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Simon alarm question...

S

Sam

My girlfriend just installed a Simon alarm sysem and I was appalled to
find that the alarm panel also held the siren. I'd have expected any
alarm system to have an external siren. Essentially when turning off
the alarm system I got blasted by the siren.

What are my options? I really want an alarm system where the siren is
far away from the panel, so my ears don't end up ringing again.

My girlfriend has until Thursday to cancel the alarm system. (They
gave her free installation...just a few sensors and a keyfob or two,
but she has to pay $31 a month for two years for monitoring). Should
I have her cancel and get an alarm from someone else? Did she get a
good or bad deal on this system?

Also the alarm panel is publically viewable right when one walks in
the front door. Is that a bad idea?

Thanks!
 
F

fly in the ointment

Sam wrote
My girlfriend just installed a Simon alarm sysem and I was appalled to
find that the alarm panel also held the siren. I'd have expected any
alarm system to have an external siren.
Yup

What are my options? I really want an alarm system where the siren is
far away from the panel, so my ears don't end up ringing again.

My girlfriend has until Thursday to cancel the alarm system. (They
gave her free installation...just a few sensors and a keyfob or two,
but she has to pay $31 a month for two years for monitoring). Should
I have her cancel and get an alarm from someone else? Did she get a
good or bad deal on this system?

Also the alarm panel is publically viewable right when one walks in
the front door. Is that a bad idea?

Yeah, it's a horrible idea.
Sam, you get what you pay for. In this case, I think she paid too much.
Dump that dog (the system, not the girlfriend) if you can, and call a
reputable local alarm company to install a real security system. It should
cover all perimeter openings, have motion for backup, and the keypad and
siren need to be separate from the alarm control computer, which should be
hidden.
js
 
T

thesatguy

Sam said:
My girlfriend just installed a Simon alarm sysem and I was appalled to
find that the alarm panel also held the siren. I'd have expected any
alarm system to have an external siren. Essentially when turning off
the alarm system I got blasted by the siren.
Then you expected wrong because none of the companies in this area and many
other areas install any outside sounding devices period. I will be happy to
install one but there is a considerable additional charge. Local laws
require the alarm company to come to the premises within an hour and shut
off any outside alarm so all the companies that are 8-5 operations simply
don't put in outside sounding devices. Most of the low-dollar installs have
the sounder located on the wall directly above the keypad so its still going
to be loud near the keypad.
What are my options? I really want an alarm system where the siren is
far away from the panel, so my ears don't end up ringing again.
A remote siren can be added to the Simon panel - at an additional cost.
My girlfriend has until Thursday to cancel the alarm system. (They
gave her free installation...just a few sensors and a keyfob or two,
but she has to pay $31 a month for two years for monitoring). Should
I have her cancel and get an alarm from someone else? Did she get a
good or bad deal on this system?
Its a typical low-dollars install - thats how they are all done.
Also the alarm panel is publically viewable right when one walks in
the front door. Is that a bad idea?
Usually the keypad is located near the entry door. This particular system
in an all-in-one keypad so its all in one unit. Many of the low-dollars
installs have the keypad on the front of the wall with the control unit
directly behind it which also affords no protection against somebody
defeating it. The newer Simon, the Allegro comes in two units so if
somebody smashes the keypad the remote control still can signal the central
station.

Many companies require a three year contract so pricewise she got the
standard deal. I offer the exact same thing for $24.95 a month on a three
year contract with no installation charge - it has a loud outside siren. So,
my deal is about the same. Many companies offer similar deals at similar
prices. These are all SECURITY systems - they are not BURGLAR alarm
systems. I offer a whole house burglar alarm system - the price usually
runs around $3500. for installation and the monthly maintenance starts at
$39.95. It covers the entire house and provides a heck of a lot better
protection. But its not free.

Many people simply cannot afford a complete burglar alarm system and opt for
a low-cost security system which is better than no system at all.
 
J

Jackcsg

So a "Security System" doesn't detect burglars, but a "Burglar Systems"
does? I never knew that. All these years, and I've been installing the wrong
systems? Does an "Access Control" system allow access, or prevent it? WTF.
That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a while here. What else you got?

Jack
 
R

Rick Lalonde

Toemaytoe Toemahhtoe
I offer my customers the entry-level Intrusion Alert System
as well as the more expense Intrusion Detection System.
The second one comes with bigger decals for the windows!
 
J

Jackcsg

I see, bigger stickers...that makes sense. But now it's a Intrusion Alert
System? Security System, Burglar Alarm, Intrusion Alert System...Man I'm
confused, I thought they were Alarm Systems. Can someone please tell me WTF
I'm installing. I don't want to have to change all my literature...again.
Frank must know what they're called....

Jack
 
J

Jackcsg

So is it the bigger the sticker, the more expensive the system? Or the other
way? I have seen dealers who put allot of stickers, which aren't big at all,
but just many of them. Does this mean their systems were cheap, but give a
big impression?

Jack
 
F

Frank Olson

Jackcsg said:
I see, bigger stickers...that makes sense. But now it's a Intrusion Alert
System? Security System, Burglar Alarm, Intrusion Alert System...Man I'm
confused, I thought they were Alarm Systems. Can someone please tell me WTF
I'm installing. I don't want to have to change all my literature...again.
Frank must know what they're called....


Personally... I always like Security System... That covers about
everything... Call 'em what you want to... smoke 'em if you got 'em...

:)
 
T

thesatguy

"> >Local laws require the alarm company to
WOW, let me know where you're located. I can make ood money re-writing those
ordinances. Most municipal ordinances don't require someone from the alarmco
to come out within an hour to reset a sounding alarm. They just require the
siren to meet noise ordinances and have a set reset time.

The ordinances say it must be cut off in one hour period. If the automatic
shutoff worked all the time there wouldn't be any need to go out there. If
it doesn't cut off like its supposed to then the alarm company is the
responsible party to make sure it cuts off; that means you send someone out
there and the 8-5 guys can't.
No, most consumers are inundated with limited security systems and not
comprehensive security systems. After all, you also offer those cheap systems
and thus are perpetuating the belief that security is cheap.
No way do we offer them.
This is what we do...
If you call and insist thats what you want I will go put it in and collect
the $24.95 per month but I won't offer you that system and will strongly
suggest you get our standard system.
And, on your contract I will cross out all those things you have declined:
[a] In order to get your front door and back door hooked up (leaving the
rest of the house completely unprotected).
One cheap infrared heat sensor (instead of several reliable infrared
motion sensors).
[c] A 4 amp hour battery that can hardly power system for two or three hours
(instead of the 7amp hour battery that will keep it going four or five
days).
[d] Indoor siren mounted on wall above keypad (or you pay the additional
charge for a loud one outside).

This is what we won't do if you have the $24..95 per month system...
[a]We won't go out there when the alarm goes off and stand guard until you
finally arrive.
We won't go out and wait for your glass company.
[c]We won't go out and board it up and/or wait for you to send someone to
board it up.
[d]We won't go out and unlock your door and/or gate for you because you have
lost the keys.
[e]We won't go out and lock your door because somebody walked off and left
it unlocked.
[f]We won't drive to your house and pound on your door until you answer
because you changed your phone to a non-published listing. We will call the
numbers you supplied and thats it.
[g]We won't call any other people who aren't on your call list because its
3am and you don't want to get up and take care of it.
[h]We won't go and fix your phone because its dead and the telephone company
claims it 'may' be our fault. If the telco actually proves the trouble to
be in our equipment and/or wiring then we will go and verify this and make
any necessary repairs.
We won't provide any maintenance service after 5pm and/or before 8am or
on any holiday without an additional service charge.
[j]We don't provide any backup service in case your phone is dead.
[k]We don't offer you any loss prevention warranty.
[l]We won't send you and/or fax to you a weekly opening/closing report for
free. We will provide an irregular report after entry if your insurance
company requests it.
[m]We won't provide you a UL certificate on any non-UL job.
[n]We won't send you a pseudo-official looking installation report for your
home owner's insurance policy saying your system meets the necessary
requirements for any discounts because it does not in most cases. We will
send you a detailed installation report showing exactly what was installed
and if your insurance company is happy with that then you're okay.
[o]We won't say you have a complete fire alarm system because you bought a
house some electrician put two smoke detectors in and our keypad has a FIRE
button on it. The FIRE button is NOT hooked up unless you are paying an
additional fee for that service.
[p]We will not go out and round up your guard dogs that have gotten loose.
[q]We will not go out and trim the weeds that are blowing back and forth
across the path of your outdoor photoelectric beams. These areas will be
zoned off until you correct this.
[r]We will not go out and roundup ducks, geese or peacocks that are walking
around in the path of your outdoor microwave detection sensors. These areas
will be zoned off until you correct this.
We will not go out and relocate pigs, cows, horses, goats or sheep that
have wandered into a restrcited area. This area will be zoned off until
they are removed.
[t]We will not go out and attempt to locate and/or take in tow any
watercraft that have become disconnected from their land based alarm system
connections. We will also not repair for free any such connections that
have been destroyed because the subscriber or his representative did not
manually disconnect them properly. If necessary we will notify the Coast
Guard of any possible hazard to navgation if we become advised of any such
condition..
We will not attempt to right and/or alter the position of, and/or summon
any maintenance vehicle to attempt to right and/or alter the position of,
any overturned aircraft. If necessary we will notify the local fire
fighting authority of any leaking fuel and/or any other hazardous condition
we may become aware of. We will not go out and attempt any re-connect of
any land-based alarm system devices while any such aitcraft remains
overturned and/or in any unsuitable position without an additional charge
being agreed to in advance.
[v]We will not go out and re-connect any shipping containers, either frixed
or mobile and/or any portable buildings which may have become disengaged
after closing.
[w]We will not make any repairs to any customer-owned equipment, property,
and/or devices.
[x]We will not work upon any equipment thought to contain bees.
[y]We will not work in any building or buildings that contain uncontrolled
bats, snakes, or spiders.
[z]We will not remove any guests, invited or uninvited, from any amusement
machines, amusement devices, amusement rides and/or amusement attractions
without specific instructions from the client.
[aa]We will not alter and/or attempt to alter the operation or inoperation
of any elevator, moving stairway, or tram.
[bb]We will not dig, trench and/or excavate any area or areas thought to be
unsafe for any such activity.
[cc]We will not be responsible for the mysterious disappearrance of any
outside telephone callbox and/or any one-way or two-way radio antenna or
antennas. We will also not be responsible for any mysterious disappearrance
of any equipment located upon and/or within any ATM or ATM related device.
[dd]We will not be responsible for any non-functionality of any equipment
and/or devices or the troubleshooting of any non-functionality of any
equipment and/or devices due to the connection of any of our alarm system
equipment or devices to any customer-provided DSL and/or ADSL transmission
arrangement.
[ee]We will not go out and secure and/or attempt to secure any ATM or ATM
building or housing which has been reported to us as unsecured.

If you have any of our full-service systems we would do all of these things
in most cases and many times for free simply as a courtesy to the
subscriber.

Low dollars, 'very limited security' systems are the accepted industry
practice in this area and many other areas too..
Its clearly very 'bad' practice but its the accepted practice and I will
offer you the same exact system for the same price as everyone else because
I have been in business for 40 years and plan to stay in business a while
longer. You won't get a second keypad that you don't need anyway installed
on the wall four feet from the primary one just because two other companies
offer a free second keypad - if you are of the mind that you require a
second un-necessary keypad I will say I am too busy to do the job and
suggest you call somebody else.

So, three times a week you go out and put one of these 'industry-accepted'
systems in for free. And at the end of each month you have 15 or so new
customers instead of one or two.. If you do that you can still stay in
business to install a complete system for $3500 a couple times a month for
customers who really want to be protected.

There is only so much you can do for free and its getting to be less and
less everyday.
 
T

thesatguy

If it doesn't cut off like its supposed to
How do you shut it off? If the user isn't there, what do you do, cut the
wires? Also what happens if the system isn't monitored or is a DIY system?
Hopefully the ordinances hold the user to the same standards that they impose
on the alamco.
Either the alarm system owner or the alarm company is held responsible and
will get the ticket.
You put your extention ladder up against the wall and disconnect it. If it
was DIY or a customer owned system they would get the ticket.
[a]We won't go out there when the alarm
goes off and stand guard until you finally
arrive.

So if a consumer pays for a full perimeter system, you'll go out and stand
guard until they get home? Same for , [c], [d].

If the customer pays for 'full-service' they get full service period. Makes
no difference what system they have.
We'll go out when the alarm goes off; we'll wait for the police to arrive;
we'll wait for the customer's glass co; we'll board the place up and leave a
note with the case # or we'll wait for the customer.
[e]We won't go out and lock your door
because somebody walked off and left
it unlocked.

How do you know someone forgot to lock their door?
The cops will call and tell you the front door is unlocked and people are
walking around inside the building or the sub may have left two or three
overhead doors wide open, etc.
[f]We won't drive to your house and pound
on your door until you answer because
you changed your phone to a
non-published listing. We will call the
numbers you supplied and thats it.

Wait, are you saying you do all that for all the consumers who purchase a full
perimeter system?
[g]We won't call any other people who
aren't on your call list because its 3am
and you don't want to get up and take
care of it.

I don't understand why, if a consumer pays you for monitoring, you'll provide
different service because they didn't buy a full perimeter system? If they
decide to go with 80% of your recommendations, I assume you cut off the
notification (as mentioned above) at 4am? So your monitoring isn't being
provided as a separate service, but rather a means of forcing consumers to buy
more security from you for fear of losing monitoring services.

We don't offer 'monitoring service' at all.

We offer a full-service package that includes whatever needs to be included
on a 36 month lease contract starting at $39.95 per month.

We 'have' a 'limited-service' optional package that includes the exact same
things the other 176 companies in this area offer (including ADT now):
control panel,one keypad,two or three door sensors, one cheapest infrared
sensor, one cheapest indoor sounding device, plugin transformer, phone
block - all installed free in the method of our choice. We will even hook
the phone line up to the phone block for free although ADT charges $70.
extra for that service. We won't give you a second keypad for free. The
limited-service includes the free installation, free repair of anything that
needs fixing (8-5 mon-fri - any other time there will be a charge), and
standard 24/7 monitoring during the term of the 36 month lease contract for
$24.95 per month.
[n]We won't send you a pseudo-official
looking installation report for your home
owner's insurance policy saying your
system meets the necessary
requirements for any discounts because
it does not in most cases.

Excuse me? Unless an insurance company has issued a conditional risk rating on
the premise, and established the level of security required, almost all typical
residential simply want one of the following three items:
1. Installed alarm system
2. Installed alarm system with monitoring.
3. Installed alarm system with fire reporting.
Beyond that, only rated premises dictate the level of security required.
Although some carriers have now include verbiage to the effect that it was
installed by a licensed contractor (if required by state regulation), few (very
few) specify the level of security required. I've dealt with risk rated
carriers a lot, and that's an entirely different type of issuance and
requirement standards than the typical home owner's policy.
In this state you are NOT entitled to any discount on your homeowner's
policy unless you have a security system that includes all the entry points
into the house AND the system is monitored. There is no discount allowed
for a single smoke detector or two smoke detectors or keypads that have FIRE
buttons. None of these things equal the required fire detection/reporting
system. However, many homeowners rely on phony installation certificates to
obtain insurance.

On commercial policies they have a clause buried deep inside that says
"insured has installed an approved alarm system and can produce certificate
for same upon demand". This item catches everybody if you ever find it
necessary to file a claim otherwise you may never know about it. Most
people have never ever read their insurance policies or at the very most
they looked over the cover sheet and assume that its what they think it is
supposed to be. Since most people don't have a clue about the different
types of alarm systems if they do read over the insurance policy they
automatically assume that they have an 'approved' alarm system. Very seldom
does anyone ask.

Insurance is almost always purchased from an agent who asked a series of
questions and then generates a standard policy for you based on your
responses.
The agents always say...
"Do you have an alarm system?"
"Is it a monitored system?"
"Do you have smoke detectors?"
"Are they hooked up to the system?"
"Do all the exterior doors have deadbolt locks?"
"Is there an attached garage?" "Is there a detached garage?"
"Is the house in good condition?"
"Do you have any pets that would be considered exotic or dangerous?"

If its a commercial property they also ask...
"Do you have a sprinkler system?"
"Do you have burglar bars?"
"Do you have outside lighting?"
"Does anyone live in the premises?"
"Is there any cooking on the premises?"
"Is there a suitable fence around the outside of the premises?" "How high?"
"Does it have barbed wire or any anti-climb barrier on it?". "Is it always
locked when you are not present?"

These questions are intended to quickly determine which policy you need but
you are the one who must ascertain that the policy they send you has no
mistakes because if the policy contains any errors or any misrepresentation
of the facts then the policy may not be any good. They send a cover sheet
that says YOU have ten days to make sure everything is right or call it to
their attention if anything is wrong so YOU are the one who gets the blame
and YOU are the one who cannot collect.

I have seen clients get into lawsuits over and over due to these questions
because most people think "do you have an alarm system?" means 'any' alarm
system and they answer yes automatically when many systems do not qualify
and they never find this out until its time to file a claim. If you obtain
insurance by giving the wrong answer its fraud and your policy is no good
even if you believed the answers to be correct.

Some typical examples of systems that do NOT qualify:
Any do it yourself system
Any system that was in the house when you moved in unless you have had a
qualified technician service it and make sure it is working properly
Any system you 'know' isn't working properly
Any system that does not cover all points where entry may be 'easily' gained
(- this specifically includes rotten panels at the bottom of overhead doors
where somebody gets into your garage and steals your tools or insured
vehicle.)
Any system that does NOT cover the detached garage where isured property is
kept
Any system that is supposed to be 'approved' but isn't actually 'approved' -
some policies don't explain 'approved'

You must be very careful because if your sprinkler system doesn't work your
insurance coverage is usually no good but they don't ask IF the sprinkler
system is working.

[p], [q], [r], , [t], , [v], [w], [x], [y],
[z], [aa], [bb], [cc], [dd], [ee].


So let me get this straight, If I owned a one room home with only 1 door and 2
windows and I agree to your recommendations for security, you'll provide all
those services from [a] - [ee] at no additional charge simply by paying
monitoring? But, if I had a 155,000 sq foot building and I didn't agree to
install one of the many motions you recommended in you $12,000 bid, I get
squat?

already answered - full-service=full-service
You'll give up a job because of an unnecessary keypad but won't give it up if
you feel the security devices are inadequate? I fail to see why giving up an
install over extra equipment but not because of poor security is anything to be
proud about. Had you said you'll refuse to install a system in a premise where
you honestly felt the level of protection had diminished below an acceptable
standard, that I would say is good. But, to turn around and say you'll
actually install an inferior system, but turn down an install down because of
the keypad... well, I'm not impressed.
clearly you don't understand what I said

So what makes you any different from those who "advertise" free systems, aren't
you the same as them? All you're doing is "saying" I won't, but you will.
We don't say we won't put in low dollars systems we just don't mislead
anyone into thinking its any good because it isn't
 
T

thesatguy

That doesn't sound right. According to NAIC, discounts are the decision of the
carriers so long as they are applied uniformly, they are not a legislative
option. So I can only assume it's a rumor that's been taken by some as a
governmental mandate.
The Texas State Board of Insurance makes all the decisions seemingly based
mostly on what insurance companies tell them which is why we now have the
highest rates in the country and its darn near impossible to get home
owner's insurance period. This year the policies that were $750-$900
suddenly went to $2500.or so but many people are simply refused coverage.
Anything that was flood damged during tropical storm Allison is mostly
uninsured because you need a home inspection certificate before you can get
coverage. Since several hundred thousand people in this area did not have
govt flood insurance many people just lost everything cause home owners
insurance doesn't pay anything until the govt flood policy pays off. On my
block there are around 36 homes and it was easy to see who had flood
insurance because the ten or so who had insurance got their homes pretty
much rebuilt while the others just sit dormant. Many homes were rented and
of course those folks just walked away leaving the absentee owners to deal
with repairs. Since the only FEMA assistance for renters is some rent money
while the landlord repairs the property (if the landlord repairs the
property) most people just moved somewhere else. Lots of the houses are now
vacant and we had less than 2 feet of water. I helped a friend move out of
his house and there were chairs stuck in the ceiling because the water was
quite a bit deeper there - he had no insurance because he couldn't qualify
to get a policy. The insurance companies run the state board and while the
AG tries to make it look like he's going after them - several companies just
pulled out of the state.

Its really bizarre because went I went into the alarm business you hassled
with every customer's insurance company because every retail account had
insurance. Now, only jewelry stores have insurance and thats because they
have a coop called Jeweler's Mutual that insures them. We have a
high-dollars auto parts warehouse that has insurance because they have
nothing but expensive foriegn car parts and thats about it. Nobody else has
insurance any more. The state requires businesses to have public liability
and the landlords require fire and windstorm so everyone has TMP - Texas
Multi Peril - and that covers fire, theft, windstorm, hail, public
liability, Nobody carries the coverage for burglary or vandalism or
hoolaganism (those two are NOT the same thing). TMP has theft coverage but
it is limited to $500. if you witnessed the theft - otherwise there's none.
TMP runs $1000. a year but to add burglary coverage would start at $2250. a
yr additional and the limits are $7500. total - nobody is going to pay that.
They charge $1000. a yr to add glass coverage and it usually does NOT
include boardup costs or any security guard.<g> Its just a bad joke.
I just remembered we have an ice house that has insurance (and an approved
alarm system) because he bought a new ice machine on a lease/purchase
agreement and they require coverage until he pays off the purchase - we do
see some of that but you can be sure he will drop the coverage at the first
point he can. Otherwise peeps just don't have insurance anymore.
 
T

thesatguy

AlarmReview said:
I contacted an attorney in TX and he said you are partially correct on the
alarm discounts and requirements. The Insurance Commissioners have permitted
states the rights to impose mandatory discounts when the state can prove that
specific requirements for a discount has resulted in lower claims. Texas has
done that. They require a mandatory insurance discount for alarms but is not
all inclusive. Texas has adopted a mandatory 15% discount for alarms if it
meets ALL of these requirements:
1. Must cover all doors and windows including garage doors, exterior attic
hatches, skylights, basement windows, etc.
2. Must have both an interior and an exterior siren.
3. Must be listed by Underwriters Laboratory.
4. Must be monitored by a UL listed central station.
5. Must have been installed and maintained by a TCPS licensed security alarm
contractor.
6. Must be inspected and receive a certificate from the local law enforcement
agency.
All these requirements must be met and any item not met disqualifies the
homeowner from the mandatory discount. If a system meets those requirements,
the insurance company must give a 15% discount.

Uh huh, thats total bs.
There is NO inspection by any local jurisdiction.
Wonder when that may occur? How about never.

Never seen anyone other than me install a UL listed residential alarm and I
am not carrying that listing - only two companies that still carry UL
listing so if what you said was true nobody qualifies for any discount
Putting the above requirements in effect would be great. I wouldn't mind
the $300. or so adding that residential UL listing but it would put everone
else out of the residential alarm business unless they were and ADT dealer.

Hum... I wonder who could have written such a requirement?
 
T

thesatguy

Guess they don't update their site very often. The State Board of Private
Investigators and Private Security Agencies was replaced several years ago
by the Texas Security Commission when George Bush was Governor. Needless to
say there are new rules and regulations.

There is nobody to inspect burglar alarms. Thats just so funny. Maybe they
planned on creating another layer of government we don't need to do that so
they could charge so more fees. The only thing Bush did while he was
Governor was abolish the state board and fire the two crooks that were in
charge - they never did anything except steal money from licensees for years
and years. Geez the last thing they did was hoodwink the locksmiths into
needing a license which cost them $500. for nothing and six months later the
Gov. canned them and locksmiths didn't need the stupid license anymore.
Those morons at the board of insurance told the insurance companies to clean
up their act on the homeowners policies and they all stopped selling
policies in Texas - that was certainly a big help.
The boards and agencies in this state are not a big help to consumers - they
exist to keep collecting their pay checks.

Things operate very strangely here. We have a new baseball stadium piad for
by the taxpayers. We have a new football stadium paid for by the taxpayers.
We have a new arena for hockey and basketball paid for by the taxpayers. We
have a new bus that runs on a railroad track down main street from nowhere
to nowhere paid for by the taxpayers. However, every time there is a small
shower everything floods because we don't have the money to clean out the
storm sewers so the water can drain.
So when you say we can save money on our insurance by having an inspection
made when there isn't anyone to make that inspection, it sounds like
business as usual.
 
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