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small 400V pnp sot-23 transistor, xxxTA94, etc.

W

Winfield Hill

The A92 or mpsa92 is a popular 300V pnp transistor in a
TO-92 package, with a number of sot-23 SMD versions also
manufactured, most commonly the mmbta92. Most of these
300V transistors have breakdown voltages of 400 to 450V,
in my experience, and on occaision I've used them in
designs right up to 300V. But I didn't realize until
recently that there was an official 400V version, the
mpsa94, with a number of sot-23 offerings: e.g., the
mmbta94, cmpta94, hmbta94 and fhta94.

However, a quick look failed to turn up any distributor
carrying any of these parts. Does anyone here have any
experience with these, or know of other 400V sot-23 pnp
transistors that might be readily available?
 
W

Winfield Hill

Winfield Hill wrote...
The A92 or mpsa92 is a popular 300V pnp transistor in a
TO-92 package, with a number of sot-23 SMD versions also
manufactured, most commonly the mmbta92. Most of these
300V transistors have breakdown voltages of 400 to 450V,
in my experience, and on occaision I've used them in
designs right up to 300V. But I didn't realize until
recently that there was an official 400V version, the
mpsa94, with a number of sot-23 offerings: e.g., the
mmbta94, cmpta94, hmbta94 and fhta94.

However, a quick look failed to turn up any distributor
carrying any of these parts. Does anyone here have any
experience with these, or know of other 400V sot-23 pnp
transistors that might be readily available?

Ah, I found the Zetex FMMT558 and FMMT560 sot-23 parts,
with 400 and 500V ratings. How'd I miss those? Hmm,
Fairchild offers their FMMT560 rated at 60V -- oops!
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

The A92 or mpsa92 is a popular 300V pnp transistor in a
TO-92 package, with a number of sot-23 SMD versions also
manufactured, most commonly the mmbta92. Most of these
300V transistors have breakdown voltages of 400 to 450V,
in my experience, and on occaision I've used them in
designs right up to 300V. But I didn't realize until
recently that there was an official 400V version, the
mpsa94, with a number of sot-23 offerings: e.g., the
mmbta94, cmpta94, hmbta94 and fhta94.

However, a quick look failed to turn up any distributor
carrying any of these parts. Does anyone here have any
experience with these, or know of other 400V sot-23 pnp
transistors that might be readily available?

Digikey shows >1K in stock of both Panasonic 2SB14880PA and Zetex
FMMT558TA both in full and broken reels. A bit pricey, though (
0.282/2K and 0.1728/3K vs. 0.06/3K for the jellybean MMBTA92).



Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
W

Winfield Hill

Spehro Pefhany wrote...
Digikey shows >1K in stock of both Panasonic 2SB14880PA
and Zetex FMMT558TA both in full and broken reels.

The Panasonic isn't a sot-23, but the Zetex fmmt558 is an
ideal replacement for the A92. According to the datasheet
it has less capacitance, a higher fT, and better gain over
a wider current range. What's not to like? Later today
I'll make the change in my 2.2kV amplifier and find out.
A bit pricey, though (0.282/2K and 0.1728/3K vs. 0.06/3K
for the jellybean MMBTA92).

Sometimes money is no object. That's easy to say when
only 11 cents is involved. :) Well, actually, with 16
per board it's $1.76, but that's on a large PCB with 600
parts and a $400 per board cost in a run of 40 boards.
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Spehro Pefhany wrote...

The Panasonic isn't a sot-23,

Oops. Not even SMT, but at least a pleasant ~0.1" pitch through-hole
package with good power dissipation. ;-)
but the Zetex fmmt558 is an
ideal replacement for the A92. According to the datasheet
it has less capacitance, a higher fT, and better gain over
a wider current range. What's not to like? Later today
I'll make the change in my 2.2kV amplifier and find out.

Sounds like an interesting circuit.
Sometimes money is no object. That's easy to say when
only 11 cents is involved. :) Well, actually, with 16
per board it's $1.76, but that's on a large PCB with 600
parts and a $400 per board cost in a run of 40 boards.

I didn't think it would matter much to you, but it's interesting that
there's a 280% price increase for a 25% improvement in Vceo.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
F

Fred Bartoli

Spehro Pefhany a écrit :
On 13 Oct 2006 02:58:10 -0700, the renowned Winfield Hill

I didn't think it would matter much to you, but it's interesting that
there's a 280% price increase for a 25% improvement in Vceo.

But the Zetex part is a 825% increase in Vceo over the Fairchild's one,
for 0% increase in part#.

Let see the scene:
Design some nice 400V gadget...
Prototype, blah...
Run into prod.
First runs OK.
Purchase dep.: Oh, but why would we pay Zetex that much. Fairchild has
the same one. No pb.

Prod: Build new boards...
Board: Kaboum!
Board: Kaboum!
Board: Kaboum!
Board: Kaboum!

Designer: what part did you get mounted?
Prod: FMMT560
Board: still Kaboum!
Designer: wait! That's not possible.
Prod: Yes, but the board doesn't say so: Kaboum!
Designer: Are you sure it's FMMT560?
Purchase: Sure! Look at the delivery note.
Designer: scratch...
Board: Kaboum!

2 weeks later:
Customer: Hey, where are my boards?
Board: Kaboum!
Sales dep.: Oh, your order must have got lost by the postal service. We
never received it. We'll send you all our stock tomorrow.
Boss: What's the f..k, designer? You're fired.
Designer: but...
Board: Kaboum!
....
....
Tech: Idea!...FMMT560->MMBT560... Eureka!
Tech: Look! That FMMT560 is a 60V part!
Purchase dep.: Those designers are really nothing but morons.
Prod: Hmmm, but the first board runs worked OK.
Boss: You know, components have some tolerances. First ones must have
been very good.
Prod: Amen.
Purchase dep. : Amen.
QA dep.: Amen.
QA dep.: Ouch, but that's a huge Vceo variation. Those FMMT560 are
really crap. Mark them as forbidden, or don't use them with more than 6V
VCE.
....

Zetex: Why don't we sell our nice transistors anymore?

....
....

Win: Too bad... Zetex has just dropped that wonderful FMMT560 I was fond of.
 
W

Winfield Hill

Fred Bartoli wrote...
Spehro Pefhany a écrit :

But the Zetex part is a 825% increase in Vceo over the
Fairchild's one, for 0% increase in part#.

Let see the scene:
Design some nice 400V gadget...
Prototype, blah...
Run into prod.
First runs OK.
Purchase dep.: Oh, but why would we pay Zetex that much.
Fairchild has the same one. No pb.

Prod: Build new boards...
Board: Kaboum!
Board: Kaboum!
Board: Kaboum!
Board: Kaboum!

Designer: what part did you get mounted?
Prod: FMMT560
Board: still Kaboum!
Designer: wait! That's not possible.
Prod: Yes, but the board doesn't say so: Kaboum!
Designer: Are you sure it's FMMT560?
Purchase: Sure! Look at the delivery note.
Designer: scratch...
Board: Kaboum!

2 weeks later:
Customer: Hey, where are my boards?
Board: Kaboum!
Sales dep.: Oh, your order must have got lost by the postal service.
We never received it. We'll send you all our stock tomorrow.
Boss: What's the f..k, designer? You're fired.
Designer: but...
Board: Kaboum!
...
...
Tech: Idea!...FMMT560->MMBT560... Eureka!
Tech: Look! That FMMT560 is a 60V part!
Purchase dep.: Those designers are really nothing but morons.
Prod: Hmmm, but the first board runs worked OK.
Boss: You know, components have some tolerances. First ones must
have been very good.
Prod: Amen.
Purchase dep. : Amen.
QA dep.: Amen.
QA dep.: Ouch, but that's a huge Vceo variation. Those FMMT560 are
really crap. Mark them as forbidden, or don't use them with more
than 6V VCE.
...

Zetex: Why don't we sell our nice transistors anymore?

...
...

Win: Too bad... Zetex has just dropped that wonderful FMMT560
I was fond of.

LOL, nice story. Yes, I saw the amazing FUBAR with the Zetex
and Fairchild FMMT560 a few days ago; it raised my eyebrows!
 
J

Joerg

Hello Winfield,
The Panasonic isn't a sot-23, but the Zetex fmmt558 is an
ideal replacement for the A92. According to the datasheet
it has less capacitance, a higher fT, and better gain over
a wider current range. What's not to like? Later today
I'll make the change in my 2.2kV amplifier and find out.

If it wouldn't take more than a usec to turn off I'd really like it as well.

If you'd buy 10k of them you could get them for 12c ;-)
 
W

Winfield Hill

Joerg wrote...
Hello Winfield,

If it wouldn't take more than a usec to turn off I'd really
like it as well.

I'm sure both the fmmt558 and the A92 can turn off in well
under a usec, if it's current sinking or steering you're
thinking of. But do you mean the output has to slew 400V
in under 1us, or > 4x10^8V/s? Assuming an external node
capacitance of 5pF plus an estimated 3pF for the transistor
over most of the excursion, the load current would have to
be i >= C dV/dt = 3.2mA. Since that's quite reasonable,
it would seem these transistors may meet your requirement.
If you'd buy 10k of them you could get them for 12c ;-)

Indeed. It's the nature of high-voltage series-cascode
applications to use a lot of transistors per circuit. For
example, in my circuit I used four for each amplifier, but
I should have used five. If I had added the rail-current
monitoring circuit I envisioned, it would have been 15 per
amplifier. If I had then beefed up the HV amplifier to a
full push-pull configuration, to improve speed, it could
have meant 35 of the A92 or A42 transistors per amplifier
(thanks for machine assembly). And if I had then increased
the voltage range to beyond 2.5kV, it would have been...
 
J

Joerg

Hello Win,
I'm sure both the fmmt558 and the A92 can turn off in well
under a usec, if it's current sinking or steering you're
thinking of. But do you mean the output has to slew 400V
in under 1us, or > 4x10^8V/s? Assuming an external node
capacitance of 5pF plus an estimated 3pF for the transistor
over most of the excursion, the load current would have to
be i >= C dV/dt = 3.2mA. Since that's quite reasonable,
it would seem these transistors may meet your requirement.

I was thinking about usage in a boost or SEPIC converter. A microsecond
can be quite painful when the whole conduction phase is 5usec or so.
There are some FETs but the smaller ones in SOT23 or SOT223 are mostly
from EU companies and they can be an absolute pain to deal with from
over here. May last attempt at that was with the BSP297 and after two
hours on the phone I vowed to never do that again. Being fluent in
German did not help one bit, they simply couldn't get them to us. Or
maybe sales volume didn't matter...
Indeed. It's the nature of high-voltage series-cascode
applications to use a lot of transistors per circuit. For
example, in my circuit I used four for each amplifier, but
I should have used five. If I had added the rail-current
monitoring circuit I envisioned, it would have been 15 per
amplifier. If I had then beefed up the HV amplifier to a
full push-pull configuration, to improve speed, it could
have meant 35 of the A92 or A42 transistors per amplifier
(thanks for machine assembly). And if I had then increased
the voltage range to beyond 2.5kV, it would have been...
That's the beauty of today's jelly-bean parts. People say that our youth
doesn't have the available resources to build electronics projects.
That's nonsense. Sure we had a radio store in the next town (one hour by
bicycle) but one of those transistors would have cost a fortune. There
was no Digikey.
 
J

Jonathan Kirwan

<snip>
That's the beauty of today's jelly-bean parts. People say that our youth
doesn't have the available resources to build electronics projects.
That's nonsense.
<snip>

Well, in some ways it is better; in others worse. I used to be able
to just go to any of several local stores and persuse through table
after table of parts and components in a warehouse kind of place; or
go through Radio Shack (even before Tandy bought them) and see most of
the entire store with parts; and so on. I seem to recall at least two
or three RS stores in the city area (good part sources), an Allied
Radio electronics warehouse store with a huge resource I could go
through by hand; a United Radio store with parts everywhere; and two
other "surplus" electronics stores I would frequent.

ALL (every single one) of these are essentially gone. The RS stores
are no longer a resource to speak of, even though there are more of
them now. There is a Norvac Electronics store here. And it has parts
-- but high priced "replacement brand" (read: NTE) parts for the
larger part of it. Some interesting things once in a while.

This, in a city metro area with now 1.5 million people.

Of course, there are really great new options, too. I would never
have been able to afford quality boards made for 1, 2, or 4 off kinds
of things. My selection of parts are fantastic, and so on. So many
more things are sincerely possible to consider realistically doing
than there is time for, as a hobbyist with family pressures and a
profoundly autistic child can manage.

However, I'm finding that transistors the size of salt grains without
the possibility of any markings (unless they placed the letters on
them pixel-atom by pixel-atom), the need for more expensive soldering
tools and magnifiers (as I age), and the relative higher difficulties
of actually finding and using parts I can put on a protoboard meaning
that I really need those board houses more.

Some of it, though, at least for young kids, is that access to those
who know a little about electronics (and I'm not talking about
experts, just folks with some "playing around" experience who are
there when a kid has a simple question coming to mind) seems to be in
a diminishing ratio. There are more folks in the business, but fewer
neighbors to ask, it seems. Certainly, when I was growing up there
were many with at least some military experience in electronics you'd
meet and others, too. I used to also have several neighbors in an
easy 4-5 mile bicycle riding radius of me working on building their
own telescopes. Also, into rocketry. And so on. I can't say I know
where any of that is going on within many more miles of here, now. If
at all. (I've lived in the same community my entire life.)

On the other hand, there is the internet, too. So that's to the good
side of this.

Both parents working, or one working two jobs, the intrusion of TV and
gaming systems into our time, the hours applied per individual adult
and child for hobby learning has diminished, I suspect. People don't
build their own barns, replace their own rooftops, repair their own
plumbing or lines coming into the house, etc. They hire it, if they
can. A transition from broad to specialized knowledge, a dependance
upon a surrounding supports in society, etc.

I used to know lots and lots of neighbors by the hobbies they were
into, in fact. "Oh. That's Joe. He's really into model planes a
lot." That kind of thing. Now, often when I ask a parent or adult I
know, "What kind of hobbies do you like to do?" I get a blank stare,
much more often than I ever used to.

Jon
 
J

Joerg

Hello Jon,
Well, in some ways it is better; in others worse. I used to be able
to just go to any of several local stores and persuse through table
after table of parts and components in a warehouse kind of place; or
go through Radio Shack (even before Tandy bought them) and see most of
the entire store with parts; and so on. I seem to recall at least two
or three RS stores in the city area (good part sources), an Allied
Radio electronics warehouse store with a huge resource I could go
through by hand; a United Radio store with parts everywhere; and two
other "surplus" electronics stores I would frequent.

ALL (every single one) of these are essentially gone. The RS stores
are no longer a resource to speak of, even though there are more of
them now. There is a Norvac Electronics store here. And it has parts
-- but high priced "replacement brand" (read: NTE) parts for the
larger part of it. Some interesting things once in a while.

This, in a city metro area with now 1.5 million people.

Our RS has shut down a few years ago. Because a, gasp, cell phone store :-(

Of course, there are really great new options, too. I would never
have been able to afford quality boards made for 1, 2, or 4 off kinds
of things. My selection of parts are fantastic, and so on. So many
more things are sincerely possible to consider realistically doing
than there is time for, as a hobbyist with family pressures and a
profoundly autistic child can manage.

However, I'm finding that transistors the size of salt grains without
the possibility of any markings (unless they placed the letters on
them pixel-atom by pixel-atom), the need for more expensive soldering
tools and magnifiers (as I age), and the relative higher difficulties
of actually finding and using parts I can put on a protoboard meaning
that I really need those board houses more.

Same here. My last designs contain lots of 0402. Very tough, even with
#3 glasses plus magnifier.

Some of it, though, at least for young kids, is that access to those
who know a little about electronics (and I'm not talking about
experts, just folks with some "playing around" experience who are
there when a kid has a simple question coming to mind) seems to be in
a diminishing ratio. ...


Well, they should learn using usenet :)))

... There are more folks in the business, but fewer
neighbors to ask, it seems. Certainly, when I was growing up there
were many with at least some military experience in electronics you'd
meet and others, too. I used to also have several neighbors in an
easy 4-5 mile bicycle riding radius of me working on building their
own telescopes. Also, into rocketry. And so on. I can't say I know
where any of that is going on within many more miles of here, now. If
at all. (I've lived in the same community my entire life.)

Ham radio club meetings are a good opportunity to find those who still
build stuff from scratch. That's how I found mentors when I was a kid
because there was nobody else to ask in our neighborhood. Having a ham
radio license helps even more. You can go onto the local 2m channel and
ask. Chances are that someone will respond "Oh, that's a tough one but
I've got a Tek scope. Come on over and we'll figure it out.".

On the other hand, there is the internet, too. So that's to the good
side of this.

Both parents working, or one working two jobs, the intrusion of TV and
gaming systems into our time, the hours applied per individual adult
and child for hobby learning has diminished, I suspect. People don't
build their own barns, replace their own rooftops, repair their own
plumbing or lines coming into the house, etc. They hire it, if they
can. A transition from broad to specialized knowledge, a dependance
upon a surrounding supports in society, etc.

No with me. I've laid lots of tile, re-did a bathroom, then another,
then another. Many times hiring out results in huge costs. A neighbor
was just quoted a whopping $33k (!) just to replace a deck.

Ok, we did hire out the re-roofing but we needed a rather complicated
metal roof. Plus my back isn't that good and it gave out when I helped
on a re-roof project for church outreach. We were so close to the ridge
that I pushed myself too far, happens easily when roofing. Couldn't get
up the next morning.

I used to know lots and lots of neighbors by the hobbies they were
into, in fact. "Oh. That's Joe. He's really into model planes a
lot." That kind of thing. Now, often when I ask a parent or adult I
know, "What kind of hobbies do you like to do?" I get a blank stare,
much more often than I ever used to.

Sad, most people just hang out in front of the TV. That's their "hobby".
In our neighborhood it's a lot better. People build cars, several
airplanes, huge sea-going sailboats etc. There isn't one weekend where
you don't hear some drills or sanders going.
 
R

Robert Latest

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 17:43:28 GMT,
in Msg. said:
That's the beauty of today's jelly-bean parts. People say that our youth
doesn't have the available resources to build electronics projects.
That's nonsense. Sure we had a radio store in the next town (one hour by
bicycle) but one of those transistors would have cost a fortune. There
was no Digikey.

The youth certainly has resources, more than ever before, but no
incentive. When I was 15 I built my own stereo amp and loudspeakers
because I wanted to have one, and commercial stuff was a lot more
expensive. Now a kid can buy a $10 PC speaker set that sounds about as
good as my amp back then.

A must-have must-build category of stuff were things that blink and
generate noise. Nowadays we have computers and other cheap gadgets that
do more noisy blinking than we can stand.

Another driving force behind hobby electronics was wireless
communication. I vividly remember my first home-built matchbox-sized FM
transmitter. What delight! The fact that operating it was kind of
illegal was icing on the cake. Now every kid has a damn cell phone with
which it can call every other kid in the industrialized part of the
globe within seconds.

Where's the fun in doung stuff yourself if you can just buy it better
and cheaper? I mean, it's still fun, but the main driving force for kids
is gone.

The first computer games we played we had to invent and code ourselves
because there were no games, at least not on the three $10000 computers
my school had in 1985.

Of course nowadays 2-year-olds have those ultra-cool wooden bicycles
which hadn't yet been invented back then.

robert
 
J

Joerg

Hello Robert,

The youth certainly has resources, more than ever before, but no
incentive. When I was 15 I built my own stereo amp and loudspeakers
because I wanted to have one, and commercial stuff was a lot more
expensive. Now a kid can buy a $10 PC speaker set that sounds about as
good as my amp back then.

A must-have must-build category of stuff were things that blink and
generate noise. Nowadays we have computers and other cheap gadgets that
do more noisy blinking than we can stand.

I must say that I still do not have enough spare time to build all the
stuff that we could use around here. Not even the stuff on the honey-do
list: A decent level meter for X10, a non-mechanical pool timer that
doesn't cost $500, low power AM transmitter to get web radio to other
radios, X10 receivers that really work, and so on.

Another driving force behind hobby electronics was wireless
communication. I vividly remember my first home-built matchbox-sized FM
transmitter. What delight! The fact that operating it was kind of
illegal was icing on the cake. ...


Shhhht... :)

... Now every kid has a damn cell phone with
which it can call every other kid in the industrialized part of the
globe within seconds.

Where's the fun in doung stuff yourself if you can just buy it better
and cheaper? I mean, it's still fun, but the main driving force for kids
is gone.

Oh, there would be. If I were a kid today I'd still do what I had done
back in school. Build the biggest honking amp that a 15 amp circuit
could sustain. Except this time it would be class-D for even more oomph.
Instead of scavenging tubes and TO3 transistors I'd be prying FETs out
of discarded computer power supplies.

The first computer games we played we had to invent and code ourselves
because there were no games, at least not on the three $10000 computers
my school had in 1985.

Of course nowadays 2-year-olds have those ultra-cool wooden bicycles
which hadn't yet been invented back then.

They often just have to many toys, don't have to be creative anymore.
When I grew up my favorite place was grandpa's shop.
 
E

Eeyore

Joerg said:
Hello Robert,


They often just have to many toys, don't have to be creative anymore.
When I grew up my favorite place was grandpa's shop.

Life's too easy these days.

We also used to have to fix our own cars for example !

Graham
 
J

Joerg

Hello Graham,
Life's too easy these days.

We also used to have to fix our own cars for example !

I still change the oil myself. That way the plug doesn't get
over-torqued by some kid and I let the oil drain out overnight. Down to
the last drop. So, the new oil stays clear for a much longer time. Also,
I can be sure that only the good stuff is put in :)
 
J

Jonathan Kirwan

Life's too easy these days.

We also used to have to fix our own cars for example !

I still do. At least, those things that I can put my hands on. I
pull my own axles to replace bearings, etc. Just can't trust many
others to do the job right, anymore.

Jon
 
E

Eeyore

Jonathan said:
I still do. At least, those things that I can put my hands on. I
pull my own axles to replace bearings, etc. Just can't trust many
others to do the job right, anymore.

I do basic routine stuff but I don't have off-road parking so it's a bit limited
compared to earlier days when I even rebuilt engines.

Graham
 
J

Joerg

Hello Graham,
I do basic routine stuff but I don't have off-road parking so it's a bit limited
compared to earlier days when I even rebuilt engines.

During my university days we took a busted transmission out of an Opel
(Vauxhall) on the German side of the border, hand carried it across the
border to my apartment in the Netherlands, through the entrance of a
pub, up three stories via staircase, repaired it, hand carried it back
to Germany and put it in. All with the car parked in the road (but onto
the curb so I could fit underneath).
 
J

Jim Thompson

Hello Graham,


I still change the oil myself. That way the plug doesn't get
over-torqued by some kid and I let the oil drain out overnight. Down to
the last drop. So, the new oil stays clear for a much longer time. Also,
I can be sure that only the good stuff is put in :)

Probably been 30 years since I last changed my own oil ;-)

...Jim Thompson
 
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