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Tom P
The additional insurance premium costs around 80€ a year.
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Home insurance companies are becoming concerned and could end up not
insuring homes with solar panels on the roof. They don't like it when
the firefighters stand back and watch your home burn.
http://www.nctimes.com/business/article_8a32fb03-9e3f-58ca-b860-9c7fe1e28c7e.html
So how do you meter the grid feed-in, or don't you? Does the meter runOn Wed, 20 Jul 2011 18:38:53 +0200, Tom P wrote ...
On 07/20/2011 04:03 PM, Falcon wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 12:40:21 +0200, Tom P wrote ...
On 07/20/2011 11:50 AM, Falcon wrote:
[..][..]
In the UK the difference between the price paid to someone like you
with PV panels and the average household tariff is, therefore, around
28p/kWh (31- 32 Euro-cents/kWh).
That is a spectacular difference. Here the tariff has gone down from 33c
to 28c since 1st Jan. Household rates for power are around 22-24 cents
depending on the contract. There are also cheaper deals for flat rates
and upfront contracts.
Tom, could you clarify the figures you quoted earlier, please? I think I've
misunderstood something along the line.
I thought you said that 2,000 kWh had been delivered by your panels in the
first six months of operation (which is pretty good) and that your
supplier, RWE, had just transferred 526¤ to your bank account, I assume as
a result of sales of surplus energy to the grid.
At an average feed-in price of 30 cents per kWh that suggests you sold ~
1,750 kWh of the 2,000 kWh generated to the grid, leaving just 250 kWh
consumed by yourself. Only 41 kWh of your PV-supplied power per month is
used to power your home? That can't be right, surely? I thought only your
surplus energy should be sold to the grid? I get through an average of 40-
50 kWh per WEEK and my consumption is well below the UK national average.
Is your personal electricity consumption figure really that low? or have I
done the sums wrong?
And I'm really not sure how a difference of ~5 cents between the price you
get and the price you pay for grid-supplies can result in a good return on
an 11,000¤ investment.
Have I misunderstood something?
In a word - yes. Everything.
[..]
Picture:
House wiring --<--<--Meter 1 -<--x--connection point--<--- grid
PV installation -->--Meter 2-->-/
There are two completely separate meters, one for domestic consumption,
one for the grid feed-in.
The grid feed-in feeds 100% of the power generated into the grid via its
own meter. The 2,000 kwh is what the PV installation has fed into the
grid as measured by the meter. This has absolutely nothing to do with
the domestic consumption. None of the power generated by the PV
installation is used privately.
In fact, our domestic power supplier is not even the same company as the
grid utility. We have a contract for power with a local city. The city
has a contract with the grid utility that lets them provide me with
power. Quite likely the grid utility has a contract to sell power from
my PV installation somewhere else.
As far as the payments are concerned, the agreement is that the grid
utility company pays a monthly installment calculated on the basis of
the projected power generation. At the end of the year the meter is read
and the balance settled. The actual yearly figure will then be used as a
basis for the monthly installment for the following year. This is
exactly the same as the procedure used for monthly installment payments
for power consumption, just the other way round.
That means that the 526¤ payment is less than the power is worth that
has actually gone into the grid. The balance will be settled at the end
of the year.
I hope that this clarifies things.
Yes, thanks Tom. That explains it. As you probably guessed, normal domestic
PV installations work differently here in the UK. In your case the energy
you generate has no effect on the amount of power you draw from the grid,
in the UK the energy we generate reduces our reliance on supplies from the
grid.
I don't. The tariff price for electricity is around 20-25 c per kwhOn Wed, 20 Jul 2011 18:38:53 +0200, Tom P wrote ...
On 07/20/2011 04:03 PM, Falcon wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 12:40:21 +0200, Tom P wrote ...
On 07/20/2011 11:50 AM, Falcon wrote:
[..][..]
In the UK the difference between the price paid to someone like you
with PV panels and the average household tariff is, therefore, around
28p/kWh (31- 32 Euro-cents/kWh).
That is a spectacular difference. Here the tariff has gone down from 33c
to 28c since 1st Jan. Household rates for power are around 22-24 cents
depending on the contract. There are also cheaper deals for flat rates
and upfront contracts.
Tom, could you clarify the figures you quoted earlier, please? I think I've
misunderstood something along the line.
I thought you said that 2,000 kWh had been delivered by your panels in the
first six months of operation (which is pretty good) and that your
supplier, RWE, had just transferred 526€ to your bank account, I assume as
a result of sales of surplus energy to the grid.
At an average feed-in price of 30 cents per kWh that suggests you sold ~
1,750 kWh of the 2,000 kWh generated to the grid, leaving just 250 kWh
consumed by yourself. Only 41 kWh of your PV-supplied power per month is
used to power your home? That can't be right, surely? I thought only your
surplus energy should be sold to the grid? I get through an average of 40-
50 kWh per WEEK and my consumption is well below the UK national average.
Is your personal electricity consumption figure really that low? or have I
done the sums wrong?
And I'm really not sure how a difference of ~5 cents between the price you
get and the price you pay for grid-supplies can result in a good return on
an 11,000€ investment.
Have I misunderstood something?
In a word - yes. Everything.
[..]
Picture:
House wiring --<--<--Meter 1 -<--x--connection point--<--- grid
PV installation -->--Meter 2-->-/
There are two completely separate meters, one for domestic consumption,
one for the grid feed-in.
The grid feed-in feeds 100% of the power generated into the grid via its
own meter. The 2,000 kwh is what the PV installation has fed into the
grid as measured by the meter. This has absolutely nothing to do with
the domestic consumption. None of the power generated by the PV
installation is used privately.
In fact, our domestic power supplier is not even the same company as the
grid utility. We have a contract for power with a local city. The city
has a contract with the grid utility that lets them provide me with
power. Quite likely the grid utility has a contract to sell power from
my PV installation somewhere else.
As far as the payments are concerned, the agreement is that the grid
utility company pays a monthly installment calculated on the basis of
the projected power generation. At the end of the year the meter is read
and the balance settled. The actual yearly figure will then be used as a
basis for the monthly installment for the following year. This is
exactly the same as the procedure used for monthly installment payments
for power consumption, just the other way round.
That means that the 526€ payment is less than the power is worth that
has actually gone into the grid. The balance will be settled at the end
of the year.
I hope that this clarifies things.
Yeah, heavily subsidized.
I pay 7.9 eurocent to DONG plus (13.3 - 4.7) eurocent in Tax per KWh
== 16.5 eurocents. Next on top fixed costs for delivery: 5.4
eurocents. So 21.9 (incl. VAT)
You receive 526/2000 = 26.3 (incl VAT) eurocents per KWh
Why do you receive (26.3 - 7.9) more than marketprice ?
So how do you meter the grid feed-in, or don't you? Does the meter run
backwards if you produce more power than you use?
Where I live(in hurricane country), by far the largest peril to a PV system isTom P said:The additional insurance premium costs around 80€ a year.
Home insurance companies are becoming concerned and could end up not
insuring homes with solar panels on the roof. They don't like it when
the firefighters stand back and watch your home burn.
I don't. The tariff price for electricity is around 20-25 c per kwhOn 07/21/2011 01:31 AM, Falcon wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 18:38:53 +0200, Tom P wrote ...
On 07/20/2011 04:03 PM, Falcon wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 12:40:21 +0200, Tom P wrote ...
On 07/20/2011 11:50 AM, Falcon wrote:
[..][..]
In the UK the difference between the price paid to someone like you
with PV panels and the average household tariff is, therefore, around
28p/kWh (31- 32 Euro-cents/kWh).
That is a spectacular difference. Here the tariff has gone down from 33c
to 28c since 1st Jan. Household rates for power are around 22-24 cents
depending on the contract. There are also cheaper deals for flat rates
and upfront contracts.
Tom, could you clarify the figures you quoted earlier, please? I think I've
misunderstood something along the line.
I thought you said that 2,000 kWh had been delivered by your panels in the
first six months of operation (which is pretty good) and that your
supplier, RWE, had just transferred 526€ to your bank account, I assume as
a result of sales of surplus energy to the grid.
At an average feed-in price of 30 cents per kWh that suggests you sold ~
1,750 kWh of the 2,000 kWh generated to the grid, leaving just 250 kWh
consumed by yourself. Only 41 kWh of your PV-supplied power per month is
used to power your home? That can't be right, surely? I thought only your
surplus energy should be sold to the grid? I get through an average of 40-
50 kWh per WEEK and my consumption is well below the UK national average.
Is your personal electricity consumption figure really that low? or have I
done the sums wrong?
And I'm really not sure how a difference of ~5 cents between the price you
get and the price you pay for grid-supplies can result in a good return on
an 11,000€ investment.
Have I misunderstood something?
In a word - yes. Everything.
[..]
Picture:
House wiring --<--<--Meter 1 -<--x--connection point--<--- grid
PV installation -->--Meter 2-->-/
There are two completely separate meters, one for domestic consumption,
one for the grid feed-in.
The grid feed-in feeds 100% of the power generated into the grid via its
own meter. The 2,000 kwh is what the PV installation has fed into the
grid as measured by the meter. This has absolutely nothing to do with
the domestic consumption. None of the power generated by the PV
installation is used privately.
In fact, our domestic power supplier is not even the same company as the
grid utility. We have a contract for power with a local city. The city
has a contract with the grid utility that lets them provide me with
power. Quite likely the grid utility has a contract to sell power from
my PV installation somewhere else.
As far as the payments are concerned, the agreement is that the grid
utility company pays a monthly installment calculated on the basis of
the projected power generation. At the end of the year the meter is read
and the balance settled. The actual yearly figure will then be used as a
basis for the monthly installment for the following year. This is
exactly the same as the procedure used for monthly installment payments
for power consumption, just the other way round.
That means that the 526€ payment is less than the power is worth that
has actually gone into the grid. The balance will be settled at the end
of the year.
I hope that this clarifies things.
Yeah, heavily subsidized.
I pay 7.9 eurocent to DONG plus (13.3 - 4.7) eurocent in Tax per KWh
== 16.5 eurocents. Next on top fixed costs for delivery: 5.4
eurocents. So 21.9 (incl. VAT)
You receive 526/2000 = 26.3 (incl VAT) eurocents per KWh
Why do you receive (26.3 - 7.9) more than marketprice ?
depending on the supplier and the terms of the contract. Like I said,
the difference between the grid feed-in tariff and household tariff is
not large.
Also your calculation is not accurate. The feed-in tariff is currently
28c. The 526€ is a flat rate estimate of what the utility thinks the PV
installation has delivered in 6 months, based on the technical
specification.
If you want the precise gory details, they estimated 1896 kwh times
28c is 531€ minus 1€ per month for the meter rental makes 526€. The
monthly payments from now on are 75€ - almost exactly the same as what
we pay for electricity.
Our little grid-tied roof installation just went past 2,000 kwh. Despite
cool rainy weather over the last month, in just over 6 months operation
the installation is generating 25% above planned capacity.
I can see that concern but I am in favour of boosting this market, everyoneFalcon said:That surprises me. I suppose it is financially better for you (get 5cTom P said:On 07/21/2011 01:31 AM, Falcon wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 18:38:53 +0200, Tom P wrote ...
On 07/20/2011 04:03 PM, Falcon wrote:
On Wed, 20 Jul 2011 12:40:21 +0200, Tom P wrote ...
On 07/20/2011 11:50 AM, Falcon wrote:
[..][..]
In the UK the difference between the price paid to someone like you
with PV panels and the average household tariff is, therefore,
around
28p/kWh (31- 32 Euro-cents/kWh).
That is a spectacular difference. Here the tariff has gone down from
33c
to 28c since 1st Jan. Household rates for power are around 22-24
cents
depending on the contract. There are also cheaper deals for flat
rates
and upfront contracts.
Tom, could you clarify the figures you quoted earlier, please? I think
I've
misunderstood something along the line.
I thought you said that 2,000 kWh had been delivered by your panels in
the
first six months of operation (which is pretty good) and that your
supplier, RWE, had just transferred 526? to your bank account, I
assume
as
a result of sales of surplus energy to the grid.
At an average feed-in price of 30 cents per kWh that suggests you sold
~
1,750 kWh of the 2,000 kWh generated to the grid, leaving just 250 kWh
consumed by yourself. Only 41 kWh of your PV-supplied power per month
is
used to power your home? That can't be right, surely? I thought only
your
surplus energy should be sold to the grid? I get through an average of
40-
50 kWh per WEEK and my consumption is well below the UK national
average.
Is your personal electricity consumption figure really that low? or
have
I
done the sums wrong?
And I'm really not sure how a difference of ~5 cents between the price
you
get and the price you pay for grid-supplies can result in a good
return
on
an 11,000? investment.
Have I misunderstood something?
In a word - yes. Everything.
[..]
Picture:
House wiring --<--<--Meter 1 -<--x--connection point--<--- grid
PV installation -->--Meter 2-->-/
There are two completely separate meters, one for domestic consumption,
one for the grid feed-in.
The grid feed-in feeds 100% of the power generated into the grid via
its
own meter. The 2,000 kwh is what the PV installation has fed into the
grid
as measured by the meter. This has absolutely nothing to do with the
domestic consumption. None of the power generated by the PV
installation
is used privately.
In fact, our domestic power supplier is not even the same company as
the
grid utility. We have a contract for power with a local city. The city
has
a contract with the grid utility that lets them provide me with power.
Quite likely the grid utility has a contract to sell power from my PV
installation somewhere else.
As far as the payments are concerned, the agreement is that the grid
utility company pays a monthly installment calculated on the basis of
the
projected power generation. At the end of the year the meter is read
and
the balance settled. The actual yearly figure will then be used as a
basis
for the monthly installment for the following year. This is exactly
the
same as the procedure used for monthly installment payments for power
consumption, just the other way round.
That means that the 526? payment is less than the power is worth that
has
actually gone into the grid. The balance will be settled at the end of
the
year.
I hope that this clarifies things.
more
per kwh) but surely it would be more efficient for you to use as much of
the
generated power directly. Surely the meter could still be in the line and
calculations could happen in exactly the same way (I think this is the
way
it works here in UK)?
Yes, normal domestic PV installations work differently here in the UK. In
your case the energy you generate has no effect on the amount of power you
draw from the grid, in the UK the energy we generate reduces our reliance
on supplies from the grid.
I don't know what Tom consumes in a year, but if it's anywhere near the UK
average (3,300 kWh), the money he makes from his PV installation could
just
about offset his entire electricity bill. PV manufacturers here in the UK
usually estimate that PV installations will reduce their customers bills
by
around a third (around £110 p.a.) and their income from 'sales' to the
grid
could be as high as £1,000 per year. If those assumptions are correct, PV
installations should virtually offset an average household's entire
electricity AND gas bill.
As I said earlier, what concerns me is not necessarily the viability of PV
on a personal level, it's the effect they have on electricity prices for
those who cannot afford them.
vaughn said:I envy you. I am the sort of guy who might have a system like that, even though
the my business eduction informs me that they seldom make economic sense. But
nagging details get in the way. Unfortunately, I live in hurricane country,
which raises engineering and insurance issues with PV installations. Further, I
know that many do it, but I just can't bring myself to drill holes through a
perfectly good roof.
Congratulations!
Vaughn
Pete C. said:The roof would be my absolute last resort for a PV installation
location.
John Gilmer said:The "environmental" types may not want to heat this, but in a situation like a
solar array, when it doesn't make "economic sense" the odds are once you do
the cost and environmental accounting it will not make environmental sense
either.
In the short term, "private solar" is best for those who often (because of
storms and such) end up "off grid" whether they like it or not.
In hot climates, the power load tends to peak in response to the solar load.
Thus, solar power would seem to be a nature supplement.
Let's not forget about the loss of income revenue or interest paid out
each year for the money used.
11,000 x 5% per annum = 550/ per annum off the salesman's glory. We
won't discuss the maintenance costs of repair and replacement.
Please ignore the m II trolling me constantly. He uses many different
names and does anything in his power to disrupt groups, everywhere.
