Scott-T and 2 Phase

[Randy Gross]

Greetings,

I was gathering information on the Scott-T transformation when I ran
across this discussion:

http://www.integrate-oz.net/forum/printthread.php?t=672&page=2&pp=10

in it was stated that residential 2 phase isn't two seperate phases but
one 240v single phase split into two 120v circuits.

The Scott-T description states that 2 phases 90 degrees apart are used.

Is this "split phase 240" a norm in residential or intermittent?

Is residential "2 phase" suitable for the Scott-T connection?

rg

 

[Dan Hollands]

All Residential Power I have ever heard of is what you call "split phase
240" i.e. 2 phases 180 degrees apart.

I don't think the Scott T will work with this

Dan

--
Dan Hollands
1120 S Creek Dr
Webster NY 14580
[email protected]
www.QuickScoreRace.com

 

[John Popelish]

Greetings,

I was gathering information on the Scott-T transformation when I ran
across this discussion:

http://www.integrate-oz.net/forum/printthread.php?t=672&page=2&pp=10

in it was stated that residential 2 phase isn't two seperate phases but
one 240v single phase split into two 120v circuits.

The Scott-T description states that 2 phases 90 degrees apart are used.

Is this "split phase 240" a norm in residential or intermittent?

Is residential "2 phase" suitable for the Scott-T connection?

rg

Residential power in the US is single phase from a single transformer.
It is often referred to as 2 phase, because the center tap of the
distribution transformer secondary is grounded, so the two ends of the
winding swing in opposite directions, 180 degrees apart, but there is
no way to derive other arbitrary phases from this output using only
transformers.

A Scott-T transformer is two single phase transformers connected
together so that they can deal with true 3 phase power. The end of
the winding of one transformer is connected to the center tap of the
winding of the second transformer. Two of the 3 phases are connected
across the center tapped winding and the third phase is connected to
the remaining end of the winding whose other end is connected to the
center tap. The voltage of the non center tapped winding is square
root of 3 times the voltage of the center tapped one.
Something like this, where W represents windings

1-WWWW-+-WWWW-2
|
W
W
W
W
|
3

The voltages across the two windings are 90 degrees apart, but the
voltages phase to phase are 120 degrees apart. From the outside, it
acts like a delta or Y, 3 phase transformer, but uses only 2 cores.

You can connect 240 volt residential power as phase 1 and 2, but there
is no third phase to use as phase 3.

 

[John Popelish]

Greetings,

I was gathering information on the Scott-T transformation when I ran
across this discussion:

http://www.integrate-oz.net/forum/printthread.php?t=672&page=2&pp=10

in it was stated that residential 2 phase isn't two seperate phases but
one 240v single phase split into two 120v circuits.

The Scott-T description states that 2 phases 90 degrees apart are used.

Is this "split phase 240" a norm in residential or intermittent?

Is residential "2 phase" suitable for the Scott-T connection?

rg

I found a tutorial on transformers that has mention of the Scott-T
about 3/4 of the way down:
http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/electricCircuits/AC/AC_9.html

 

[Randy Gross]

The voltages across the two windings are 90 degrees apart, but the
voltages phase to phase are 120 degrees apart. From the outside, it
acts like a delta or Y, 3 phase transformer, but uses only 2 cores.

You can connect 240 volt residential power as phase 1 and 2, but
there is no third phase to use as phase 3.

[email protected]

Thanks for clearing up the 2 phase issue. I took it at face value that
the 220 was individual, I should have looked deeper. My oversite!

I can see that there will not be a 3 phase to 2 phase transformation
using the Scott-T but, will the Scott-T transform the 2 phase
residential to 3 phase seeing that the phases are 180 degrees apart?

rg

 

[Randy Gross]

I found a tutorial on transformers that has mention of the Scott-T
about 3/4 of the way down:
http://www.ibiblio.org/obp/electricCircuits/AC/AC_9.html

[email protected]

A very detailed and definetive description. Thanks John!

rg

 

[The Phantom]

[email protected]

Thanks for clearing up the 2 phase issue. I took it at face value that
the 220 was individual, I should have looked deeper. My oversite!

I can see that there will not be a 3 phase to 2 phase transformation
using the Scott-T but, will the Scott-T transform the 2 phase
residential to 3 phase seeing that the phases are 180 degrees apart?

No, it won't. As John said:"there is
no way to derive other arbitrary phases from this output using only
transformers."

It's a trigonometry problem. When you add two sine waves of different phases, you get a
resultant sine wave of different amplitude and phase, depending on just how much of each
sine wave you add; *except* in the case where the two sine waves you're adding are either
zero degrees or 180 degrees from each other. Then the resultant will be zero or 180
degrees from the two you added; that is, no change in phase angle, or 180 degrees from one
of the inputs.

I once had a discussion about this with one of my technicians, and finally convinced him
it couldn't be done with just transformers.

However, it can be done (in a sense) with inductors and capacitors. You can build
networks that can change phase, but they are load sensitive. In other words, if your load
were constant, it could be done with L-C networks.

 

[Randy Gross]

it >> acts like a delta or Y, 3 phase transformer, but uses only 2
cores. >>

No, it won't. As John said:"there is
no way to derive other arbitrary phases from this output using only
transformers."

It's a trigonometry problem. When you add two sine waves of
different phases, you get a resultant sine wave of different
amplitude and phase, depending on just how much of each sine wave you
add; except in the case where the two sine waves you're adding are
either zero degrees or 180 degrees from each other. Then the
resultant will be zero or 180 degrees from the two you added; that
is, no change in phase angle, or 180 degrees from one of the inputs.

I once had a discussion about this with one of my technicians, and
finally convinced him it couldn't be done with just transformers.

However, it can be done (in a sense) with inductors and capacitors.
You can build networks that can change phase, but they are load
sensitive. In other words, if your load were constant, it could be
done with L-C networks.

[email protected]

After researching the Scott-T, I wondered why the connection wasn't
utilized more extensively in residential shop applications. Now I know
that 2 phase is not two true phases so, all is not lost. I've gained
another chip in the game.

Thanks to all,
rg

 

[Jasen Betts]

Greetings,

I was gathering information on the Scott-T transformation when I ran
across this discussion:

http://www.integrate-oz.net/forum/printthread.php?t=672&page=2&pp=10

in it was stated that residential 2 phase isn't two seperate phases but
one 240v single phase split into two 120v circuits.

In america it is...

The Scott-T description states that 2 phases 90 degrees apart are used.

Is this "split phase 240" a norm in residential or intermittent?
huh?

Is residential "2 phase" suitable for the Scott-T connection?

according to what you say, not unless you can arrange a 90 degree phase shift.

what can you tell us about "Scott-T"? I only found a patent which suggests
to me that it's only of interest to its inventor.

Bye.
Jasen

 

[John Popelish]

what can you tell us about "Scott-T"? I only found a patent which suggests
to me that it's only of interest to its inventor.

I've seen it used industrially to substitute as a cheap Y transformer.
You can even produce an equivalent of a grounded center Y by having
a tap off center on the winding that connects between a phase and the
center tap of the other winding. The windings are not as equally
balanced as a true Y, but from the outside, you still have three ends
for 3 phases and a center node to connect ground.

The Scott-T is just one permutation of the many possible, to change
phase angles using two or more transformers.