Seagate 160GB IDE drive suddenly invisible.

[David Farber]

I use my generic, home made, pc to test and analyze client's hard drives.
The motherboard in my pc is an ECS NFORCE3. It's never given me any
problems. When I hooked up the test drive in question (lots of knocking
noises) on the second IDE channel, the pc booted, the pc speaker beeped once
(normal for this pc), but it just froze after that. I rebooted and tried to
go into the setup menu but that didn't work either. I gave up on the test
and removed the drive I was checking. But now, the same problem occurs. The
pc powers up, speaker beeps, and it freezes there. If I press "delete" to
enter setup, it just hangs without going into setup. If I remember
correctly, immediately after removing the test drive, I was able to get to
the bios menu but it said no drive was installed. I used the internal clear
CMOS jumper to reset the bios but the outcome was the same. Now, I am not
even able to get that far. If I put in any other drive, I am able to access
the bios menu and the drive is recognized correctly. I was not having any
problems with the drive before adding the test drive on the secondary IDE
channel. I can feel the motor humming when the machine is powered up. I've
tried switching between "cable select" and "master=on, slave =off," that
didn't help. There are no clicking or foreign noises. I was hoping to
purchase a used drive of the same model and swap out the controller boards.
My question is, how close of a match do these boards have to be? So far I
have found the same drive model number and firmware code, but a different
HDA p/n. Anyone have any luck doing a swap like this? Is there some
identifying data on the hard drive platters themselves that would cause the
drive to "disappear" like this? I did try the drive in another pc. It gave a
similar error, "Drive not detected," and asked if I wanted to bypass the
detection process.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[D Yuniskis]

Hi David,

I use my generic, home made, pc to test and analyze client's hard drives.
The motherboard in my pc is an ECS NFORCE3. It's never given me any
problems. When I hooked up the test drive in question (lots of knocking
noises) on the second IDE channel, the pc booted, the pc speaker beeped once
(normal for this pc), but it just froze after that. I rebooted and tried to
go into the setup menu but that didn't work either. I gave up on the test
and removed the drive I was checking. But now, the same problem occurs. The
pc powers up, speaker beeps, and it freezes there. If I press "delete" to
enter setup, it just hangs without going into setup. If I remember

I.e., WITHOUT DRIVE your PC is not operating properly!

correctly, immediately after removing the test drive, I was able to get to
the bios menu but it said no drive was installed. I used the internal clear
CMOS jumper to reset the bios but the outcome was the same. Now, I am not
even able to get that far. If I put in any other drive, I am able to access
the bios menu and the drive is recognized correctly. I was not having any

A few sentences ago, you claimed the PC doesn't get to BIOS with the
"bad" drive disconnected. Now it *does* (with a different drive)?
Are you sure your descriptions are consistent?

 

[David Farber]

Hi David,

Sorry if the description wasn't clear. Let me try to list the chain of
events.

1. Pc works fine with Seagate drive as master drive on first IDE channel.
2. Installed another hard drive to test as master on secondary channel.
3. Pc freezes while trying to list attached drives. Cannot access bios
screen.
4. I remove the drive on the secondary channel.
5. At some point I think I was able to get into the bios menu after removing
the test drive but at that point, it indicated no drive was present.
6. After a couple of more tries, I cannot get to the bios menu anymore.
7. I tried different jumper settings on the Seagate drive and clearing the
CMOS. This didn't solve the problem.
8. Substituted another drive just to see if the Seagate drive was causing
the problem. No problems with a different drive installed. Drive is
recognized properly.

I.e., WITHOUT DRIVE your PC is not operating properly!


A few sentences ago, you claimed the PC doesn't get to BIOS with the
"bad" drive disconnected. Now it *does* (with a different drive)?
Are you sure your descriptions are consistent?

Thanks for your reply.

 

[D Yuniskis]

Sorry if the description wasn't clear. Let me try to list the chain of
events.

1. Pc works fine with Seagate drive as master drive on first IDE channel.
2. Installed another hard drive to test as master on secondary channel.
3. Pc freezes while trying to list attached drives. Cannot access bios
screen.
4. I remove the drive on the secondary channel.
5. At some point I think I was able to get into the bios menu after removing
the test drive but at that point, it indicated no drive was present.

So, there was still a SEAGATE on channel 1 master (?).
And, with *no* drive on channel 2, it CORRECTLY tells you
"no drive present" (on channel *2*?).

6. After a couple of more tries, I cannot get to the bios menu anymore.

Suggesting that the seagate on channel *1* is your problem?
(or, something in the PC/PS)

7. I tried different jumper settings on the Seagate drive and clearing the
CMOS. This didn't solve the problem.
8. Substituted another drive just to see if the Seagate drive was causing
the problem. No problems with a different drive installed. Drive is
recognized properly.

This is the channel 1 seagate that you have now replaced, correct?

I.e., all of this seems to indicate the seagate channel 1 master
is the issue (?)

Have you tried putting that drive on anywhere *else* WITH THE
"different" (working) drive installed?

Note that some drives have different jumper settings for
"master" and "master with slave present". The BIOS can
"hang" for quite a while (almost a minute) looking for a
slave that it *thinks* is there -- but isn't.

 

[David Farber]

So, there was still a SEAGATE on channel 1 master (?).
And, with *no* drive on channel 2, it CORRECTLY tells you
"no drive present" (on channel *2*?).


Suggesting that the seagate on channel *1* is your problem?
(or, something in the PC/PS)


This is the channel 1 seagate that you have now replaced, correct?

Yes, that is correct.

I.e., all of this seems to indicate the seagate channel 1 master
is the issue (?)

Have you tried putting that drive on anywhere *else* WITH THE
"different" (working) drive installed?

I tried the Seagate on another pc connected to the second channel. The pc
hung trying to detect the drive. There was a working drive on the primary
channel.

Note that some drives have different jumper settings for
"master" and "master with slave present". The BIOS can
"hang" for quite a while (almost a minute) looking for a
slave that it *thinks* is there -- but isn't.

I waited for a while. Probably two minutes. No go.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

I use my generic, home made, pc to test and analyze client's hard drives.
The motherboard in my pc is an ECS NFORCE3. It's never given me any
problems. When I hooked up the test drive in question (lots of knocking
noises) on the second IDE channel, the pc booted, the pc speaker beeped once
(normal for this pc), but it just froze after that. I rebooted and tried to
go into the setup menu but that didn't work either. I gave up on the test
and removed the drive I was checking. But now, the same problem occurs. The
pc powers up, speaker beeps, and it freezes there. If I press "delete" to
enter setup, it just hangs without going into setup. If I remember
correctly, immediately after removing the test drive, I was able to get to
the bios menu but it said no drive was installed. I used the internal clear
CMOS jumper to reset the bios but the outcome was the same. Now, I am not
even able to get that far. If I put in any other drive, I am able to access
the bios menu and the drive is recognized correctly. I was not having any
problems with the drive before adding the test drive on the secondary IDE
channel. I can feel the motor humming when the machine is powered up. I've
tried switching between "cable select" and "master=on, slave =off," that
didn't help. There are no clicking or foreign noises. I was hoping to
purchase a used drive of the same model and swap out the controller boards.
My question is, how close of a match do these boards have to be? So far I
have found the same drive model number and firmware code, but a different
HDA p/n. Anyone have any luck doing a swap like this? Is there some
identifying data on the hard drive platters themselves that would cause the
drive to "disappear" like this? I did try the drive in another pc. It gave a
similar error, "Drive not detected," and asked if I wanted to bypass the
detection process.

Thanks for your reply.

If the drive spins up but is not detected, then the fault is most
likely inside the HDA (head/disc assembly). However, I have seen cases
where a bad IDE cable produces the same symptom. That said, if you
decide to replace the circuit board, be prepared to transplant the
serial EEPROM (flash) chip from patient to donor. On newer models this
chip stores unique drive specific calibration data.

See the following article for help in identifying the components.

HDD from inside Main parts:
http://hddscan.com/doc/HDD_from_inside.html

The following article explains why drives have "adaptive" data.

HDD from inside: Tracks and Zones. How hard it can be?
http://hddscan.com/doc/HDD_Tracks_and_Zones.html

Essentially the reason is that no two heads are physically identical.
HD manufacturers try to fit as much data as possible onto each
platter. To do this, they take advantage of any head that performs
better than the average.

For example, some heads will have a better frequency response than
others, which means that you can cram more bits on each track. This
technique is called Variable Bits Per Inch (VBPI).

Giant magnetorestive (GMR) heads use a separate element for writing
and another for reading. The separation between these two components
varies from head to head. Once again manufacturers optimise data
density by implementing Variable Tracks Per Inch (VTPI).

Each HD therefore needs to be calibrated to account for VBPI and VTPI,
otherwise the drive doesn't know where to find the tracks, or the data
within the track. When a drive powers up, it needs to retrieve the
bulk of its firmware from a reserved area (System Area) on the
platters. If it can't read these data, then it clicks. This is what
usually happens after you swap a board without transferring the
calibration information.

- Franc Zabkar

 

[Adrian C]

My own experience with Seagate drives has not been good!

A while back I bought 2x 400Gb drives from Maplin, it was a while before I
unpacked them so there's no chance of returning them.

How long ago? The drives will have a warranty with Maplin, but if the
shop staff act like the stupid berks they normally are, you should be
able to ship them back to Seagate. You can check warranty status on
their web site.

 

[PeterD]

Sorry if the description wasn't clear. Let me try to list the chain of
events.

1. Pc works fine with Seagate drive as master drive on first IDE channel.
2. Installed another hard drive to test as master on secondary channel.
3. Pc freezes while trying to list attached drives. Cannot access bios
screen.
4. I remove the drive on the secondary channel.
5. At some point I think I was able to get into the bios menu after removing
the test drive but at that point, it indicated no drive was present.
6. After a couple of more tries, I cannot get to the bios menu anymore.
7. I tried different jumper settings on the Seagate drive and clearing the
CMOS. This didn't solve the problem.
8. Substituted another drive just to see if the Seagate drive was causing
the problem. No problems with a different drive installed. Drive is
recognized properly.

Still not really clear... #1 above says the computer works OK with the
Seagate drive.
#7 says it doesn't work OK with the Seagate drive.

I'd think you have a bad cable, or you broke the drive.

BTW, you can't 'swap' the controller cards between drives, the NV ram
on the controller is programmed to the drive itself.

 

[David Farber]

Get a USB caddy to mount the drive in.
Get Roadkills Rawcopy
http://www.roadkil.net/listing.php?Category=2

Yes! Exactly. That would have prevented the problem completely which was...

I've slid so many test drives in out of the drive bay that occasionally the
test slave drive doesn't go in exactly straight and clips the bottom of the
Seagate drive. After closer inspection of the Seagate controller board, I
found a capacitor hanging by one terminal, a zero ohm resistor which had a
cold solder joint, and another capacitor missing from the board. There were
just a couple of pc pads with only some leftover solder to show for it. All
these parts are very small smd components and that's why I missed it on the
first couple of go-rounds. Fortunately, I had another Seagate drive with the
same controller layout. I used it to supply the missing capacitor. Soldering
was not easy at all as I tried to hold the part in place with a tiny
screwdriver. The magnetic field from the drive must have transferred to the
capacitor (or my tools have been around too many speaker magnets) because
the screwdriver was totally useless in aligning it to the board. I wound up
using a wood stick from a broken off Q-tip to hold it in place.

Anyway, the drive boots fine now. Next step is to backup the drive. I get so
involved in backing up and restoring other people's data I've neglected
doing the same for myself.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[David Farber]

Still not really clear... #1 above says the computer works OK with the
Seagate drive.
#7 says it doesn't work OK with the Seagate drive.

I'd think you have a bad cable, or you broke the drive.

BTW, you can't 'swap' the controller cards between drives, the NV ram
on the controller is programmed to the drive itself.

Good call about the "broken" drive. I broke it moving it around. See my post
a little way down the list.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[David Farber]

If the drive spins up but is not detected, then the fault is most
likely inside the HDA (head/disc assembly). However, I have seen cases
where a bad IDE cable produces the same symptom. That said, if you
decide to replace the circuit board, be prepared to transplant the
serial EEPROM (flash) chip from patient to donor. On newer models this
chip stores unique drive specific calibration data.

See the following article for help in identifying the components.

HDD from inside Main parts:
http://hddscan.com/doc/HDD_from_inside.html

The following article explains why drives have "adaptive" data.

HDD from inside: Tracks and Zones. How hard it can be?
http://hddscan.com/doc/HDD_Tracks_and_Zones.html

Essentially the reason is that no two heads are physically identical.
HD manufacturers try to fit as much data as possible onto each
platter. To do this, they take advantage of any head that performs
better than the average.

For example, some heads will have a better frequency response than
others, which means that you can cram more bits on each track. This
technique is called Variable Bits Per Inch (VBPI).

Giant magnetorestive (GMR) heads use a separate element for writing
and another for reading. The separation between these two components
varies from head to head. Once again manufacturers optimise data
density by implementing Variable Tracks Per Inch (VTPI).

Each HD therefore needs to be calibrated to account for VBPI and VTPI,
otherwise the drive doesn't know where to find the tracks, or the data
within the track. When a drive powers up, it needs to retrieve the
bulk of its firmware from a reserved area (System Area) on the
platters. If it can't read these data, then it clicks. This is what
usually happens after you swap a board without transferring the
calibration information.

- Franc Zabkar

Great info Franc. However I'm glad I didn't open the drive. That certainly
would have ruined it for good.

As it turns out, the drive suffered a "clipping" problem. See my post a few
messages after this one in response to Chris Oates.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[Jamie]

Still not really clear... #1 above says the computer works OK with the
Seagate drive.
#7 says it doesn't work OK with the Seagate drive.

I'd think you have a bad cable, or you broke the drive.

BTW, you can't 'swap' the controller cards between drives, the NV ram
on the controller is programmed to the drive itself.

Oh it's clear to me.
the first drive is the master to start with, second one as a slave
which he in stalled. The slave connects with the master.. There is
something seriously wrong with the slave, it has destroyed or rewritten
some vital parameters on the master drive. The controller on the master
needs to be corrected..
Also, a true electrical failure may existed on the failed drive that
has now shorted the once working drive, which was the primary (master)..


When testing drives, its always a good idea to boot from a external
device to get your test PC running. Put the test drive in as a master.
Don't have any other drives connected to that channel..

 

[PeterD]

Yes! Exactly. That would have prevented the problem completely which was...

I've slid so many test drives in out of the drive bay that occasionally the
test slave drive doesn't go in exactly straight and clips the bottom of the
Seagate drive. After closer inspection of the Seagate controller board, I
found a capacitor hanging by one terminal, a zero ohm resistor which had a
cold solder joint, and another capacitor missing from the board. There were
just a couple of pc pads with only some leftover solder to show for it. All
these parts are very small smd components and that's why I missed it on the
first couple of go-rounds. Fortunately, I had another Seagate drive with the
same controller layout. I used it to supply the missing capacitor. Soldering
was not easy at all as I tried to hold the part in place with a tiny
screwdriver. The magnetic field from the drive must have transferred to the
capacitor (or my tools have been around too many speaker magnets) because
the screwdriver was totally useless in aligning it to the board. I wound up
using a wood stick from a broken off Q-tip to hold it in place.

Anyway, the drive boots fine now. Next step is to backup the drive. I get so
involved in backing up and restoring other people's data I've neglected
doing the same for myself.

Thanks for your reply.

An amazing diagnostic and repair... I'm impressed you were able to
recover.

 

[Meat Plow]

I use my generic, home made, pc to test and analyze client's hard
drives. The motherboard in my pc is an ECS NFORCE3. It's never given me
any problems. When I hooked up the test drive in question (lots of
knocking noises) on the second IDE channel, the pc booted, the pc
speaker beeped once (normal for this pc), but it just froze after that.
I rebooted and tried to go into the setup menu but that didn't work
either. I gave up on the test and removed the drive I was checking. But
now, the same problem occurs. The pc powers up, speaker beeps, and it
freezes there. If I press "delete" to enter setup, it just hangs without
going into setup. If I remember correctly, immediately after removing
the test drive, I was able to get to the bios menu but it said no drive
was installed. I used the internal clear CMOS jumper to reset the bios
but the outcome was the same. Now, I am not even able to get that far.
If I put in any other drive, I am able to access the bios menu and the
drive is recognized correctly. I was not having any problems with the
drive before adding the test drive on the secondary IDE channel. I can
feel the motor humming when the machine is powered up. I've tried
switching between "cable select" and "master=on, slave =off," that
didn't help. There are no clicking or foreign noises. I was hoping to
purchase a used drive of the same model and swap out the controller
boards. My question is, how close of a match do these boards have to be?
So far I have found the same drive model number and firmware code, but a
different HDA p/n. Anyone have any luck doing a swap like this? Is there
some identifying data on the hard drive platters themselves that would
cause the drive to "disappear" like this? I did try the drive in another
pc. It gave a similar error, "Drive not detected," and asked if I wanted
to bypass the detection process.

Thanks for your reply.

WHEW what a read. Put a known good drive on the dead drive cable. If CMOS
enumerates it then the drive electronics are hosed and you can either
toss it, try to find an exact working drive and swap the control board or
send it off to a recovery service if it has data on it you can't do
without.

 

[David Farber]

WHEW what a read. Put a known good drive on the dead drive cable. If
CMOS enumerates it then the drive electronics are hosed and you can
either toss it, try to find an exact working drive and swap the
control board or send it off to a recovery service if it has data on
it you can't do without.

Do you mean what a good read or what a bad read? Do I have a career in store
as a technical writer? lol. Anyway, you were right about the electronics.
See my post from yesterday. A few of the smd parts on the pc board got
knocked off from sliding test drives into the tight fitting drive bay
underneath it. I happened to have had another Seagate drive to use for
parts and now all is well.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[Meat Plow]

Do you mean what a good read or what a bad read? Do I have a career in
store as a technical writer? lol. Anyway, you were right about the
electronics. See my post from yesterday. A few of the smd parts on the
pc board got knocked off from sliding test drives into the tight fitting
drive bay underneath it. I happened to have had another Seagate drive
to use for parts and now all is well.

Thanks for your reply.

LOL Yes your description was very verbose. I'm glad you got a resolution
using the method described. However, I {think} drives have writable flash
memory that is used by the manufacturer to map things like engineering
tracks and the likes so the possibility may exist that you would end up
with slightly less capacity or some other anomaly by the swap. Of course
this is pure speculation on my part but it is born of reading something
in the past and may not apply to new(er) drives. I have done exactly the
same thing with and old Conner RLL drive many moons ago and it did work.
Back then before IDE appeared on the consumer shelf drives were horribly
expensive and anything one could do to salvage a drive was well worth the
effort.I can remember waiting hours, even days for Gibson Spinrite to try
to move data from damaged to good clusters and map those clusters out as
bad only to find out it stayed at 30% done for 30 hours