Standby Generator Starting in cold weather

[RF Dude]

Scenario 1: Emergency diesel generator in a non-insulated outdoor
enclosure. In winter, the 1500W coffee maker (also known as a water jacket
heater) is brewing continuously since the thermostat is set to ~27C/ 82F.
Big waste of energy and a high cost for this parasitic power.

Scenario 2: Air cooled Lister generator set is available as surplus. Love
to buy it, but they were originally mounted indoors where the room
temperature kept them warm. I don't have such a room in my house. If
mounted outdoors, what options exist to keep it warm and ready to start when
required?

Scenario 3: Natural Gas (vapor) engine. Does this engine need to be kept
warm like the diesel? I'm thinking the coffee maker temperature can be
severly reduced to say 0C/32F or even lower?

So the overall question is how to reduce the parasitic operating cost of a
standby generator in cold weather while it is waiting for a power failure?

RF Dude

 

[Dale Farmer]

Scenario 1: Emergency diesel generator in a non-insulated outdoor
enclosure. In winter, the 1500W coffee maker (also known as a water jacket
heater) is brewing continuously since the thermostat is set to ~27C/ 82F.
Big waste of energy and a high cost for this parasitic power.

Scenario 2: Air cooled Lister generator set is available as surplus. Love
to buy it, but they were originally mounted indoors where the room
temperature kept them warm. I don't have such a room in my house. If
mounted outdoors, what options exist to keep it warm and ready to start when
required?

Scenario 3: Natural Gas (vapor) engine. Does this engine need to be kept
warm like the diesel? I'm thinking the coffee maker temperature can be
severly reduced to say 0C/32F or even lower?

So the overall question is how to reduce the parasitic operating cost of a
standby generator in cold weather while it is waiting for a power failure?

RF Dude

INsulate the enclosure Work to make the enclosure more airtight,
Perhaps some ducting with a blow-openable vent shutter. If the thing
doesn't actually need to be auto start and can await you going out to
set some stuff up, a propane fueled water heater in the coolant loop
that you go out and manually fire up prior to cranking.
Insulate the battery box and put in a tiny heater there.

--Dale

 

[m Ransley]

I dont understand your thoughts, do you need to keep your car warm to?
I dont. Run synthetic oil if you are, water cooled warm up fast.

 

[SQLit]

Scenario 1: Emergency diesel generator in a non-insulated outdoor
enclosure. In winter, the 1500W coffee maker (also known as a water jacket
heater) is brewing continuously since the thermostat is set to ~27C/ 82F.
Big waste of energy and a high cost for this parasitic power.

Scenario 2: Air cooled Lister generator set is available as surplus. Love
to buy it, but they were originally mounted indoors where the room
temperature kept them warm. I don't have such a room in my house. If
mounted outdoors, what options exist to keep it warm and ready to start when
required?

Scenario 3: Natural Gas (vapor) engine. Does this engine need to be kept
warm like the diesel? I'm thinking the coffee maker temperature can be
severly reduced to say 0C/32F or even lower?

So the overall question is how to reduce the parasitic operating cost of a
standby generator in cold weather while it is waiting for a power failure?

RF Dude

Every diesel I have ever worked on or around was a pain in the ass to start
if it was cold. Every water cooled engine had a "coffee maker". Every air
cooled one had a dip stick heater to keep the oil warm.

You might consider that if you were to disconnect the 1500 watt heater, on a
really cold night with no power you could be in for a long haul getting the
beastie started. Especially with NG. NG does not vaporize well at cold
temps. Once warmed up they seem to run fine.

Insulate the enclosure and the coffee maker would cycle to keep the engine
at temp. No insulation and it will run most of the time.

Lastly check with the engine manufacture and see if you could lower the
temp.

 

[[email protected]]

INsulate the enclosure Work to make the enclosure more airtight,
Perhaps some ducting with a blow-openable vent shutter. If the thing
doesn't actually need to be auto start and can await you going out to
set some stuff up, a propane fueled water heater in the coolant loop
that you go out and manually fire up prior to cranking.
Insulate the battery box and put in a tiny heater there.

--Dale

A farmer friend of mine has a sure-fire way of starting his big White
Field Boss if a surprise snow storm catches him without the block
heater plugged in and he has to blow the lane to let the milk truck
in. He just pulls the air intake, fires up his BernzoMatic soldering
torch, and lays it in the intake for about 3 minutes. Then it's just
hit the starter, and go.

 

[Bruce in Alaska]

Scenario 1: Emergency diesel generator in a non-insulated outdoor
enclosure. In winter, the 1500W coffee maker (also known as a water jacket
heater) is brewing continuously since the thermostat is set to ~27C/ 82F.
Big waste of energy and a high cost for this parasitic power.

Scenario 2: Air cooled Lister generator set is available as surplus. Love
to buy it, but they were originally mounted indoors where the room
temperature kept them warm. I don't have such a room in my house. If
mounted outdoors, what options exist to keep it warm and ready to start when
required?

Scenario 3: Natural Gas (vapor) engine. Does this engine need to be kept
warm like the diesel? I'm thinking the coffee maker temperature can be
severly reduced to say 0C/32F or even lower?

So the overall question is how to reduce the parasitic operating cost of a
standby generator in cold weather while it is waiting for a power failure?

RF Dude

Answer1: As any diesel engine operator knows, it isn't the temp of the
cooling system or the base oil, that stops a diesel from firing up at
low temps. It is the temp of the AIR going in the Intake Manifold.
Rip out that "coffee Maker" and attach the Old Ladies 1000 Watt Hair
Dryer to the Intake Manifold and give it a few seconds to blow HOT
Air down the intake pipe, then roll over the engine, an POP your running
on the second compression cycle. WHy do you think Long Haul Truckers
carry Hair Dryers in their rigs? It is not to dry their hair at
truckstops....Just what do you think the purpose of a GLOWPLUG is?

Answer2: See answer1: I have seen Listers started, in -20F weather,
in unheated enclosers, in less than 30 Seconds, using answer1. Hot
air is your friend......to bad you can't fly Rush Limbaugh down when
you need to start up...... (joke).....

Answer3: Never had a Propane or NG powered engine so can't say...

See Answer1 for a good way to keep standby operating costs to a very
minimum. The Hair Dryer only runs for a max of 90 Seconds at 1Kw
and the engine will be running with very little sweat. Use a good
Multiviscosity OIl like Delo 400 15W40 or if your really cold (below
-50F) 5W40 and forget about all the other BS. Mix you fuel 50/50
with Diesel #1/Diesel#2 and your good to below -40F. In alaska we call
that WinterMix diesel.

Bruce in alaska

 

[daestrom]

Every diesel I have ever worked on or around was a pain in the ass to
start
if it was cold. Every water cooled engine had a "coffee maker". Every air
cooled one had a dip stick heater to keep the oil warm.

You might consider that if you were to disconnect the 1500 watt heater, on
a
really cold night with no power you could be in for a long haul getting
the
beastie started. Especially with NG. NG does not vaporize well at cold
temps. Once warmed up they seem to run fine.

Perhaps you're thinking of propane. It doesn't vaporize easily when its 0F
or below. But 'natural gas' (mostly methane) is a vapor at much lower
temperatures and wouldn't be a problem.

daestrom

 

[William P.N. Smith]

Scenario 1: Emergency diesel generator in a non-insulated outdoor
enclosure. In winter, the 1500W coffee maker (also known as a water jacket
heater) is brewing continuously since the thermostat is set to ~27C/ 82F.

Can you turn this heater down? You don't want to keep the generator
_hot_ all the time, just warm enough to start when it's cold.

My air-cooled 8.2KW NG generator's never failed to start or run it's
weekly exercise cycle in a Boston suburb, if that helps. I use
Mobil-1 synthetic 5W30, FWIW...

 

[RF Dude]

Thanks for all the reply's. Lets recap for the diesels:

1) Turn down or shut off completely the 1500W kettle. Perhap control it
with an external thermo that turns it on at say 32F/0C or even a few degrees
colder. Experiment a bit to find the temperature that will still reliably
start the genny. Increase the engine warm up time before applying a load.
2) Use synthetic oil, or a 150W oil pan heater to allow the machine to turn
quickly when the starter engages.
3) Use the engine glow plug. But I haven't found an engine controller yet
that will automate this process for unattended operation. Say use the glow
plug under control of a pre-heat timer. The controller would engage this
pre-heat only under 40F for instance. I have seen engine controllers that
have a glow plug button, but an operator must be present to engage this
(presumably after a no-start condition).
4) Sounds like I'll have to monitor the battery very well. Trying to run a
glow plug for 3o seconds AND crank the engine would require a healthy
battery.
5) An insulated engine enclosure with louvres that seal when engine doesn't
run is the best approach, but will add cost.

Would putting 120V trace tape heating on the intake manifold along with some
insulation assist in a hot first gulp of air?

A bus driver told me they used to use Either to start them in the dead of
winter. But the engines weren't too crazy about it.

Gasoline engines start at very cold temperatures, so I can't imagine why a
NG engine wouldn't do the same. Looking at the Kohler 40 kW machine, the
V-6 is the same engine as in a GM Astro van. So one would think that only
the coldest prarie days need the coffee maker, just like a car.

 

[Dale Farmer]

A farmer friend of mine has a sure-fire way of starting his big White
Field Boss if a surprise snow storm catches him without the block
heater plugged in and he has to blow the lane to let the milk truck
in. He just pulls the air intake, fires up his BernzoMatic soldering
torch, and lays it in the intake for about 3 minutes. Then it's just
hit the starter, and go.

A friend has a US navy surplus diesel genny with a small gasoline tank,
fuel pump and a spray nozzle into the air intake. Turn on the pump, which
also cranks a small magneto to provide sparks for the igniter, and suddenly
you have a fire in the air intake. Wait a minute, then crank the engine.
This was referred to as the arctic weather add on kit in the manual.

--Dale

 

[RF Dude]

I have to hand you the award... this is the best suggestion yet... if not a
funny one!

 

[SQLit]

Perhaps you're thinking of propane. It doesn't vaporize easily when its 0F
or below. But 'natural gas' (mostly methane) is a vapor at much lower
temperatures and wouldn't be a problem.

daestrom

Absolutely correct. I fat fingered the letters. LP is what I was thinking
of.
I had a LP on top of a 5K hill above sea level that gave us fits every
winter.

 

[[email protected]]

Thanks for all the reply's. Lets recap for the diesels:

1) Turn down or shut off completely the 1500W kettle. Perhap control it
with an external thermo that turns it on at say 32F/0C or even a few degrees
colder. Experiment a bit to find the temperature that will still reliably
start the genny. Increase the engine warm up time before applying a load.
2) Use synthetic oil, or a 150W oil pan heater to allow the machine to turn
quickly when the starter engages.
3) Use the engine glow plug. But I haven't found an engine controller yet
that will automate this process for unattended operation. Say use the glow
plug under control of a pre-heat timer. The controller would engage this
pre-heat only under 40F for instance. I have seen engine controllers that
have a glow plug button, but an operator must be present to engage this
(presumably after a no-start condition).
4) Sounds like I'll have to monitor the battery very well. Trying to run a
glow plug for 3o seconds AND crank the engine would require a healthy
battery.
5) An insulated engine enclosure with louvres that seal when engine doesn't
run is the best approach, but will add cost.

Would putting 120V trace tape heating on the intake manifold along with some
insulation assist in a hot first gulp of air?

A bus driver told me they used to use Either to start them in the dead of
winter. But the engines weren't too crazy about it.

Gasoline engines start at very cold temperatures, so I can't imagine why a
NG engine wouldn't do the same. Looking at the Kohler 40 kW machine, the
V-6 is the same engine as in a GM Astro van. So one would think that only
the coldest prarie days need the coffee maker, just like a car.

The engine will start cold if you can get the LP flowing. You need
heat for the evaporator.

 

[Me]

A bus driver told me they used to use Either to start them in the dead of
winter. But the engines weren't too crazy about it.

VERY BAD Idea, that.....Ether is a good way to kill te engine ....
especially is you don't understand the reasons that it works and why it
would be a VERY BAD Idea.........


Me

 

[Newby]

VERY BAD Idea, that.....Ether is a good way to kill te engine ....
especially is you don't understand the reasons that it works and why it
would be a VERY BAD Idea.........


Me

Please enlighten us (me) why ether is a bad idea.

Thanks.

 

[Steve Spence]

Scenario 1: Emergency diesel generator in a non-insulated outdoor
enclosure. In winter, the 1500W coffee maker (also known as a water jacket
heater) is brewing continuously since the thermostat is set to ~27C/ 82F.
Big waste of energy and a high cost for this parasitic power.

Scenario 2: Air cooled Lister generator set is available as surplus. Love
to buy it, but they were originally mounted indoors where the room
temperature kept them warm. I don't have such a room in my house. If
mounted outdoors, what options exist to keep it warm and ready to start when
required?

Scenario 3: Natural Gas (vapor) engine. Does this engine need to be kept
warm like the diesel? I'm thinking the coffee maker temperature can be
severly reduced to say 0C/32F or even lower?

So the overall question is how to reduce the parasitic operating cost of a
standby generator in cold weather while it is waiting for a power failure?

RF Dude

air cooled lister? hmmm.... all the ones I've seen are water cooled.

We start our detroit diesel 2-71 (outdoors at -40) with no preheater,
just a shot of ether. Hard on starters. Boxing it in and putting a
propane water heater inline with the cooling system.

Our neighbors propane ford powered 30kw unit won't start in cold temps
unassisted.

 

[Steve Spence]

I dont understand your thoughts, do you need to keep your car warm to?
I dont. Run synthetic oil if you are, water cooled warm up fast.

diesels need heat to start. With no glow plugs, they can be a bear to
get running once the mercury gets south of rediculous.

 

[Ignoramus5455]

Scenario 1: Emergency diesel generator in a non-insulated outdoor
enclosure. In winter, the 1500W coffee maker (also known as a water jacket
heater) is brewing continuously since the thermostat is set to ~27C/ 82F.
Big waste of energy and a high cost for this parasitic power.

The way I start my diesel generator is as follows. I flip the "glow
plug" switch on for a minute, and then flip the START switch.

Scenario 2: Air cooled Lister generator set is available as surplus. Love
to buy it, but they were originally mounted indoors where the room
temperature kept them warm. I don't have such a room in my house. If
mounted outdoors, what options exist to keep it warm and ready to start when
required?

Do they have glow plugs?

Scenario 3: Natural Gas (vapor) engine. Does this engine need to be kept
warm like the diesel? I'm thinking the coffee maker temperature can be
severly reduced to say 0C/32F or even lower?

So the overall question is how to reduce the parasitic operating cost of a
standby generator in cold weather while it is waiting for a power failure?

Note that it is not very easy to have a simple standby heater that
would not be prone to disastrous failures (such as fires due to, say,
mice building a next next to it etc).

If your diesel does not have glow plugs, and does not start from hot
air blown into air intake, I would invest in some sort of propane
torch powered from propane tanks. Could be the safest and cheapest
solution. This assumes that your diesel lives in some enclosure.

i

 

[[email protected]]

VERY BAD Idea, that.....Ether is a good way to kill te engine ....
especially is you don't understand the reasons that it works and why it
would be a VERY BAD Idea.........


Me

Then explain to me why MANY deisel engines came from the factory with
ether start???
Works good on a deisel if done right - but it IS murder on spark
ignition gasoline engines.

 

[Ignoramus5455]

Then explain to me why MANY deisel engines came from the factory with
ether start???
Works good on a deisel if done right - but it IS murder on spark
ignition gasoline engines.

It works on diesels designed for it, and can ruin diesels NOT designed
for it. My Onan DJE is not designed for ether start and there are
numerous warnings against using ether. It has glow plugs instead.

i
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