Maker Pro
Maker Pro

Repost please: $1/watt solar panals.

G

Gordon

A few week ago someone posted a link to a supplier in Florida who had some
solar panals available at $1.00/watt.

Can you repost the link, I can't seem to find it.
 
D

Don Lancaster

EHWollmann said:
Be careful, when you deal with American dumbasses, everything they made or recommended is over-rated or exaggerated. For example, DELCO REMY' 140A alternator is really a 80-90-amp alternator, look at its copper wire thickness(0.08" thick same a Bosch 80amp 0.08" thick) and don't believe what the label says. Also their new Chevy Volt 200mpg is a fake hybrid, what it is a 30-40miles per charge mileage, not per tank. The dumbasses in these forums are so proud of their hyped products, and they complained so much about the Chinese products. What a shame...


A dollar a watt solar panels would be totally useless, since they would
simply be "paint it green" transfer payments of existing hydrocarbon or
nuclear energy.

And still remain asoline destroying net energy sinks that are in no
manner green, renewable, nor sustainable.

It makes no sense at all to sell a dime's worth of conventional
electricity and then use that dime to buy some mythical "renewable" energy.

For net energy, a quarter per peak pv watt is needed.

Even then, it would be many years after a quarter per watt for actual
breakeven, owing to all the previously lost energy.

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/pvlect2.pdf





--
Many thanks,

Don Lancaster voice phone: (928)428-4073
Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552
rss: http://www.tinaja.com/whtnu.xml email: [email protected]

Please visit my GURU's LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
 
R

Richard the Dreaded Libertarian

What's the value of fighting for the freedom of a man who doesn't want
Freedom but wants Mommy?

Thanks,
Rich
 
R

Rich Grise

With all due respect Don, you are full of it, there's an energy cost tied
to production of any product, few of them produce ANY energy,or payback
and they degrade from the time of purchase. Nobody knows what the future
cost of electricity is, but it's bound to increase greatly.

Unless we can somehow miraculously heal the country of its paranoia and
get a viable nuclear power program going.

Copy the reactors from the submarines and aircraft carriers and use them
to power tankers and container ships and cruise ships.

Thanks,
Rich
 
B

Bob F

Don said:
A dollar a watt solar panels would be totally useless, since they
would simply be "paint it green" transfer payments of existing
hydrocarbon or nuclear energy.

How do you figure this? The price of panels obviously include the price of ALL
the energy used in building them. If they have a payback period and last longer
than that, they obviously will save energy during their lifetime. Especially
since the energy to build them is not nearly the whole price.
 
V

vaughn

Don Lancaster said:
For net energy, a quarter per peak pv watt is needed.

Even then, it would be many years after a quarter per watt for actual
breakeven, owing to all the previously lost energy.

Huh? I usually agree with Don on these things, but here he seems to be
confusing energy break even with economic break even. I a perfect world
they might be comparable, but I doubt if that is true in the real world.

Vaughn
 
T

TheM

vaughn said:
Huh? I usually agree with Don on these things, but here he seems to be confusing energy break even with economic break even. I a
perfect world they might be comparable, but I doubt if that is true in the real world.

Vaughn

I think what he wants to say is that energy break even is many years down the road,
possibly decades. And fixing and maintaining it might kill the small net energy surplus.
And before we get to break even we might have new, much better technology.

M
 
D

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax

Don said:
A dollar a watt solar panels would be totally useless, since they would
simply be "paint it green" transfer payments of existing hydrocarbon or
nuclear energy.

And still remain asoline destroying net energy sinks that are in no
manner green, renewable, nor sustainable.

It makes no sense at all to sell a dime's worth of conventional
electricity and then use that dime to buy some mythical "renewable" energy.

For net energy, a quarter per peak pv watt is needed.

Even then, it would be many years after a quarter per watt for actual
breakeven, owing to all the previously lost energy.

http://www.tinaja.com/glib/pvlect2.pdf

Over here we pay around 15c per kWhr for mains electricity.
Do the sums.

--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/onetribe - Occult Talk Show
 
S

stu

Unless we can somehow miraculously heal the country of its paranoia and
get a viable nuclear power program going.

Copy the reactors from the submarines and aircraft carriers and use them
to power tankers and container ships and cruise ships.

Thanks,
Rich

You should investigate how much diesel goes into producing the uranium
to fuel the reactor. Uranium is very plentiful, but the yield is very
low. Eventually you make back the energy in producing the fuel, but
it's not like the fuel is free. Now if we had reprocessing plants, the
math would be more favorable, but reprocessing is very messy.

I used to be pro-nuclear until I read Dr. Helen Caldicot's "Nuclear
Power is not the Answer.". One thing I hadn't realized is nuclear
plants have to release gas periodically. The amount of radiation
released is very small, probably less than that of a coal plant, but
it isn't the closed loop system everyone makes it out to be.

OMG did you manage to read the whole thing?
You might want to read a few other books before you abandon "pro-nuclear"
 
S

stu

You should investigate how much diesel goes into producing the uranium
to fuel the reactor. Uranium is very plentiful, but the yield is very
low. Eventually you make back the energy in producing the fuel, but
it's not like the fuel is free. Now if we had reprocessing plants, the
math would be more favorable, but reprocessing is very messy.

I used to be pro-nuclear until I read Dr. Helen Caldicot's "Nuclear
Power is not the Answer.". One thing I hadn't realized is nuclear
plants have to release gas periodically. The amount of radiation
released is very small, probably less than that of a coal plant, but
it isn't the closed loop system everyone makes it out to be.

OMG did you manage to read the whole thing?
You might want to read a few other books before you abandon "pro-nuclear"

Yes, I read the whole book. Not sure when you went to college, but "in
the day" the BSEE required a class in thermodynamics. I got the
Babcock and Wilcox indoctrination. I was around for the claim of
nuclear power being so cheap they wouldn't meter it. I was also near
TMI when the accident occurred.. As time passed, much of the cover-up
of the event was declassified. [Shocker: the government lies!] I was
went from pro to neutral to probably negative. There is no solution
for the nuclear waste. Worse yet, there is plenty of nuclear waste
stored at the reactor sites that is not in any containment vessel.
They let the rods cool a bit before even considering transferring them
offsite, and we now know Yucca Mountain will not be opened.

Get the book and read the other side's opinion. Calecott's book is
well documented. It considers the entire "food chain" of nuclear
power. I didn't even bring up the power needed to enrich the fuel. It
is hard to get a number on this since over the years the centrifuge
technology has become more efficient. As you probably know, the
uranium for the WWII nukes was enriched at Oakridge due to the
availability of cheap coal power.

Basically, nuclear power isn't nearly all that it is cracked up to be.
I rather have more wind and solar, plus conservation. Sure, it chops
up little birdies, but hey, you need to break some eggs to make an
omlet.

Oh I have the book, I just haven't finished reading it. But I do have a
"issues" with some of what I have read so far. I also have "the new nuclear
danger" and have a few problems with that as well, although I haven't
finished writing down the problems I have with it.
 
V

vaughn

TheM said:
I think what he wants to say is that energy break even is many years down
the road,
possibly decades.
Yes, but economic break even is also an important concept. For example; PV
economic break even will come far sooner for the off-grid person who is
presently converting gasoline to kilowatt-hours than it would for someone
contemplating a grid-tie syestem in an area with cheap electricity.
And fixing and maintaining it might kill the small net energy surplus.

Again, maintenance is mostly an economic issue, it has less to do with net
energy. That said, I agree that maintenance is an important and often
overlooked factor.
And before we get to break even we might have new, much better technology.

Yes, but demand, and the competition that demand generates, is a main
driver for improving technology. If we just fold our arms and wait for
technology to improve in the absence of demand, technology improvement is
unlikely to ever happen.

Vaughn
 
V

vaughn

Worse yet, there is plenty of nuclear waste
stored at the reactor sites that is not in any containment vessel. They let
the rods cool a bit before even considering transferring them
offsite,

And rightly so. It is far safer to store high-level nuclear waste on-site
and postpone moving it until it naturally decays to at least medium-level
waste.
and we now know Yucca Mountain will not be opened.

The problems with Yuca Mountain are far more political than scientific. The
great irony is that the highly-trumpeted "nuclear waste problem" has been
made insolvable my the anti-nukes. They have been very effective! Further,
they refuse to realistically compare the dangers of nuclear power to the
dangers of the alternatives.

In the interim, the world is subjected to the ecological horror of more and
more coal plants, and (statistically speaking) humans are dying form the
emissions from those plants. Further, those plants also have an insolvable
waste problem.

Vaughn
 
R

Rich Grise

I won't claim to have seen every nuclear site. But of all those I have
seen, not one had spent fuel outside of the multi-layer casks that have
something like 55 tons of shielding. Walking and working around these
storage buildings and/or "pads", my dosimeter never went over 0.01
millirads per hour dose rate. You'll get more exposure than that just
walking on the sidewalk beside by the granite-faced walls of the bank
downtime.

Just put the waste here, until we heal the paranoia and start
reprocessing it:
http://www.wipp.energy.gov/

Cheers!
Rich
 
R

Rich Grise

How many times do you need to be told that you have no value?

Oh, I already know I have no value to _YOU_.

But what's your opinion worth? Frankly, I consider being hated by the
likes of you to be high praise.

Michael, that hatred of me that you're carrying around in your heart
has precisely zero effect on me, but it's eating you up from the inside
out. And you make no bones about announcing the symptoms manifested by
the hatred in your heart.

Hatred doesn't affect the one who is hated, but it kills the one doing
the hating.

I hope you can heal.

Good Luck!
Rich
 
T

TheM

Who knows, but for a $1.98 a watt it's a good deal if you want to give it a go. I know I could run my home office off a couple of
panels (laptop, printer etc.)Even having a couple would keep the lights on
in an emergency.

Especially at night.... factor in batteries and invertors and its way more
than 1.98.

M
 
V

vaughn

Michael A. Terrell said:
The solar panels are worthless for that use without expensive, short
lived batteries.

Expensive, yes. But define "short lived". With proper care, 10 years or
more is not unheard of for a good set of lead acid batteries. In the past,
I have been lucky enough to "scrounge" good used batteries from large UPS
systems. In my home system I typically get another 5 years service from
them.

Vaughn
 
S

stu

You should investigate how much diesel goes into producing the uranium
to fuel the reactor. Uranium is very plentiful, but the yield is very
low. Eventually you make back the energy in producing the fuel, but
it's not like the fuel is free. Now if we had reprocessing plants, the
math would be more favorable, but reprocessing is very messy.
I used to be pro-nuclear until I read Dr. Helen Caldicot's "Nuclear
Power is not the Answer.". One thing I hadn't realized is nuclear
plants have to release gas periodically. The amount of radiation
released is very small, probably less than that of a coal plant, but
it isn't the closed loop system everyone makes it out to be.
OMG did you manage to read the whole thing?
You might want to read a few other books before you abandon
"pro-nuclear"

Yes, I read the whole book. Not sure when you went to college, but "in
the day" the BSEE required a class in thermodynamics. I got the
Babcock and Wilcox indoctrination. I was around for the claim of
nuclear power being so cheap they wouldn't meter it. I was also near
TMI when the accident occurred.. As time passed, much of the cover-up
of the event was declassified. [Shocker: the government lies!] I was
went from pro to neutral to probably negative. There is no solution
for the nuclear waste. Worse yet, there is plenty of nuclear waste
stored at the reactor sites that is not in any containment vessel.
They let the rods cool a bit before even considering transferring them
offsite, and we now know Yucca Mountain will not be opened.

Get the book and read the other side's opinion. Calecott's book is
well documented. It considers the entire "food chain" of nuclear
power. I didn't even bring up the power needed to enrich the fuel. It
is hard to get a number on this since over the years the centrifuge
technology has become more efficient. As you probably know, the
uranium for the WWII nukes was enriched at Oakridge due to the
availability of cheap coal power.

Basically, nuclear power isn't nearly all that it is cracked up to be.
I rather have more wind and solar, plus conservation. Sure, it chops
up little birdies, but hey, you need to break some eggs to make an
omlet.

Oh I have the book, I just haven't finished reading it. But I do have a
"issues" with some of what I have read so far. I also have "the new
nuclear
danger" and have a few problems with that as well, although I haven't
finished writing down the problems I have with it.


Umm, reprocessing would eliminate 90% of the "waste", including the
water-soluble Actinides and Lanthanides. Using the the Integral Fast
Reactor, (or an updated version thereof), that was designed
specifically to meet President Carter's request/order for a
proliferation-proof reactor design would perform the reprocessing on-
site. If I'm not mistaken, the "spent" fuel transfer could be
performed almost entirely by remote control.

But, of course, a Presidential Executive Order forbids reprocessing.
Why? Precisely because it is so cheap already that the United State
uranium mining industry is shutdown. Fuel in the Integral Fast
Reactor, (solid rods in a design that cannot cause a core meltdown, by
the way), can be reprocessed until 90% of their initial radioactivity
has been "burned up" in the generation of power instead the 9% that is
used in "conventional" light water reactors that throw away the
remaining 91% of the available radioactivity as (only very slightly
considering it very small volume) problematic "waste".

Well Helen seems a little short on numbers when it doesnt suit her. But
then, she also writes "facts" from unnamed dead people, which makes some of
her "facts" a little hard to check up on. She talks about Depleted uranium
in bombs... I've never heard of a bomb with DU in it (which doesnt mean
there isnt one of course. anyone?). And "Contrary to accepted norms of
wartime behavior, the U.S. attacked colums of retreating Iraqi soldiers-"
accepted?. by who? when? which war was that?

Nuclear power plants do occasionally have to release a tiny amount of
radioactive gas, (usually tritium IIRC), - one day I spent 10 minutes
getting some cleaned off of my new and statically-charged plastic
"bump" cap. But you're right, it is infinitesimal when compared to
the constant radioactive releases in the smoke from from coal-burning
power plants.

I like hydro-electric and wind power solutions, too. I especially
like smaller, individual-sized options. But I agree that those
massive dams could provide equally massive amounts of electricity for
many decades while causing less environmental damage that the coal,
oil, or gas-fired power plants required to provide an equal amount of
electricity.
 
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