Whatever happened to MIT ?

[Eeyore]

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/oxygen-0731.html

'Major discovery' from MIT primed to unleash solar
revolution
Scientists mimic essence of plants' energy storage
system

Anne Trafton, News Office
July 31, 2008

" In a revolutionary leap that could transform solar
power from a marginal, boutique alternative into a
mainstream energy source, MIT researchers have
overcome a major barrier to large-scale solar
power: storing energy for use when the sun doesn't
shine."

Apparently by using electricity to convert water to oxygen and hydrogen
!

Yet they seem to claim they can produce either independently !

"The key component in Nocera and Kanan's new process is a new catalyst
that produces oxygen gas from water; another catalyst produces valuable
hydrogen gas. The new catalyst consists of cobalt metal, phosphate and
an electrode, placed in water. When electricity -- whether from a
photovoltaic cell, a wind turbine or any other source -- runs through
the electrode, the cobalt and phosphate form a thin film on the
electrode, and oxygen gas is produced.

Combined with another catalyst, such as platinum, that can produce
hydrogen gas from water, the system can duplicate the water splitting
reaction that occurs during photosynthesis."

Graham

 

[Richard Henry]

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/oxygen-0731.html

'Major discovery' from MIT primed to unleash solar
revolution
Scientists mimic essence of plants' energy storage
system

Graham

The article doesn't say what distinguishes this process form the high-
school physical science lab experiment.

 

[Jon Slaughter]

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/oxygen-0731.html

'Major discovery' from MIT primed to unleash solar
revolution
Scientists mimic essence of plants' energy storage
system

Graham

The article doesn't say what distinguishes this process form the high-
school physical science lab experiment.

 

[Le Chaud Lapin]

Oh please. There an earth-changing press release like this, somewhere
in the world, about once a day.

"Nocera hopes that within 10 years, homeowners will be able to power
their homes in daylight through photovoltaic cells, while using excess
solar energy to produce hydrogen and oxygen to power their own
household fuel cell. Electricity-by-wire from a central source could
be a thing of the past."

What a maroon.

The usual hyperbolic claims for a test-tube experimant, and the usual
10 year time frame.

True. Very hard to see what unique advancement has been made. Too
bad it's MIT. What a shame.

Caltech is not without guilt though. I was reading italian newspaper
a few years ago and saw, "Soon you will be abled to download an entire
DVD in 5 seconds." My italian is not great, so I re-read, and re-read,
then realized that the paper was probably hyping the hype of an
Australian newspaper that hyped the hype of an American newspaper that
might or might not have been hyped by a Caltech article:

http://mr.caltech.edu/media/Press_Releases/PR12356.html

-Le Chaud Lapin-

 

[James Arthur]

Oh please. There an earth-changing press release like this, somewhere
in the world, about once a day.

"Nocera hopes that within 10 years, homeowners will be able to power
their homes in daylight through photovoltaic cells, while using excess
solar energy to produce hydrogen and oxygen to power their own
household fuel cell. Electricity-by-wire from a central source could
be a thing of the past."

What a maroon.

The usual hyperbolic claims for a test-tube experimant, and the usual
10 year time frame.

John

Why don't they just store the photons directly & let 'em out at
night ?


Cheers,
James Arthur

 

[[email protected]]

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2008/oxygen-0731.html

'Major discovery' from MIT primed to unleash solar
revolution
Scientists mimic essence of plants' energy storage
system

Anne Trafton, News Office
July 31, 2008

" In a revolutionary leap that could transform solar
power from a marginal, boutique alternative into a
mainstream energy source, MIT researchers have
overcome a major barrier to large-scale solar
power: storing energy for use when the sun doesn't
shine."

Apparently by using electricity to convert water to oxygen and hydrogen
!

Yet they seem to claim they can produce either independently !

"The key component in Nocera and Kanan's new process is a new catalyst
that produces oxygen gas from water; another catalyst produces valuable
hydrogen gas. The new catalyst consists of cobalt metal, phosphate and
an electrode, placed in water. When electricity -- whether from a
photovoltaic cell, a wind turbine or any other source -- runs through
the electrode, the cobalt and phosphate form a thin film on the
electrode, and oxygen gas is produced.

Combined with another catalyst, such as platinum, that can produce
hydrogen gas from water, the system can duplicate the water splitting
reaction that occurs during photosynthesis."

Graham

I was laughing too when I read that press release. Like, duh, store
hydrogen and oxygen from solar power. Never mind the problems with
hydrogen diffusing through solid materials, or causing iron vessels to
become brittle... why not just charge lead-acid batteries while you're
at it, and run 'em through an inverter at night...

Sounds like the press folks don't really understand the chemistry.
When I was younger, I too was in search of the "magic" catalyst that,
when dumped in water, would liberate hydrogen and oxygen. Never mind
that that's a violation of the laws of thermodynamics...

Michael

 

[Eeyore]

I was laughing too when I read that press release. Like, duh, store
hydrogen and oxygen from solar power.

And it's MIT's own press office !

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

If it's valid at all they've found catalysts that help improve the
efficiency of electrolysis.

The gasses do bubble off of different electrodes -- oxygen gets oxidized
at one (I'd say "at the cathode", but I only have a 50% chance of being
right), and hydrogen gets reduced at the other. So I could certainly
see coating each electrode with appropriate catalysts, assuming that
such exist.

Platinum is standard anyway AIUI for decent efficicency.

But I think that what's really going on is that MIT has gotten used to
generating headlines, and now they've got some dips--t in the
administration who's demanding it.

Sounds like it.

Graham

 

[Martin Brown]

Oh please. There an earth-changing press release like this, somewhere
in the world, about once a day.

But normally by snake oil salesmen in boilerhouse share selling
operations looking to separate the terminally gullible from their hard
earned cash.

"Nocera hopes that within 10 years, homeowners will be able to power
their homes in daylight through photovoltaic cells, while using excess
solar energy to produce hydrogen and oxygen to power their own
household fuel cell. Electricity-by-wire from a central source could
be a thing of the past."

What a maroon.

The usual hyperbolic claims for a test-tube experimant, and the usual
10 year time frame.

I don't often agree with you entirely but in this case I will make an
exception.

Whoever drafted the press release should be fired. The improved
electrode (if indeed that is what it is) is nothing like a new
photosynthetic route for harvesting the suns energy.

Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[[email protected]]

And it's MIT's own press office !

Graham

Sigh.

For a moment there I thought they'd found a fix for the anode
oxidation problem - oxygen is formed at the anode (oxidized from the
-2 oxidation state to the 0 ox. state) but the oxidation of common
metals to the (+2 typically) oxidation state is a competing reaction.
Typically that's fixed by using graphite, or using platinum. I
thought maybe the "catalyst" is a protective coating over the anode,
keeping it from dissolving - but then a few sentences down they
mention platinum. Platinum doesn't degrade, but it's a bit
expensive...

Reduction of hydrogen from +1 (H+) to 0 (H2 gas) occurs at the
cathode, that's no problem...

Michael

 

[Richard The Dreaded Libertarian]

On Fri, 01 Aug 2008 03:42:24 +0100, Eeyore wrote:

"Whatever happened to MIT ?"

Well, FWIW, Jim Thompson went to school there. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Le Chaud Lapin]

"Caltech is not without guilt though.  I was reading italian newspaper
a few years ago and saw, "Soon you will be abled to download an entire
DVD in 5 seconds.""

If you're Bill Gates, I suspect you might already have that ability.

Presumably they mean that mere mortals will be able to afford such high
bandwidths?

Yea, that's why I think it was irresponsible of Caltech to publish
that article. They knew in advance that a press release would cause
the average person to think that a DVD could be downloaded over
typicaly broadband link in 5 seconds.

It's kinda the same with solar... works just fine today, just not particularly
cost competitive in many cases (unless you start putting a lot of value on
being off the grid, that is).  The main thing technology can proivide is to
make it affordable to the average person...

-Le Chaud Lapin-

 

[krw]

True. Very hard to see what unique advancement has been made. Too
bad it's MIT. What a shame.

Caltech is not without guilt though. I was reading italian newspaper
a few years ago and saw, "Soon you will be abled to download an entire
DVD in 5 seconds." My italian is not great, so I re-read, and re-read,
then realized that the paper was probably hyping the hype of an
Australian newspaper that hyped the hype of an American newspaper that
might or might not have been hyped by a Caltech article:

Ok, where are they going to store the data?

 

[Le Chaud Lapin]

Ok, where are they going to store the data?

Good point.

I think you're supposed to also watch the DVD at the same time it is
downloading.

-Le Chaud Lapin-

 

[krw]

[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...

Good point.

I think you're supposed to also watch the DVD at the same time it is
downloading.

In five seconds? "That was a nice movie. What do we do next?" ;-)

 

[JosephKK]

If it's valid at all they've found catalysts that help improve the
efficiency of electrolysis.

The gasses do bubble off of different electrodes -- oxygen gets oxidized
at one (I'd say "at the cathode", but I only have a 50% chance of being
right), and hydrogen gets reduced at the other. So I could certainly
see coating each electrode with appropriate catalysts, assuming that
such exist.

But I think that what's really going on is that MIT has gotten used to
generating headlines, and now they've got some dips--t in the
administration who's demanding it.

There may well be some truth in that. At the same time true
journalism is long dead, having been replaced by sensationalism.

 

[Le Chaud Lapin]

There may well be some truth in that.  At the same time true
journalism is long dead, having been replaced by sensationalism.

Yep.

Not surprsing though - imagine how long a journalist would last if s/
he had opportunity to report on something that s/he knew was 95% hype,
only 5% substance, and said, "No, Thanks, I'll pass. Call me back when
you actually have something real."

OTOH, for real innovation, this state of affairs is actually
benefiicial.

If one actually does find a significant breakthrough in anything
significant, the media will serve as ready-and-willing [begging,
pleading, groveling] marketing agents. The entire interested world
could know about it in a matter of a week. And there will be
skepticism from all the wolf-crying by prior pseudo-innovators. So
the audience will be primed and thirsty for the truth:

"Yes, we know what it is. Do you have it, or do you not?"

This is why it irks when people claim that insurmountable marketing
obstacles are the reason that breakthroughs do not succeed.

If it's that good, people will want to use it, and people will want to
tell people who want to use it, about it, for free.

-Le Chaud Lapin-

 

[Dirk Bruere at NeoPax]

There may well be some truth in that. At the same time true
journalism is long dead, having been replaced by sensationalism.

News is something that someone, somewhere, does not want you to know.
The rest is PR and entertainment.

--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
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