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RM12 core - high temperature.

S

Syd Rumpo

Anyone know if it's possible to get RM12 cores - say Al = 160nH or
thereabouts - which will work at maybe 250'C ? Those I've seen have a
curie temp of 210'C which is a bit too close to my ambient 180'C for
comfort.

Cheers
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Anyone know if it's possible to get RM12 cores - say Al = 160nH or
thereabouts - which will work at maybe 250'C ? Those I've seen have a
curie temp of 210'C which is a bit too close to my ambient 180'C for
comfort.

Cheers

Have you looked at the materials available to you?

N49 from Epcos has Tc > 240°C

Your bobbin will probably not withstand that.
 
S

Syd Rumpo

Have you looked at the materials available to you?

N49 from Epcos has Tc > 240°C

Your bobbin will probably not withstand that.

Thanks, I'll look. The bobbin can be PEEK.
....
Just did - 'Optimum frequency range' is 300kHz - 1000kHz and I want
10kHz - 80kHz. I don't know enough about this to know how the optimum
is determined and how it behaves outside this.

Any recommendations for an idiot's guide to magnetics? So many variables.

Cheers
 
J

Joerg

Syd said:
Thanks, I'll look. The bobbin can be PEEK.


If you get stuck talk to Solvay.

...
Just did - 'Optimum frequency range' is 300kHz - 1000kHz and I want
10kHz - 80kHz. I don't know enough about this to know how the optimum
is determined and how it behaves outside this.

Any recommendations for an idiot's guide to magnetics? So many variables.


You are almost on the turf of tape cores. I'd talk to these guys:

http://www.mag-inc.com/core-convers...10/04/keeping-a-magnetic-core-from-saturating

As for literature, Amidon is pretty good but there's also lots of
others. Lots of variables to deal with and if you've never done a
transformer design like this I suggest to get in contact with a good vendor.
 
G

George Herold

Thanks, I'll look.  The bobbin can be PEEK.
...
Just did - 'Optimum frequency range' is 300kHz - 1000kHz and I want
10kHz - 80kHz.  I don't know enough about this to know how the optimum
is determined and how it behaves outside this.

Any recommendations for an idiot's guide to magnetics?  So many variables.

Google is a good place to start.
I don't think there is any problem going to a lower frequency.
(But I know little about magnetic materials.)

What are you going to solder it with? (I always start to worry if the
temp gets above 150C...) Hey, what about wire insulation?

What the bleep are you doing at 180C?

George H.
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Thanks, I'll look. The bobbin can be PEEK.
...
Just did - 'Optimum frequency range' is 300kHz - 1000kHz and I want
10kHz - 80kHz. I don't know enough about this to know how the optimum
is determined and how it behaves outside this.

Any recommendations for an idiot's guide to magnetics? So many variables.

Cheers

Since you already have a core size/shape in mind, then you can look at
vendors (eg. Epcos, Ferroxcube) that make that core and decide which
available material (if any) fits your application from the material
datasheets. The 160nH Al requirement will determine your air gap.

Eg. http://www.epcos.com/inf/80/db/fer_07/rm_12.pdf
http://www.ferroxcube.com/prod/assets/rm12i.pdf



http://www.epcos.com/web/generator/...F/PDF__N41,property=Data__en.pdf;/PDF_N41.pdf

http://www.epcos.com/web/generator/...F/PDF__N49,property=Data__en.pdf;/PDF_N49.pdf
etc.
 
T

Tim Williams

Syd Rumpo said:
Just did - 'Optimum frequency range' is 300kHz - 1000kHz and I want
10kHz - 80kHz. I don't know enough about this to know how the optimum
is determined and how it behaves outside this.

The minimum for a material is more like, you wouldn't want to use it for
less because other materials are cheaper, with higher Bmax and mu.

Actually, Bmax is quite good for N49, typical of MnZn. It looks
comparable to Ferroxcube 3F35 (or 3F3 or 3F4).

Mu of course doesn't matter here as you'll be gapping it. As long as it's
enough to begin with.

Just looking at the Ferroxcube listing, while I'm there,
# Tc
3C92 280C
3F45 300C
3S5 255C
3B46 255C

3B46 has unusually high mu and Bsat; with a crossover frequency around
700kHz, it wouldn't be very lossy at 10-80k.

NiZn cores appear to have Tc and mu inversely related, so you could pick a
4E1 (mu = 15) with Tc > 500C, but you'd never get your AL either.

AL seems kind of high for a choke, you might also consider using more
copper and less ferrite. Not sure why really, but I suppose the tempco
could be better -- less reliance on a teeny gap. Tempcos suck all over,
of course.. copper ain't as pretty at 200C (about double R).

It's probably also worth mentioning average transformer varnish softens
below 200C. In fact, cooking parts at ~200C is a good way to salvage the
cores.

Tim
 
N

Nico Coesel

Syd Rumpo said:
Thanks, I'll look. The bobbin can be PEEK.
...
Just did - 'Optimum frequency range' is 300kHz - 1000kHz and I want
10kHz - 80kHz. I don't know enough about this to know how the optimum
is determined and how it behaves outside this.

Any recommendations for an idiot's guide to magnetics? So many variables.

IIRC I have used N49 for a transformer prototype at 80kHz. If its for
a switching regulator you'll get more ringing at lower frequencies
because the material isn't so lossy.
 
B

Bill Sloman

IIRC I have used N49 for a transformer prototype at 80kHz. If its for
a switching regulator you'll get more ringing at lower frequencies
because the material isn't so lossy.

That could actually be an advantage in his application - lossy ferrite
gets hot because of the current circulating in the ferrite core
itself, and if the ambient is already 180C you want to generate as
little heat as possible inside the core. The windings are at least
made of copper, and can conduct the heat they generate without too
much of a temperature rise - though he probably needs to use forced
convection (fan cooling) to minimise their running temperature.
 
P

Phil Allison

"Syd Rumpo"
Anyone know if it's possible to get RM12 cores - say Al = 160nH or
thereabouts - which will work at maybe 250'C ? Those I've seen have a
curie temp of 210'C which is a bit too close to my ambient 180'C for
comfort.

** For use in a 180C ambient, you will need Teflon bobbins and wire.

Use an oversize core to allow for loss of mu as the Curie temp is
approached.

And of course, practically no electronic components made will stand it for
long - with the exception of all glass valves.



.... Phil
 
S

Syd Rumpo

"Syd Rumpo"


** For use in a 180C ambient, you will need Teflon bobbins and wire.

Use an oversize core to allow for loss of mu as the Curie temp is
approached.

And of course, practically no electronic components made will stand it for
long - with the exception of all glass valves.



... Phil
Hi Phil

Usually custom made PEEK bobbins are used as it's easy to machine, and
these are very small quantity instruments, but Teflon would work too.
If someone already makes such, that would be very useful.

High temperature wire is usually 'enamelled' with polyimide (Kapton) and
is good for 250'C.

Electronics at 180'C needs careful selection and testing, and doesn't
last too long. That's not always a bad thing :)

Cheers
 
N

Nico Coesel

Bill Sloman said:
That could actually be an advantage in his application - lossy ferrite
gets hot because of the current circulating in the ferrite core
itself, and if the ambient is already 180C you want to generate as
little heat as possible inside the core. The windings are at least
made of copper, and can conduct the heat they generate without too
much of a temperature rise - though he probably needs to use forced
convection (fan cooling) to minimise their running temperature.

Using lesser windings may also be an option (increase flux swing
IIRC). The core will run hotter but it has more outer surface than the
copper inside the transformer.
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

"Syd Rumpo"


** For use in a 180C ambient, you will need Teflon bobbins and wire.

There are a lot of materials that are still okay well over 200°C. We
use polyimide insulated wire, as well as PTFE. If you had to go really
high, for the bobbin, Macor is good to something like 1000°C. More
reasonably, the OP mentioned PEEK.. there are also things like Vespel.

Depending on the atmosphere, I'd worry about fine wire lasting very
long. I've seen failures of fine Cu wire occurring at pinholes in the
insulation. The resistance will increase quite a bit at the high
temperatures too- more than +50% compared to room temperature.
Use an oversize core to allow for loss of mu as the Curie temp is
approached.

On N49 anyway (Tc> 240°C), the mu goes _up_ almost monotonically from
room temperature to about 225°C, after which it plummets. There's a
little dip between 80°C and 140°C, but nothing significant. A bit
surprising.
And of course, practically no electronic components made will stand it for
long -

There are some semis that are claimed to last in excess of 10 years at
180°C (5 years at 225°C!). Expensive, but required in some
applications, many of which are okay with limited lifespans.
Honeywell, for example.

with the exception of all glass valves.

Changing the subject more than a bit, but I wasn't aware that
so-called "all glass" valves require stopcock grease.

http://www.thomassci.com/Thomas-Brand/_/THOMAS-LUBRISEAL-STOPCOCK-GREASE/



Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
 
G

George Herold

"Syd Rumpo"


** For use in a 180C ambient, you will need Teflon bobbins and wire.

I've seen open open air coil forms made of teflon, where the teflon
'flowed' before the wire insulation failed. I have no idea the
temperature, perhaps it's better when enclosed in the transfomer.

George H.
 
T

Tim Williams

Spehro Pefhany said:
On N49 anyway (Tc> 240°C), the mu goes _up_ almost monotonically from
room temperature to about 225°C, after which it plummets. There's a
little dip between 80°C and 140°C, but nothing significant. A bit
surprising.

Actually, mu always goes up with temperature. Stochastic resonance --
think of it as white noise dithering the magnetic domains' hysteresis.

At low temperature, the domains just stick around. The B-H loop is wider
(I think... I'd like to see some data though), and around B=0, it's much
flatter (low initial permeability). When looking at a B-H curve, you have
to remember it's not actually a nice sigmoidal loop: real materials often
have pronounced flat spots around the axis ("butterfly curve"), which
manufacturers typically ignore.

At higher temperatures, thermal energy scatters the magnetic domains,
raising the ground state energy level, reducing hysteresis but leaving
less room for magnetic energy. You can still force the domains into
alignment, but you don't get as much flux from doing it -- so, saturation
Bmax drops linearly as Tc is approached, hitting zero at Tc.

Presumably, materials with a gradual, progressive curve are a blend of
many Tc's, and materials with two spikes are mainly two Tc's. And
accordingly, Bmax would drop off in a sum-of-parameters slope. I don't
know if this is a correct interpretation or if there's more subtle physics
going on.

Tim
 
F

Fred Abse

hat could actually be an advantage in his application - lossy ferrite
gets hot because of the current circulating in the ferrite core itself,
and if the ambient is already 180C you want to generate as little heat as
possible inside the core. The windings are at least made of copper, and
can conduct the heat they generate without too much of a temperature rise
- though he probably needs to use forced convection (fan cooling) to
minimise their running temperature.

At 120 Celsius, the highest characterized temperature for dissipation, at
100kHz, and 100mT, N49 dissipates 115kW per cubic meter.

Initial permeability at 180C, the OP's operating temperature, is 1820.

Figures from Epcos ferrite magnetic design tool.
 
J

josephkk

Hi Phil

Usually custom made PEEK bobbins are used as it's easy to machine, and
these are very small quantity instruments, but Teflon would work too.
If someone already makes such, that would be very useful.

High temperature wire is usually 'enamelled' with polyimide (Kapton) and
is good for 250'C.

Electronics at 180'C needs careful selection and testing, and doesn't
last too long. That's not always a bad thing :)

Cheers

Various people here, but not all the time have made high temperature "down
hole" devices that operate up to 250 C for a short time. Sometimes it is
cheaper to make them expendable. They have their methods. I might
recognize one if posting to this thread, or i might not.

?-)
 
W

whit3rd

Anyone know if it's possible to get RM12 cores - say Al = 160nH or
thereabouts - which will work at maybe 250'C ? Those I've seen have a
curie temp of 210'C which is a bit too close to my ambient 180'C for
comfort.

You may have to do some math: by a generally applicable susceptibility law,
the Al value will drop as ( T-Tc) **gamma in the vicinity of the Curie point (with
some minor correction because the Al value isn't exactly zero with
only an empty space for a core). Gamma, for iron, is 1.33; I don't know
about ferrites.
 
S

Syd Rumpo

Anyone know if it's possible to get RM12 cores - say Al = 160nH or
thereabouts - which will work at maybe 250'C ? Those I've seen have a
curie temp of 210'C which is a bit too close to my ambient 180'C for
comfort.


Thanks for all the suggestions, that's very helpful. I have a fair bit
of experience with high temperature work, but not with magnetics.

Cheers
 
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