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why does microwave radiation heat water and current split water into hydrogen and oxygen?..tia sal

S

sal

Greetings All,

Why does microwave radiation heat water and subjecting water to a
current/voltage split water into hydrogen and oxygen? Is it the frequency
of the vibrations being used?

Anybody have a good explination
TIA

SAL
 
D

Don Lancaster

sal said:
Greetings All,

Why does microwave radiation heat water and subjecting water to a
current/voltage split water into hydrogen and oxygen? Is it the frequency
of the vibrations being used?

Anybody have a good explination
TIA

SAL

The two effects are totally different and are largely unrelated.
Microwave heating causes friction of liquid bipolar molecules.

Faraday's law lets current cause a pair of electrochemical reactions
that adds an electron to each hydrogen atom and removes two electrons
from each oxygen atom, allowing their separation.

Electrolysis normally only responds to the dc component of any current
waveform since it is an integration. But the cells can be highly
nonlinear which might do an inefficient rectification of ac terms.

Because of a thermodynamic property called "exergy", electrolysis is
totally useless for bulk energy hydrogen production when driven from
high value grid or pv sources.

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/energfun.pdf
http://www.tinaja.com/glib/muse153.pdf


--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
voice: (928)428-4073 email: [email protected]

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
 
M

muha

Electolysis: Ripping off electrons from OH- and giving them to H+ is
just a matter of electrical potencial. With enough voltage, all kinds
of redox transformation will happen. Vibrations and frequency have
absolutely nothing to do with it. Nothing whatsoever - a DC current
from your car batery is perfectly good for the purpose.

Microwawes: microwaves heat thing that have some charge or dipole to
them (so that they can absorb the radiation). Water molecule is a
dipole. The radiofrequency here is important because different
molecules /ions have different absorbtion maxima in microwawe region.
It just happens that the microwave photons are in energy region which
corresponds transitions between various rotation/translation states of
common molecules.
 
G

G. R. L. Cowan

sal said:
Greetings All,

Why does microwave radiation heat water and subjecting water to a
current/voltage split water into hydrogen and oxygen? Is it the frequency
of the vibrations being used?

No. A direct-current voltage below, IIRC, 1.2 V
will only heat water, like microwaves.


--- Graham Cowan, former hydrogen fan
http://www.eagle.ca/~gcowan/Paper_for_11th_CHC.html --
boron as energy carrier: real-car range, nuclear cachet
 
D

Don Stauffer

sal said:
Greetings All,

Why does microwave radiation heat water and subjecting water to a
current/voltage split water into hydrogen and oxygen? Is it the frequency
of the vibrations being used?

Anybody have a good explination
TIA

SAL

Only a band of microwave radiation heats water, not all frequencies.
All molecules with more than one atom have certain resonent frequencies.
The bonds between the atoms are kind of springy, giving rise to the
resonent vibrations. If an electromagnetic wave with that same
frequency impinges on the molecule, it excites the molecule. It then
transfers energy to it, heating it.

The microwave photons in a microwave oven do not have enough energy to
ionize (strip electrons from the molecule, or SPLIT the molecule). One
needs to get up into the ultraviolet wavelengths/frequencies to get
energic enough photons to do that. I am not a spectroscopist, but I
assme there are UV wavelengths that will disassociate water.
 
M

Madalch

Why does microwave radiation heat water and subjecting water to a
current/voltage split water into hydrogen and oxygen? Is it the frequency
of the vibrations being used?

Radiation (of any sort) and electrolysis are two completely different
things- why would one expect them to have the same effect? (A DC
voltage, by the way, doesn't vibrate.)
 
The most simplistic explanation for a layman is that the disassociation
forces induced into the water by the microwave r.f. field is
essentially a.c. at a frequency that if the ions of water are
disassociated, the field reverses so quickly that the ions haven't time
to move away from each other and consequently recombine.

You can disassocate water using low frequency a.c. at say 60-Hz, but
then the cathode and anode are reversing positions at this 60-Hz rate,
creating a mix of hydrogen and oxygen at each terminal.

This is why nothing but d.c. is employed for the practical electrolysis
of water, simply because the anode and cathode remain fixed negating
the ion velocity in the electrolytic solution and allowing hydrogen to
collected at the cathode and oxygen at the anode.

For the more technically inclined reader, there have been experiments
done using r.f. frequencies to disassociate the water molecule, while
using a static electrical field to collect and separate them. IIRC, the
conclusion was that there was no net benefit over using simple
electrolysis because you're simply trading off Ohmic power loss for
microwave production power losses. Hence, if you want to separate water
into hydrogen and oxygen, simple d.c. driven electrolysis remains the
most efficient way to do the job.

Either way, splitting a water into it's constituent components is and
well defined in the literature. Above and beyond this is that you have
additionally provide for the losses associated with the specific method
that you are using.

Either way, you cannot produce more energy from hydrogen than that
which went into producing it, only vary the amount of energy that is
alway lost in the chosen process.

Hope this helps. Harry C.
 
Oh, I in my pontification I nearly missed your original question.

The answer is that microwaves heat water by whatever mechanism agitates
and imparts energy to the water molecules.

The heating effect of microwaves has amost nothing to do with splitting
water into hydrogen and oxygen, although that may play a role in the
agitation of the water molecules.

Harry C.
 
B

Bruce Sinclair

Greetings All,

Why does microwave radiation heat water and subjecting water to a
current/voltage split water into hydrogen and oxygen? Is it the frequency
of the vibrations being used?

Anybody have a good explination
TIA

Check out microwaves and OH bonds
Check out electrolysis of water.

Totally different things going on here :)

Bruce

----------------------------------------
I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good
people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and
only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.

Lord Vetinari in Guards ! Guards ! - Terry Pratchett

Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
(if there were any)
 
G

Guest

Greetings All,

Why does microwave radiation heat water and subjecting water to a
current/voltage split water into hydrogen and oxygen? Is it the frequency
of the vibrations being used?

Anybody have a good explination
TIA

SAL
Even at 60Hz, the H shaped electrolysis apparatus shown in chemistry books
is poor at producing H2 O2 mixtures compared to using dc. As soon as an
electron is transferred, the reversal of voltage takes it away. At microwave
frequencies, there is no electrolysis to speak of. Even the mobility of
electrons at those frequencies is virtually nil.

What microwaves can do is excite vibration and rotation and vibrational
modes. That excitation will heat other modes as the system reaches thermal
equilibrium. That is based upon what is called equipartition. That is based
upon classical statistical mechanics and has to be modified to take quantum
effects into account. Look up the Debye theory of specific heats.

Bill
 
J

Jasen Betts

Why does microwave radiation heat water and subjecting water to a
current/voltage split water into hydrogen and oxygen? Is it the frequency
of the vibrations being used?

microwave ovens don't heat water by conduction, (they do heat some special
cookware by conduction though)

the frequency of the microwave radiation matches the bending oscilaton
frequency of the water molecules, the microwave radiation makes the water
molecules it hits ring and bang into each other this is being hotter.

basically water molecules are like tuning forks and the microwaves are on
the frequency that makes the fork sing.

Bye.
Jasen
 
Z

Zak

Don said:
Only a band of microwave radiation heats water, not all frequencies.

Thus, wet coax is a fine cable for various microwave frequencies? Hmm...
experience tells otherwise.



Thomas
 
J

Jamie

Zak said:
Thus, wet coax is a fine cable for various microwave frequencies? Hmm...
experience tells otherwise.



Thomas
emitting strong low band energy across a surface of rust can
generate M-wave energy depending on the surface texture.
so those that have rusty cars and such, better get it to the
body shop quick! :)
 
D

Don Stauffer

Zak said:
Thus, wet coax is a fine cable for various microwave frequencies? Hmm...
experience tells otherwise.



Thomas


If all microwave frequencies were absorbed by water, microwave radars
wouldn't be able to see through clouds or rain. Now, with IR that is
true. Thermal imagers all suffer when humidity is high- not all radars do.
 
J

Jasen Betts

Thus, wet coax is a fine cable for various microwave frequencies? Hmm...
experience tells otherwise.

coax doesn't carry microwave radiation.

apart from conducting the electric component of the signal dampness also
messes with up the characteristic impedance of the cable....

Bye.
Jasen
 
D

Don Stauffer

Jasen said:
coax doesn't carry microwave radiation.

apart from conducting the electric component of the signal dampness also
messes with up the characteristic impedance of the cable....

Bye.
Jasen
Yes, there ARE UHF/microwave coaxes, using polyethylene, that will
handle the lower bands of microwave, like C and even S bands, as long as
you are not going too far. Waveguides may be better, but if you accept
some loss, coaxes will work. Not all waveguides are equal, either.
Cheap waveguides have attenuation losses too.

However, the statement about the dampness affecting electrical
properties of insulating medium is correct.
 
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