Red, Green, Black, and White Wires

[W. Watson]

A year ago I allowed a neighbor who was building a house next to us access
to electricity in a small building on our property. He had an electrician
put in an outside receptacle. A few weeks after he no longer had any need
for it, I decided to use that as a way to get electricity 100' away as a new
outlet for a pond pump and outdoor light. All the wire is in place and
underground. It took me until now to finish off the connection at the building.

Here's the situation. He connected the receptacle directly to the switch box
in the building, and the wires are: ground, red, black and white. I long
ago, 10 months ago, disconnected those wires and taped them. The wiring I
have underground to the pond area uses white, green, and ground. For 120 v,
I believe the whites go together, and the green goes to black, correct? It
appears that the red wire allows for 240v, so I'll just tape it off. I'm
still a bit puzzled why the guy used red at all. Doesn't a 240 v outlet have
a socket entirely different than one for 120v?

An oddity about this is that he apparently has the outside outlet on two
switches in the switch box. Unless both are off, then they appear to be
alive when either or both are on. When both are on, I get either 240v or
120v depending on which pair combo I measure. It is possible for me to
contact the electrician, so maybe I can review what he did. Comments?

 

[Sam Goldwasser]

A year ago I allowed a neighbor who was building a house next to us
access to electricity in a small building on our property. He had an
electrician put in an outside receptacle. A few weeks after he no
longer had any need for it, I decided to use that as a way to get
electricity 100' away as a new outlet for a pond pump and outdoor
light. All the wire is in place and underground. It took me until now
to finish off the connection at the building.

Here's the situation. He connected the receptacle directly to the
switch box in the building, and the wires are: ground, red, black and
white. I long ago, 10 months ago, disconnected those wires and taped
them. The wiring I have underground to the pond area uses white,
green, and ground. For 120 v, I believe the whites go together, and

Better not. Green should ONLY be using for the (Safety) ground.

White is Neutral
Black or red is Hot.
Green or bare copper is ground.

the green goes to black, correct? It appears that the red wire allows

If all you have in the conduit is white, green, and bare copper, then
that is your only choice but that green wire has to be unambiguously
labeled as Hot by painting the insulation near the ends black.
And, it had better be the proper gauge.

for 240v, so I'll just tape it off. I'm still a bit puzzled why the
guy used red at all. Doesn't a 240 v outlet have a socket entirely
different than one for 120v?

There are various versions depending on maximum current but at the very
least, the prongs are oriented differently.

An oddity about this is that he apparently has the outside outlet on
two switches in the switch box. Unless both are off, then they appear
to be alive when either or both are on. When both are on, I get either
240v or 120v depending on which pair combo I measure. It is possible
for me to contact the electrician, so maybe I can review what he
did. Comments?

Note that if it was a 230 VAC circuit, the breakers should have been
ganged so if either tripped, they both went off. However, now, the
way it was hooked up is correct for seprate circuits.

To be sure about all this, it would be a good idea to have a qualitifed
electrician check it over.

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[PeterD]

If all you have in the conduit is white, green, and bare copper, then
that is your only choice but that green wire has to be unambiguously
labeled as Hot by painting the insulation near the ends black.
And, it had better be the proper gauge.

Never, ever, use green for anything other than ground. Period. Say
some idiot comes along in the future and gets killed because you used
green for hot--you're on the hook for that one. Say the building
inspector sees it? Use the wires the way they are intended to be
used...

 

[W. Watson]

Better not. Green should ONLY be using for the (Safety) ground.

Yes, bad memory. There is no bare copper.

White is Neutral
Black or red is Hot.
Green or bare copper is ground.


If all you have in the conduit is white, green, and bare copper, then
that is your only choice but that green wire has to be unambiguously
labeled as Hot by painting the insulation near the ends black.
And, it had better be the proper gauge.


There are various versions depending on maximum current but at the very
least, the prongs are oriented differently.

Thanks. I think I'll get the the guy's phone number and call him. I have a
feeling he didn't use the red. It was snipped off, but may have been taped.

 

[W. Watson]

Yep, bad memory. There were black, green and white in the conduit.

 

[jakdedert]

Yep, bad memory. There were black, green and white in the conduit.

That makes more sense, but I like your advice about calling the
electrician. If I were doing this, I'd hook up my voltmeter and simply
verify the original wiring. Likely, what I would measure would be line
voltage from either the red or black wires, to either the bare or the
white wire.

This is an area where you don't want to be 'guessing'. If you don't
have the proper equipment, you either need to get it, borrow it (and
understand how it works) or let someone else do it. A little bit of
knowledge (which you do appear to have) can be very dangerous in these
situations.

As to the wires in the conduit. If you really had just a white, green
and bare wire, my advice would be to use the bare wire to pull in a new
length of black wire. It wouldn't have been all that hard to do, and
would have insured that everything remained legal and kosher.

Thankfully, that issue has been resolved. Are electrical codes
inspections required for new work in your locality?

jak

 

[Don Bowey]

Never, ever, use green for anything other than ground. Period. Say
some idiot comes along in the future and gets killed because you used
green for hot--you're on the hook for that one. Say the building
inspector sees it? Use the wires the way they are intended to be
used...

While you offer some good cautious advice, we do have a NEC case where a
white wire can be designated as a hot wire by taping the ends black or red.

IMO, if the green wire is *verified* at the breaker to be a hot lead AND the
gauge and insulation types are valid, then I don't see a problem with
color-taping *BOTH* ends black or red and using it as a hot wire.

 

[Don Bowey]

Yes, bad memory. There is no bare copper.

Yes and No....... If it's for use by 240V equipment, then yes. But it is
acceptable to connect each side of a 240V feed to half of a 120V duplex
outlet, with the neutral common to both. Kitchens outlets are commonly
wired this way. My shop is also wired this way.

 

[jakdedert]

While you offer some good cautious advice, we do have a NEC case where a
white wire can be designated as a hot wire by taping the ends black or red.

IMO, if the green wire is *verified* at the breaker to be a hot lead AND the
gauge and insulation types are valid, then I don't see a problem with
color-taping *BOTH* ends black or red and using it as a hot wire.

I guess I'm a little more cautious in my old age. I could 'maybe' get
behind color-taping a wire with red tape. While probably legal, I'm
dead-set against doing it with black. Trouble is, IMM, that black tape
is so common that it could easily be overlooked or discounted at a
casual glance. Red is a little different in that--being red--it might
inspire at least caution, if not a full-stop and verification before
going further.

I've done it with Cam-loc (Cleco) connectors, but in those situations,
the entire connector was covered with the correct color tape; and *all*
of the conductors were black anyway.

In any case, since the OP stated all the wires go through a conduit, I
think I'd just replace the offending wire to code.

jak

 

[Don Bowey]

I guess I'm a little more cautious in my old age. I could 'maybe' get
behind color-taping a wire with red tape. While probably legal, I'm
dead-set against doing it with black. Trouble is, IMM, that black tape
is so common that it could easily be overlooked or discounted at a
casual glance. Red is a little different in that--being red--it might
inspire at least caution, if not a full-stop and verification before
going further.

I've done it with Cam-loc (Cleco) connectors, but in those situations,
the entire connector was covered with the correct color tape; and *all*
of the conductors were black anyway.

In any case, since the OP stated all the wires go through a conduit, I
think I'd just replace the offending wire to code.

jak

Both red and black should raise one's awareness while working around hot, or
even questionable, services.

Thinking more on this though, I don't recall ever seeing green "power" wire.
I wonder if the wire in the conduit is appliance wire (rubber outer cover
with white, black, red, green stranded wires). If so, without checking the
NEC, I don't think this wire correct at all for how it's being used.

 

[James Sweet]

Both red and black should raise one's awareness while working around hot,
or
even questionable, services.

Thinking more on this though, I don't recall ever seeing green "power"
wire.
I wonder if the wire in the conduit is appliance wire (rubber outer cover
with white, black, red, green stranded wires). If so, without checking
the
NEC, I don't think this wire correct at all for how it's being used.

Red and black are both perfectly acceptable to use as hot. White may also be
used in some circumstances but it must be marked with either red or black.
Properly applied wire nuts do not normally need to be taped, so the only
reason tape would be on a wire in a box is to mark the color. I'd have to
check, but I seem to recall that it's forbidden to use a green wire for
anything but ground, it's certainly not advisable.

That said, the OP responded to say that he got the colors wrong and that
black, white, and green are what he has, which is precisely what I'd expect
for a 120V branch wired with THHN in conduit. I guess people missed that.

 

[jakdedert]

Both red and black should raise one's awareness while working around hot, or
even questionable, services.

Thinking more on this though, I don't recall ever seeing green "power" wire.
I wonder if the wire in the conduit is appliance wire (rubber outer cover
with white, black, red, green stranded wires). If so, without checking the
NEC, I don't think this wire correct at all for how it's being used.

He's already stated his error in the colors. The conductors pulled were
correct; white/black/green. I imagine all else is kosher as well. I
don't know who pulled the wires, or why they weren't hooked up at the time.

My reservation about color-taping was not directed at professionals, but
at the odd homeowner 15 or 20 years down the line. The practice is
apparently more common than I imagined, and--red or black--would flag
itself to a pro.

jak

 

[James Sweet]

My reservation about color-taping was not directed at professionals, but
at the odd homeowner 15 or 20 years down the line. The practice is
apparently more common than I imagined, and--red or black--would flag
itself to a pro.

The most common place you see this is in switch legs where power is supplied
directly to the ceiling box where the light fixture is mounted and then a
separate drop goes from that to the switch. In that case both wires in that
drop are technically hot, so the white one gets taped black and connects to
the light fixture.


The ones that get me are those houses where someone used whatever color wire
they had on hand for whatever, I see that in cars a lot of times too. Always
verify, and never underestimate the crazy things that some previous person
may have done. When I bought my house, all the switches downstairs were on
the neutral side which caused me to get bit pretty good once. Yes, I should
have shut off the breaker.

 

[Sam Goldwasser]

Yep, bad memory. There were black, green and white in the conduit.

So, black-black, white-white, bare copper to bare copper (or green).

And, of course, splices using proper size solderless connectors ("Wire
Nuts") or other acceptable means, inside proper elecrical boxes!

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[Sam Goldwasser]

Yes and No....... If it's for use by 240V equipment, then yes. But it is
acceptable to connect each side of a 240V feed to half of a 120V duplex
outlet, with the neutral common to both. Kitchens outlets are commonly
wired this way. My shop is also wired this way.

But this is a 115 VAC outlet providing 115 VAC, not a 230 VAC outlet.

Only those with Frankstein tendencies will jerryrig a 230 VAC appliance
into a split duplex outlet!!!

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[Don Bowey]

(snip)

But this is a 115 VAC outlet providing 115 VAC, not a 230 VAC outlet.

It isn't used to provide 240V service. It provides two 120V outlets, each
with it's own 120V feed from opposite sides of the breaker box (separate
phase).

Only those with Frankstein tendencies will jerryrig a 230 VAC appliance
into a split duplex outlet!!!

You're entitled to your opinion, but it's a standard wiring configuration
straight out of the NEC.

 

[Sam Goldwasser]

It isn't used to provide 240V service. It provides two 120V outlets, each
with it's own 120V feed from opposite sides of the breaker box (separate
phase).


You're entitled to your opinion, but it's a standard wiring configuration
straight out of the NEC.

You're saying that NEC recommends jerryrigging a special cord with two
plugs to get 230 VAC from a split 115 VAC outlet?

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[Don Bowey]

You're saying that NEC recommends jerryrigging a special cord with two
plugs to get 230 VAC from a split 115 VAC outlet?

No the NEC doesn't, but you apparently can't get past what you think.

It is not jerryrigging to provide two 120V feeds using a 3-wire with ground
(Bk, Red, Wht, & bare copper) cable.

The NEC does not describe all the ways a configuration might be used; that
is left to you, which you have done well.

 

[James Sweet]

No the NEC doesn't, but you apparently can't get past what you think.

It is not jerryrigging to provide two 120V feeds using a 3-wire with
ground
(Bk, Red, Wht, & bare copper) cable.

The NEC does not describe all the ways a configuration might be used; that
is left to you, which you have done well.

He never did say that wiring of the outlet was incorrect, just that use. You
guys are on the same page and arguing about different things.

 

[Thor]

No the NEC doesn't, but you apparently can't get past what you think.

It is not jerryrigging to provide two 120V feeds using a 3-wire with ground
(Bk, Red, Wht, & bare copper) cable.

The NEC does not describe all the ways a configuration might be used; that
is left to you, which you have done well.

I am sure you can not feed a split duplex outlet with 240 volts if the outlet is
only rated for 125 volts. Article 410-56(a) Article 110-3

Only the grounded conductor and the grounding conductor have specified colors.
Article 200-6