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slightly OT WHERE and WHAT to buy for a good radiation meter?

R

Robert Macy

I did a google search and way too many of the listings either produced
dead websites [of items I really wanted!], or Amazon, or eBay -
neither of which I want to use. Amazingly, google's own ads came up
with nonexistant websites?!

There must be some industrial/commercial manufacturer, or some
bonafide outlet that sells a nice portable meter.

Anybody have one, or know what to watch out for, or where to buy one?

PS: I'm not afraid of assembling a kit, but kits I've seen either
don't exist (?) or have NO housing and I can't believe somebody
offshore hasn't done an effective meter all for less than this fussing
around.
 
R

Robert Baer

Robert said:
I did a google search and way too many of the listings either produced
dead websites [of items I really wanted!], or Amazon, or eBay -
neither of which I want to use. Amazingly, google's own ads came up
with nonexistant websites?!

There must be some industrial/commercial manufacturer, or some
bonafide outlet that sells a nice portable meter.

Anybody have one, or know what to watch out for, or where to buy one?

PS: I'm not afraid of assembling a kit, but kits I've seen either
don't exist (?) or have NO housing and I can't believe somebody
offshore hasn't done an effective meter all for less than this fussing
around.
RAD meters were the rage when everyone was hyper over the a-bomb.
Dosimeters, and RAD meters are available via surplus markets,and you
have snubbed the two major sources.
Hell, even GM tubes are rare as the helium used is a government
controlled substance.
Even the big boys in the oil patch have problems in that area.
 
M

miso

I did a google search and way too many of the listings either produced
dead websites [of items I really wanted!], or Amazon, or eBay -
neither of which I want to use. Amazingly, google's own ads came up
with nonexistant websites?!

There must be some industrial/commercial manufacturer, or some
bonafide outlet that sells a nice portable meter.

Anybody have one, or know what to watch out for, or where to buy one?

PS: I'm not afraid of assembling a kit, but kits I've seen either
don't exist (?) or have NO housing and I can't believe somebody
offshore hasn't done an effective meter all for less than this fussing
around.

I have a Ludlum model 3 with a 44-6 tube. Does the job for me. I got it
on ebay sans cable for about $100. Ludlum sold me the cable for about
$20 and included a manual. The cable used C connectors. Not BNC, but C.
I figure it was worth $20 rather than trying to make one. I was at a DOE
facility a few years ago and compared it to their calibrated meter on a
test source. Accurate enough for me.

The deal is you will need way better sensitivity than the old civil
defense meters you find at swap meets. The model 3 can sense background
radiation, typically 5 to 15 uR/hr. That won't show up on an old civil
defense meter, though you should probably hear the clicks.

The sensors are used in two manners. That is it has a gamma shield you
can open or close. Just look it up on the Ludlum webiste:

I notice there are a lot of model 3 on ebay without tubes. The meters
themselves are pretty simple. I suspect the tubes are what fails, which
is why they are sold without tubes. It might pay to see what Ludlum
charges for a new 44-6 or whatever you want. I doubt the meters
themselves are defective.

I have never found any place hotter than 100uR/hr. That was out in the
Mojave around Kelbaker, where they have a few uranium mines.

You are free to pay the full retail price if you don't want to use Ebay.

The nice thing about Ludlum unlike more of the civil defense
manufactured gear, Ludlum is still in business and they support the old
products.

If you are looking for hot rocks, you probably want to get a UV flashlight.
 
J

Jon Kirwan

<snip>
I have never found any place hotter than 100uR/hr. That was out in the
Mojave around Kelbaker, where they have a few uranium mines.
<snip>

Have you tried it up in a commercial airplane at 37,000'
inside the spallating aluminum tube you ride in? I did, some
years ago. Quite a difference from ground level.

Jon
 
M

Martin Riddle

Robert Macy said:
I did a google search and way too many of the listings either produced
dead websites [of items I really wanted!], or Amazon, or eBay -
neither of which I want to use. Amazingly, google's own ads came up
with nonexistant websites?!

There must be some industrial/commercial manufacturer, or some
bonafide outlet that sells a nice portable meter.

Anybody have one, or know what to watch out for, or where to buy one?

PS: I'm not afraid of assembling a kit, but kits I've seen either
don't exist (?) or have NO housing and I can't believe somebody
offshore hasn't done an effective meter all for less than this fussing
around.

Get the one called the 'Inspector' comes in different variations. They
can be calibrated and traceable.
If you looking for measuring specific kinds of radiation get one with
the changeable filters.


Cheers
 
M

miso

Have you tried it up in a commercial airplane at 37,000'
inside the spallating aluminum tube you ride in? I did, some
years ago. Quite a difference from ground level.

Jon

Well, actually no. I'm trying to think of a scenario where I can whip
out a geiger counter in a commercial airplane without the passengers
thinking I'm a jihadist.

"We have now reached cruising altitude. You may now use electronic
devices, but beat the shit out of anyone with a geiger counter."
 
J

Jon Kirwan

Well, actually no. I'm trying to think of a scenario where I can whip
out a geiger counter in a commercial airplane without the passengers
thinking I'm a jihadist.

I got some very serious stares. And I was asked to turn it
off, as well. Which I did. However, the silly reason I was
given as their "justification" was that they didn't want
anything that might interfere with their communications
system (radios have IF oscillators.) I informed them that
there was no oscillator here and no means by which it could
interfere (I'd built this geiger counter myself.) But I also
turned it off.

See if you can sneak it aboard. hehe. It's fun.
"We have now reached cruising altitude. You may now use electronic
devices, but beat the shit out of anyone with a geiger counter."

hehe.

One of the flights, after the above event, I was sitting next
to a United Airlines pilot. After some conversation I asked
him if they'd ever checked out the radiation levels during
flight. He told me, "Yeah. Actually, they had us wearing
badges for a while." I asked, "What were the readings? Did
you ask?" He said, "Yeah. And they wouldn't tell me, except
that it was 'safe'." We talked a little longer and I could
tell he wasn't particularly happy about not being told, too.
Apparently, they never did disclose the readings to him.

Made me even more curious, especially after seeing my GM unit
counter go wild up there. (By the way, I used a series string
of NE-2s as the HV regulator for that unit.)

Jon
 
J

Jon Kirwan

<snip>
and avoid wearing or carrying anything that glows in the dark.

Crap. I'll probably get shot without warning for wearing my
tritium dial watch, then. ;)

Jon
 
J

Jon Kirwan

I think you meant local oscillators. Any oscillation at IF is called
instability.

Yes. That's what I meant. It was me conflating "IF frequency"
with "local oscillator" into a mush. Cross-purposes between
us at an end now. Lesson learned.

I was merely pointing out that a receiver's local oscillator
can act like a weak CW xtr, because that was a reason given
to me to stop me from using any personal receiver at some
point in my frequent flying career.

This all goes back quite some years when this was an issue
for me.

I used to listen to tower traffic when it was offered by the
flight services I used. I learn better technique for when I
pilot a small plane in controlled airspace. (And yes, I got
some nice laughs from time to time.) Then I had that option
removed by those same services. So I began bringing my own
receivers on board. Then perhaps a year or two later they
told me I couldn't use those receivers inside the plane --
even when sitting at the gate and not moving. I had a nice
discussion with appropriate "officials" and got pretty much
the same boilerplate -- the radios may "interfere" with their
communication. This coupe de grâce against my listening
pleasure all happened BEFORE 9/11.

To bring this full circle, the GM unit I brought on board did
not have any "intentional" local oscillators in it. But I'm
sure I'd get the same boilerplate about local oscillators
causing interference if I bought one on board. When I did
bring mine, it was BEFORE bringing a personal receiver had
become an issue. Still, I eventually was asked to shut it off
as I was explaining readings to interested nearby passengers
who were quite curious. ;)

Jon
 
R

Robert Macy

I got some very serious stares. And I was asked to turn it
off, as well. Which I did. However, the silly reason I was
given as their "justification" was that they didn't want
anything that might interfere with their communications
system (radios have IF oscillators.) I informed them that
there was no oscillator here and no means by which it could
interfere (I'd built this geiger counter myself.) But I also
turned it off.

See if you can sneak it aboard. hehe. It's fun.


hehe.

One of the flights, after the above event, I was sitting next
to a United Airlines pilot. After some conversation I asked
him if they'd ever checked out the radiation levels during
flight. He told me, "Yeah. Actually, they had us wearing
badges for a while." I asked, "What were the readings? Did
you ask?" He said, "Yeah. And they wouldn't tell me, except
that it was 'safe'." We talked a little longer and I could
tell he wasn't particularly happy about not being told, too.
Apparently, they never did disclose the readings to him.

Made me even more curious, especially after seeing my GM unit
counter go wild up there. (By the way, I used a series string
of NE-2s as the HV regulator for that unit.)

Jon

So, how much MORE is it at the space station? Or, even outside the van
Allen Belts?
 
J

Jon Kirwan

So, how much MORE is it at the space station? Or, even outside the van
Allen Belts?

I believe the details within and where within the Van Allen
belts (I think they discovered something new about them
recently, by the way) have no bright line definitions. It's
constantly changing and some places are better than others,
given that. The trailing dark-side edge pulses in bursts as
the lines develop and then cross each other and release
energy. I'm not sure there is any specific place to be
positioned with security in mind. The Van Allen belts
themselves pose their own radiation hazards.

I have very little real knowledge about current details. I
remember the Forbush effect (I think first noticed as a
reduction in cosmic ray events due to coronal mass ejections
from the sun and later, I think, applied to the effects of
the solar wind on arriving cosmic rays -- which cuts them in
about half, memory serving, but depending on where in the
solar cycle the sun is at.) I'm not sure how much effect the
Van Allen belts have on cosmic rays, though the atmosphere
certainly has a huge impact as they arrive. But probably the
radius of gyration deflects most of them.

I think galactic cosmic rays and solar proton events from the
sun are the biggest concerns.

But I generally hear it's horrible -- not something to do for
extended times. One of the guys I worked with for years had
spend years himself as part of a team designing satellite
systems. He talked about how they start out neutral, but are
impacted by energetic particles, which split charges with
some going to the satellite and the rest going to ions that
are dislodged for a distance then re-attracted back but
somewhere you don't want them to stick as "brown crud" that
accumulates in bad places. Charge and heat accumulation are
serious problems, I gathered. As far as astronauts go, the
ISS (I read) experiences 150mSv/yr for astronauts inside. But
the Skylab astronauts experienced over 500mSv/yr rates. The
new Mars rover is taking data there, not sure what the
results are (or if any are published yet.)

From:

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=1224&page=384

You can see that the global average background radiation is
on the order of 1mSv/yr. Elsewhere, I read figures of
1.5mSv/yr and slightly higher. And it depends on where you
are, of course. But that gives an idea for comparison

A Mars mission is estimated to result in a 1 Sv dose, which
seems consistent with the Skylab rate.

There are no known effective measures. Even lead is mostly
vaccuum. Liquid hydrogen isn't bad, nor water -- both are
needed anyway. But best would be a nice big asteroid with the
astronauts nicely in the center of it. Active shielding
(magnetics and electrostatics mixed) may help, but no one has
fielded any serious testing of the idea.

In interstellar space the problem is even more acute.

By the way, I just found this link:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2818404

Which is germane to my point about measuring radiation in an
airplane at 37,000' altitude.

"The dose equivalent to air carrier crewmembers from galactic
cosmic radiation was estimated for each of 32 nonstop flights
on a variety of routes to and from, or within, the contiguous
United States. Flying times were from 0.4 to 13 hours. The
annual dose equivalents received on the flights ranged from
0.2 to 9.1 mSv (20 to 910 mrem), or 0.4 to 18% of the
recommended annual limit for occupational exposure of an
adult."

This is entirely consistent with the measurements I took on
that flight I mentioned. I found that in a 2hr flight you
receive about 1 year's ground level dose. My estimate,
because I didn't calibrate things beforehand, is approximate.
I would say that you get about 0.5mSv to 1mSv per hour of
flight at altitude, given my readings.

In short, every two hours of altitude flying gives one year's
sea level dosage. Nice.

The really FUN thing to do is to take your geiger counter and
show it to a few passengers BEFORE boarding and then show it
to them AFTER reaching altitude. They will FREAK! The level
is about 4000 times higher. And if you teach them about the
switch that selects the range before they board, they will
see that you switch ranges a few times when at altitude and
it scares them. hehe. It's a "must do" when you get a chance.

Jon
 
J

Jon Kirwan

<snip>
This is entirely consistent with the measurements I took on
that flight I mentioned. I found that in a 2hr flight you
receive about 1 year's ground level dose. My estimate,
because I didn't calibrate things beforehand, is approximate.
I would say that you get about 0.5mSv to 1mSv per hour of
flight at altitude, given my readings.

In short, every two hours of altitude flying gives one year's
sea level dosage. Nice.

The really FUN thing to do is to take your geiger counter and
show it to a few passengers BEFORE boarding and then show it
to them AFTER reaching altitude. They will FREAK! The level
is about 4000 times higher. And if you teach them about the
switch that selects the range before they board, they will
see that you switch ranges a few times when at altitude and
it scares them. hehe. It's a "must do" when you get a chance.
<snip>

I just checked my notes from 20 years ago (when I did this.)
Had to go look for the notebook. My memory is exaggerated. I
got a little over two orders of magnitude increase, not over
three orders as I just stated. It was several hundred times
greater than what I measured at sea level before taking off.

Still impressive, though!!

Jon
 
B

Bill Martin

On Sun, 5 May 2013 12:35:24 -0700 (PDT), Robert Macy
SNIP
When you get into otter space, you're dealing with x-ray, proton, and
electron fluxes:

Not to mention the water hazard! :)
 
Jeff Liebermann said:

If you don't own a Geiger counter, you may be able to get a reading
cheaply from those who do. Just spend a couple of bucks on a ticket for
your local public transit system:

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2013/03...-on-metra-train-after-detecting-nuclear-risk/

Although I must admit that the above is only one data point. It would be
interesting if more people who have had similar medical procedures made a
point of taking the subway (or equal) home, to see if that happens every
time.

Somewhat related: This chart http://xkcd.com/radiation/ attempts to give
some scale to the amount of radiation produced from various sources, from
"eating one banana" to "chest CT scan" to "ten minutes next to the
Chernobyl reactor core". There is some discussion of it at
http://blog.xkcd.com/2011/04/26/radiation-chart-update/ . The chart was
first published after the Fukushima Dai-ichi power plant meltdown.

Matt Roberds
 
B

Bill Martin

Sorry, but I'm otto bad puns at the moment.

In about 1976, I was diving in Monterey Bay near Monastary Beach. My
dive buddy's idea of fun was to poke at a sleeping otter with a stick.
Eventually, the otter became irritated, dived under us, and on the
ascent, bit me in my posterior through my wet suit. After that
experience, I advocate that all otters should be launched into otter
space.

<https://www.google.com/search?q=space+otter&tbm=isch>
Yikes, it looks crowded out there!
 
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