Politicians and energy policy

[Paul E. Schoen]

Oh, well, when gasoline hits mayb $50, $100/gal, people will drive less,
thereby palliating the "global warming" problem, right? >:->

OOps - "climate change" - they really don't know if we're all going to
freeze to death or cook, but as long as we all pay obeisance (and our
money) to prince Al, he'll make it all better.

It seems that prices in much of the rest of the world are $6-$9/gallon, and
that's about where ours will start to stabilize. Hopefully that will reduce
the waste of energy by many of the people who commute long distances in
stop and go traffic in their SUVs. But it will probably be more as a result
of their jobs being eliminated as energy costs drive everything else up.

Here is an interesting link that shows who is making the most from higher
fuel prices:

http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/margins/index.html

If these figures can be believed, there is really very little profit being
made by US distributors, and the profits of refineries has dropped in the
last year or so, but the biggest cost by far is the price of crude oil. And
that money goes pretty much directly to the King of Saudi Arabia.

Still, this does not explain the much higher cost of motor fuel in Europe.
It seems to be from taxes, and they are levied as a percentage of price as
well as per unit quantity. I found this in a post:

....here the prices in Germany:

benzin 1 liter à 1,50 Euro (tax 65,45 €cent/Liter + VAT 19%)
diesel 1 liter à 1,50 Euro (tax 47,04 €cent/Liter + VAT 19%)

It was about the same in Italy.

Paul

 

[MooseFET]

It's only good if you need hot water you twit.

What a wonderful argument. Lets see where you take it from here.

In fact, if you want to store heat effectively you should use certain waxes whose phase
change from solid to liquid occues at a practical temperature for heating. Energy stored as
a phase change is vastly more effective.

Phase change materials store energy quite well but they cost a lot of
money compared to water and being solid, they don't pump through pipes
very well. This drives the expense even higher. But if that's the
way you want to go, more power to you.

So far a surprisingly thoughtful argument.

The energy density of even the very best batteries is *dismal*.

But if it is part of an electric car, it makes a lot os sense to
consider them as part of the variable load. Note the "if" part of the
statement.

 

[MooseFET]

It would be fun to build a dummy thermostat that slowly moved back to
whatever the landlord had set it at, after a ten or fifteen minute wait.

Many years back someone where I work was provided with her very own
thermostat complete with a blinking LED and a a know for setting the
temperature. She was a lot more comfortable from then until someone
told her it was just a box with a blinking light.

 

[JosephKK]

For this to be meaningful, the consumers have to see different rates
for peak usage and non-peak usage. The utility company told us to
pump the pool at night (supposedly non-peak usage), but we are paying
the same either way. Only total kilowatt hours matter anyway.

Time of use electric meters are standard technology. Just 'cause you
don't have one does not mean that they do not exist.

 

[JosephKK]

When I was a kid, we had "dumb" electric meters, one for the water
heater and one for the rest of the house. But we had "smart" rates.
If we let the power company set the water heater meter so that it was
cut off during peak load times, we got a break on the rate.

I think that a lot of this should be done by providing rates dependent
on the aggregate amount of juice used. If rates were higher during
the day, *everyone* would be cutting back on electricity use during
the day.

I don't see how the "smart" load controls can do a good job. For all
practical purposes this is exactly the same as a rolling blackout,
just spread out rather than being focused on a specific area. If my
AC is running 80% of the day to keep the house cool and the meter cuts
"levels" it for an hour, that just means it will run continuously for
the rest of the day playing catchup raising the peak load the rest of
the day. This would cause other houses to be "leveled" which will
raise the peak load the rest of the day, resulting in more
"leveling"... You see where this is going. Load leveling won't
reduce peaks without having an effect on the average temperature in
the places being cooled... unless there is some means of leveling over
a 24 hour period which requires energy storage.

The point of using the hybrid batteries for this is that they are
actually well suited to night time charging since that is when they
are not otherwise used and as long as you aren't running them, they
represent untapped power generation. This is a useful way to level
the load over a 24 hour period.

My concern about using the hybrids this way is that the batteries will
wear out earlier and these are some seriously expensive batteries.
But that is the point of paying the consumer for his storage of
energy. Since this is all done with rate changes between day and
night, the consumer will be the one paying and power usage will also
be moderated during the day.

Someone said you have to "dehumidify" during the day... maybe you do
to some degree, but if you aren't in the house, there is very little
moisture entering it. It is when you open the doors that most of the
moisture enters the house. That can be removed at night when you need
to cool the house. The "smart" controls need to be able to turn the
AC way back when you are not there and then return the house to the
conditions you want *before* you return home. So they need to be
controlled from your cell phone or from your work computer. A simple
timer just doesn't cut it for many of us not on a timetable.

Rick

I have a time of day & day of week thermostat with convenient user
override. It helps a bit.

 

[JosephKK]

The problem is still the battery technology (longevity, cost, storage
density, safety). Selling power back to the utility at a fair price
was provided for in 1969 by the Public Utilities Regulatory Policy Act
(PURPA).

Maybe we could harness that politician's hot air?

Frank

All that much? Do you want to vaporize the grid?

 

[JosephKK]

Like this?
http://pricedingold.com/us-retail-gasoline/


martin

No particular surprise. How about 30 and 80 year charts as well?

 

[MooseFET]

What's really sad is when some idiot pries one of those expensive
plexiglas shields off a dummy thermostat, damaging the wall and shield
in the process then thinks the room is actually warmer.

We really love the illusion of being in control of things even when we
aren't really. The feeling that you are not in control increases your
discomfort level a great deal. People often don't notice they hurt
them selves at a sport when they are winning the game.

In the building I worked in some years back, the thermostat for one
area was in another and the others was in the one. The result was a
nifty flip flop where one heater or the other would run flat out until
in managed to actually warm the other area up indirectly. Some days,
when I was working on something that was actually working, I wouldn't
notice. Others, I would nearly die from the heat. I am sure that the
temperature was always just as uncomfortable.

BTW: In the summer, people could put on extra layers of clothing so
the air conditioning flip-flop was less troubling.

At one time my mother was always complaining that she was cold, and I
convinced her that it was all in her mind. I had just got out of the
service after a year in Alaska where it was below -20 for most of the
year. After a couple weeks I never saw her shivering, or heard her
complain, yet the thermostat hadn't moved. And no, she wasn't old enough
to be having hot flashes.

Activity also makes a huge difference as does eating. It is very
likely that what you eat matters too.

 

[krw]

It seems that prices in much of the rest of the world are $6-$9/gallon, and
that's about where ours will start to stabilize. Hopefully that will reduce

Ever hear of taxes? Oil is oil. The weenies pay a lot more taxes.

the waste of energy by many of the people who commute long distances in
stop and go traffic in their SUVs. But it will probably be more as a result
of their jobs being eliminated as energy costs drive everything else up.

You'd like that.

Here is an interesting link that shows who is making the most from higher
fuel prices:

http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/margins/index.html

If these figures can be believed, there is really very little profit being
made by US distributors, and the profits of refineries has dropped in the
last year or so, but the biggest cost by far is the price of crude oil. And
that money goes pretty much directly to the King of Saudi Arabia.
Surprise!

Still, this does not explain the much higher cost of motor fuel in Europe..
It seems to be from taxes, and they are levied as a percentage of price as
well as per unit quantity. I found this in a post:

Ah HA! He does understand the obvious, after all.

 

[JosephKK]

On Tue, 27 May 2008 06:17:17 -0700 (PDT), in sci.electronics.design

snip
This is one way to store it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinorwig_power_station


martin

That's neat. And it spools up and down a bit faster than normal
hydroelectric.

 

[JosephKK]

I recall reading somewhere that the majority of our imported oil comes
from Canada.

It is the leading source currently, but nowhere near the majority
supplier. See:
http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/...ns/company_level_imports/current/import.htmlY

 

[Simon S Aysdie]

So what happens when that fuel runs out?  Oh...

Reprocessing isn't free, and in fact it costs a significant portion of the
reactor's output.  I've heard figures of only three times more capacity to
burn U238 --> Pu239 and other transuranics, when reprocessing is factored
in.  Considering U235 is less than 1% of naturally occuring fuel, that'sa
considerable loss, going from over 100 times down to just 3.  Hardly seems
worth the expense.

Breeders can use thorium too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breeder_Reactor

 

[JosephKK]

We've been on time-of-use metering for around 6 years. We come out
about 20% cheaper than flat rate, even though we're here during the
day. Just the pool pump (2HP) alone timed to run only off-peak saves
us about $60/month.

...Jim Thompson

Between us we just about skinned linnix proper.