
Herman, I have been there, had to do that. I got started in electronics in Morristown, Tennessee, about 1953 or thereabouts. This wasn't exactly a rural town, but it was close. I walked to school, and sometimes helped feed a pig after school. The pig was being raised by a school chum for profit. Fortunately, there was a TV repair shop near where I was living with my grandparents that year, and I made friends with the owner, a young man in his twenties. He was able to "scrounge" parts for me from broken TVs and radios that he serviced, but were abandoned by owners who couldn't afford to pay for the repairs. As I grew older, I learned to buy parts by mail order from Allied and Lafayette Electronics using money earned by mowing grass in the summer, shoveling snow in the winter, and delivering newspapers year round. By the time I graduated high school and went off to serve in the Air Force I had acquired a nice array of test equipment and (mostly) salvaged electronics parts.

I built my first vacuum tube plate power supply in the 1960s for my Novice amateur radio rig. It used a series regulator (a TV horizontal-sweep power pentode, 6BQ6GTB IIRC) to obtain a variable, voltage-regulated, output voltage at the cathode of the pass tube. Good for several hundred milliamperes at four or five hundred volts if you pushed it hard enough. The negative feedback was provided by, again IIRC, a high-mu duo-triode, 12AX7. Reference voltage for feedback was provided by a gas regulator tube, an OA2 perhaps. I used whatever I happened to have in my "junque box" at the time. Almost all the parts I used were salvaged from discarded TV sets. The schematic below is not exactly what I used, but it is close enough to give you the general idea, Today this would be constructed entirely with solid-state components, but the vacuum tubes are still available if you search for them.

reg31.gif

Since the cathode of the pass tube is at B+ potential (200 V in the example above), its filament heater should be driven from a separate, isolated, center-tapped, filament transformer with sufficient insulation in the secondary winding to hold off the output voltage. The center-tap of the filament transformer secondary winding is connected to the cathode of the pass tube, so the heater element and the cathode are at the same potential.

I haven't tried it, but you should be able to parallel two or more pass tubes to increase the output current capability. It would be interesting to see a build using a chassis full of 6BQ6s operating in parallel to deliver one amp at 220 V DC to your LED strip lights. Whoops! Times three, since you need separate power supplies for red, green, and blue LEDs. Probably need forced air to keep the pass tubes cool, but you might need that anyway to cool the heat sinks in a solid-state version. There is something about the gentle glow of the tube filaments, and the soft red glow of their anode plates, that makes vacuum tubes still attractive to me.:cool: Well, to look at and admire, not so much to actually build.:D

You still haven't told us what the "control signal" from the high-end PLC is providing. I am guessing a 0 to 10(?) V DC analog signal from a DAC module. This will be important in deciding how to control a solid-state power supply using op-amps. Some hands-on trial-and-error will be required if I were to build this.

Can you make a simple wiring sketch on how to use the op amp?
The data sheet for the Texas Instruments LM317HV never refers to voltages this high. Can it in fact be used at this kind of input voltage? While I have frequently used the LM series in the order of 5,9,12v and ones like lm350 for adjustable use, I do not know too much about series regulators theory and properties. Can you help some more?
Quote from the first page of the LM317HV datasheet: "Since the regulator is floating and sees only the input-to-output differential voltage, supplies of several hundred volts can be regulated as long as the maximum input to output differential is not exceeded, or in other words, do not short the output to ground." There is essentially no limit on how high the output voltage can be, but the LM317HV must be well-insulated from power supply common, and the voltage drop across it from IN to OUT must always be less than 60 V DC. In other words, it floats on the high voltage power supply output. The trick is to control the ADJ terminal (which is always maintained by the LM317HV to be 1.25 V less positive than the OUT terminal by controlling current through a resistor connected between OUT and ADJ) by using an op-amp capable of driving ADJ toward the desired output potential, but with a much lower control voltage (that's what op-amps do: amplify small voltage differences). The op-amp is nested inside a negative feedback loop that samples the output voltage and compares it with a stable reference voltage, the difference driving the op-amp output. There are some pesky details regarding open-loop gain, stability, and response time that must be considered, as well as some means to avoid disaster if the output were shorted, but its almost that simple. Perhaps you should try breadboarding a three-terminal regulator with an op-amp controlling the ADJ voltage to get a "feel" for how this all works without vacuum tubes.:D I think you will be pleasantly surprised at how simple it is.;)
 
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