Politicians and energy policy

[krw]

in messageOn Fri, 23 May 2008 09:25:52 -0700, "Bob Eld"

[snip]

The governor of Wyoming wants to make synthetic gasoline out of
Wyoming coal. That actually makes more sense because it powers
existing vehicles. With the Hybrids the total fleet would have to
change.

But, coal in NOT the answer. The better answer is biofuels. They
must be fully developed an implemented.

Biofuels? Is that what you get when you convert leftist weenie bull
shit into methane ?

...Jim Thompson

No, actually it's collecting and utilizing the hot air, smoke and
intestinal gas from CONservative politicians and blow hard talk show
host and other repug nitwits out there. This smoke and gas is used to
raise steam in giant boilers to operate a closed rankine cycle power
plant. There is enough blow off from these jackasses to generate about
8 GWatts of power.

As with most thermodynamic cycles, republicans and CONservatives,
about 60% goes right up the chimney doing NO USEFUL work. Carnot
didn't realize he had to deal with republicans!

Yet it's guys like AlGore that use energy FAR above the ordinary household
in energy,while promoting "green" for everyone else.Or like liberal Ted
Kennedy who blocked the windfarm slated for far off his Hyannisport
compound.
Also the jet-set Hollywood liberals that fly on private planes instead of
more-efficient commercial passenger jets.

Leftist weenies are far more "do as I say and not as I do" than
convervatives.

There aren't all that many leftist weenies who have the resources to
be as extravagant as the representative rightist, and I'd guess that a
rather smaller proportion of that small group actually exploit that
capacity when you compare them with their right wing equivalents.

Al Gore and his staff do use a lot of energy, but they also
communicate the global warming message on a large scale. Exxon-Mobil
committed comparable shareholder resources to getting corruptible
"scientists" to exploit their established reputations by publishing
junk science in an effort to discredit the good science behind the
global warming message. I'd be inclined to say that Al Gore's
extravagance - such as it is - is rather more morally justifiable.

The "Do as I say, not as I do" method doesn't get many sane
followers. But then, he is on YOUR side.

Sanity certainly isn't necessary to follow AlBore. As you point
out, Slowman is a perfect example.

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On May 24, 11:12 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <[email protected]>
wrote:
[....]
The bottom line is that even leaky houses don't leak
unless something is pushing the air.

Hot, wet winds are enough. Unless you want to calk every door and
window shut, there WILL be ingresion of humid air. If you seal it up
that tight, the humidity will rise from human breath, and sweat. If you
think 90 is bad, smpend some time down here after ahurricane when it's
over 100 degrees, with no electricity.

You forgot to mension temperature cycling. In Florida, a very air
tight house would still pump its self full of water in a few weeks
from that. All of the wall spaces etc will be full of humid air in
fairly short order after the house is built.

The idea of using a "smart" electric meter to achieve the same power
reducing effect as rolling blackouts is bogus.

Only if you don't understand how it works. I live alone right now.
The water heater comes on after midnight for about 1.5 hours, and gives
me usable hot water for the full 24 hour day.

Some places they are talking about having the utility send signals
around that tells the optional loads like water heaters to come on and
off with a finer grain than just a fixed time. This allows the load
to be made much more level.

That's what we were discussing (networked power meters that
controlled appliances in the house).

Oh. I thought the "smart power meter" was just the ones that varied
the rate depending on time of day.

I know it was already mensioned but a low tech version was in use for
many years. Many areas may still have some of the wiring for the
"flat rate water heaters". It seems like that would be a good idea to
bring back.

No wiring needed anymore. RF or carrier current signaling are all
that's needed. I'm undecided about the merits. What's the cost
differential (i.e. make it an option)?

Back in the days of the flat rate water heaters, the price difference
was huge for the power. The voltage on the flat rate wire was always
less than or equal 220V and the power company could change it in steps
other than on/off. The advantage for the power company was that it
could change the loading to hold it more or less constant over time.
This made the power plant design a lot simpler since it didn't have to
change power outputs very quickly.

The non-carbon based power plants are all harder to vary the power out
of so I can see this idea coming back. Things like solar, wind, and
hydro-electric generally cost a lot to build but the last watt is
basically free. For them it makes a lot of sense to have a load that
the power company can control.

Our power producer (Hydro One) is pushing a scheme where you install a
(free) web-enabled thermostat so they can reduce peak demand by
cranking down your A/C at peak periods.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

 

[Jim Yanik]

Jim Thompson <[email protected]>
wrote in




On Fri, 23 May 2008 15:53:24 -0700, "Bob Eld"

"Jim Thompson" <[email protected]>
wrote in
messageOn Fri, 23 May 2008 09:25:52 -0700, "Bob Eld"

[snip]

The governor of Wyoming wants to make synthetic gasoline out
of Wyoming coal. That actually makes more sense because it
powers existing vehicles. With the Hybrids the total fleet
would have to change.

But, coal in NOT the answer. The better answer is biofuels.
They must be fully developed an implemented.

Biofuels? Is that what you get when you convert leftist
weenie bull shit into methane ?

...Jim Thompson

No, actually it's collecting and utilizing the hot air, smoke
and intestinal gas from CONservative politicians and blow hard
talk show host and other repug nitwits out there. This smoke
and gas is used to raise steam in giant boilers to operate a
closed rankine cycle power plant. There is enough blow off from
these jackasses to generate about 8 GWatts of power.

As with most thermodynamic cycles, republicans and
CONservatives, about 60% goes right up the chimney doing NO
USEFUL work. Carnot didn't realize he had to deal with
republicans!

Yet it's guys like AlGore that use energy FAR above the ordinary
household in energy,while promoting "green" for everyone else.Or
like liberal Ted Kennedy who blocked the windfarm slated for far
off his Hyannisport compound.
Also the jet-set Hollywood liberals that fly on private planes
instead of more-efficient commercial passenger jets.

Leftist weenies are far more "do as I say and not as I do" than
convervatives.

There aren't all that many leftist weenies who have the resources
to be as extravagant as the representative rightist, and I'd guess
that a rather smaller proportion of that small group actually
exploit that capacity when you compare them with their right wing
equivalents.

Al Gore and his staff do use a lot of energy, but they also
communicate the global warming message on a large scale.

AlGore's staff doesn't live at his HOME.
I doubt they work there,either,except for the domestic help.

I wonder where Al is getting the money to do all this "communicating the GW
message"?

Ah,the conspiracy theory appears.
And of course,if the "scientists" don't agree with the GW viewpoint,then
they are "corruptable" and not scientists,but "scientists".

 

[krw]

When I was a kid, we had "dumb" electric meters, one for the water
heater and one for the rest of the house. But we had "smart" rates.
If we let the power company set the water heater meter so that it was
cut off during peak load times, we got a break on the rate.

Some had two meters, one with a timer for the large load.

I think that a lot of this should be done by providing rates dependent
on the aggregate amount of juice used. If rates were higher during
the day, *everyone* would be cutting back on electricity use during
the day.

Nothing stopping that, though you need the smart meter.

I don't see how the "smart" load controls can do a good job. For all
practical purposes this is exactly the same as a rolling blackout,
just spread out rather than being focused on a specific area. If my
AC is running 80% of the day to keep the house cool and the meter cuts
"levels" it for an hour, that just means it will run continuously for
the rest of the day playing catchup raising the peak load the rest of
the day. This would cause other houses to be "leveled" which will
raise the peak load the rest of the day, resulting in more
"leveling"... You see where this is going. Load leveling won't
reduce peaks without having an effect on the average temperature in
the places being cooled... unless there is some means of leveling over
a 24 hour period which requires energy storage.

Playing "catchup" is a misnomer. Setback thermostats do this now.

Shedding just AC loads would keep the lighting on, and of course the
all important TeeVee. Should help keep crime down. Blackouts in
major cities aren't a good thing.

Someone said you have to "dehumidify" during the day... maybe you do
to some degree, but if you aren't in the house, there is very little
moisture entering it. It is when you open the doors that most of the
moisture enters the house. That can be removed at night when you need
to cool the house. The "smart" controls need to be able to turn the
AC way back when you are not there and then return the house to the
conditions you want *before* you return home. So they need to be
controlled from your cell phone or from your work computer. A simple
timer just doesn't cut it for many of us not on a timetable.

You want to *keep* the humidity down. You save money by lowering
the temperature differential. You LOSE money by letting the
humidity rise. Unless you're JT, humidity is more important than
the temperature.

 

[[email protected]]

[email protected] wrote:
Jim Thompson <[email protected]>
wrote in
@My-Web-Site.com>
wrote in
messageOn Fri, 23 May 2008 09:25:52 -0700, "Bob Eld"
[snip]
The governor of Wyoming wants to make synthetic gasoline out
of Wyoming coal. That actually makes more sense because it
powers existing vehicles. With the Hybrids the total fleet
would have to change.
But, coal in NOT the answer. The better answer is biofuels.
They must be fully developed an implemented.
Biofuels?  Is that what you get when you convert leftist
weenie bull shit into methane ?
                                       ...Jim Thompson
No, actually it's collecting and utilizing the hot air, smoke
and intestinal gas from CONservative politicians and blow hard
talk show host and other repug nitwits out there. This smoke
and gas is used to raise steam in giant boilers to operate a
closed rankine cycle power plant. There is enough blow off from
these jackasses to generate about 8 GWatts of power.
As with most thermodynamic cycles, republicans and
CONservatives, about 60% goes right up the chimney doing NO
USEFUL work. Carnot didn't realize he had to deal with
republicans!
Yet it's guys like AlGore that use energy FAR above the ordinary
household in energy,while promoting "green" for everyone else.Or
like liberal Ted Kennedy who blocked the windfarm slated for far
off his Hyannisport compound.
Also the jet-set Hollywood liberals that fly on private planes
instead of more-efficient commercial passenger jets.
Leftist weenies are far more "do as I say and not as I do" than
convervatives.
There aren't all that many leftist weenies who have the resources
to be as extravagant as the representative rightist, and I'd guess
that a rather smaller proportion of that small group actually
exploit that capacity when you compare them with their right wing
equivalents.
Al Gore and his staff do use a lot of energy, but they also
communicate the global warming message on a large scale.

AlGore's staff doesn't live at his HOME.
I doubt they work there,either,except for the domestic help.

I wonder where Al is getting the money to do all this "communicating the GW
message"?

http://www.gore.com/en_xx/

They make Goretex and some very nice printed circuit substrates for
high speed circuits, amongst other things.

Ah,the conspiracy theory appears.

Sadly, it isn't just a theory. Some of the "scientists" involved were
also shills for the tobacco companies, denying that smoking damaged
yoyr health. It's actually a thoroughly entertaining story. I came
across it in George Monbiot's book "Heat" ISBN 0-7139-9924-1. I've
posted the details here before.

And of course,if the "scientists" don't agree with the GW viewpoint,then
they are "corruptable" and not scientists,but "scientists".

By no means all of them. There are always contrarians around, and
there have to be aspects of climate science where the majority view is
superficial and misleading.

Exxon-Mobil hasn't spent all that much money on buying counter-
propaganda, and recently claimed that they'd stopped doing it - which
might even be true.

Al Gore is member of a seriously rich family. He's obviously not St.
Francis of Assisi, which doesn't stop him from having a commendable
enthusiasm for spreading the global warming message, nor suggest that
the message he is spreading is wrong.

And Jim Yanik is a gun nut, which doesn't suggest that his ideas on
what is sane are entirely reliable.

 

[MooseFET]

On May 24, 11:12 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <[email protected]>
wrote:
[....]

Hot, wet winds are enough. Unless you want to calk every door and
window shut, there WILL be ingresion of humid air. If you seal it up
that tight, the humidity will rise from human breath, and sweat. If you
think 90 is bad, smpend some time down here after ahurricane when it's
over 100 degrees, with no electricity.

You forgot to mension temperature cycling. In Florida, a very air
tight house would still pump its self full of water in a few weeks
from that. All of the wall spaces etc will be full of humid air in
fairly short order after the house is built.

Only if you don't understand how it works. I live alone right now.
The water heater comes on after midnight for about 1.5 hours, and gives
me usable hot water for the full 24 hour day.

Some places they are talking about having the utility send signals
around that tells the optional loads like water heaters to come on and
off with a finer grain than just a fixed time. This allows the load
to be made much more level.

 

[krw]

On May 24, 11:12 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <[email protected]>
wrote:
[....]

Hot, wet winds are enough. Unless you want to calk every door and
window shut, there WILL be ingresion of humid air. If you seal it up
that tight, the humidity will rise from human breath, and sweat. If you
think 90 is bad, smpend some time down here after ahurricane when it's
over 100 degrees, with no electricity.

You forgot to mension temperature cycling. In Florida, a very air
tight house would still pump its self full of water in a few weeks
from that. All of the wall spaces etc will be full of humid air in
fairly short order after the house is built.

Only if you don't understand how it works. I live alone right now.
The water heater comes on after midnight for about 1.5 hours, and gives
me usable hot water for the full 24 hour day.

Some places they are talking about having the utility send signals
around that tells the optional loads like water heaters to come on and
off with a finer grain than just a fixed time. This allows the load
to be made much more level.

That's what we were discussing (networked power meters that
controlled appliances in the house).

 

[MooseFET]

On May 24, 11:12 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <[email protected]>
wrote:
[....]

The bottom line is that even leaky houses don't leak
unless something is pushing the air.
Hot, wet winds are enough. Unless you want to calk every door and
window shut, there WILL be ingresion of humid air. If you seal it up
that tight, the humidity will rise from human breath, and sweat. If you
think 90 is bad, smpend some time down here after ahurricane when it's
over 100 degrees, with no electricity.

You forgot to mension temperature cycling. In Florida, a very air
tight house would still pump its self full of water in a few weeks
from that. All of the wall spaces etc will be full of humid air in
fairly short order after the house is built.

Some places they are talking about having the utility send signals
around that tells the optional loads like water heaters to come on and
off with a finer grain than just a fixed time. This allows the load
to be made much more level.

That's what we were discussing (networked power meters that
controlled appliances in the house).

Oh. I thought the "smart power meter" was just the ones that varied
the rate depending on time of day.

I know it was already mensioned but a low tech version was in use for
many years. Many areas may still have some of the wiring for the
"flat rate water heaters". It seems like that would be a good idea to
bring back.

 

[krw]

On May 24, 11:12 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <[email protected]>
wrote:
[....]
The bottom line is that even leaky houses don't leak
unless something is pushing the air.

Hot, wet winds are enough. Unless you want to calk every door and
window shut, there WILL be ingresion of humid air. If you seal it up
that tight, the humidity will rise from human breath, and sweat. If you
think 90 is bad, smpend some time down here after ahurricane when it's
over 100 degrees, with no electricity.

You forgot to mension temperature cycling. In Florida, a very air
tight house would still pump its self full of water in a few weeks
from that. All of the wall spaces etc will be full of humid air in
fairly short order after the house is built.

The idea of using a "smart" electric meter to achieve the same power
reducing effect as rolling blackouts is bogus.

Only if you don't understand how it works. I live alone right now.
The water heater comes on after midnight for about 1.5 hours, and gives
me usable hot water for the full 24 hour day.

Some places they are talking about having the utility send signals
around that tells the optional loads like water heaters to come on and
off with a finer grain than just a fixed time. This allows the load
to be made much more level.

That's what we were discussing (networked power meters that
controlled appliances in the house).

Oh. I thought the "smart power meter" was just the ones that varied
the rate depending on time of day.

I know it was already mensioned but a low tech version was in use for
many years. Many areas may still have some of the wiring for the
"flat rate water heaters". It seems like that would be a good idea to
bring back.

No wiring needed anymore. RF or carrier current signaling are all
that's needed. I'm undecided about the merits. What's the cost
differential (i.e. make it an option)?

 

[rickman]

Ok Mike, although I have spent significant time in Florida, I don't
want to argue this point endlessly. Besides, you seem to be rather
sleep deprived and I am sure you have better things to do. So I will
grant you that what I am saying does not apply to people living alone
in Florida. Ok?

However, I stand by my statements for the rest of us. I have spent
some significant time living without AC and I have a pretty good feel
for how a house responds to external weather. Humidity simply does
not enter the house easily unless the wind is blowing hard and even in
Florida, the wind does not blow hard all the time.

Regardless, my point about the lack of usefulness of controlling the
AC is valid. Someone else mentioned that they control the water
heaters. That is useful because a water heater can go without power
for hours and still provide usefully warm water. But the utility is
limited. Unless you are drawing hot water, the water heater cycles on
very infrequently. So by cutting off *all* water heaters during peak
loads saves only a *very* small amount of peak power.

The real power sink is the AC. An AC that is off for more than a half
an hour on a hot day will let the house get much warmer. Peak loads
are a lot longer than a half an hour. The result is that you have
simply made the AC draw no power for a little while and then draw a
lot more power for the rest of the time. On the average, this
provides *NO* reduction in peak power. Actually that is not correct;
there is a small savings in power because the house is warmer and less
heat enters a warmer house.

Maybe the fridge can be cut off during peak loads, like the water
heater. But if it is turned back on during the peak period, like the
AC, it is going to run continuously and consume the same amount of
energy on the average while letting your food get warmer. It may only
be a couple of degrees, but the milk will not keep as long at 40C as
it does at 35C and that is sort of the point of a fridge, keeping
things cold, no?

What other appliances can be cycled during peak loads, in a useful way
that won't impact their operation?

I understand the concept. I am saying that other than the water
heater, there is no point in this sort of control to reduce the peak
loads seen during the summer, and the water heater is not a
significant load during peak hours. So the entire idea is much ado
about nothing.

Rather than trying to be superior and cute with your little digs, why
don't you come up with something useful to say? I am happy to discuss
this, but you just seem to want to express an attitude.

 

[rickman]

On May 24, 11:12 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <[email protected]>
wrote:
[....]
The bottom line is that even leaky houses don't leak
unless something is pushing the air.
Hot, wet winds are enough. Unless you want to calk every door and
window shut, there WILL be ingresion of humid air. If you seal it up
that tight, the humidity will rise from human breath, and sweat. If you
think 90 is bad, smpend some time down here after ahurricane when it's
over 100 degrees, with no electricity.
You forgot to mension temperature cycling. In Florida, a very air
tight house would still pump its self full of water in a few weeks
from that. All of the wall spaces etc will be full of humid air in
fairly short order after the house is built.
The idea of using a "smart" electric meter to achieve the same power
reducing effect as rolling blackouts is bogus.
Only if you don't understand how it works. I live alone right now.
The water heater comes on after midnight for about 1.5 hours, and gives
me usable hot water for the full 24 hour day.
Some places they are talking about having the utility send signals
around that tells the optional loads like water heaters to come on and
off with a finer grain than just a fixed time. This allows the load
to be made much more level.
That's what we were discussing (networked power meters that
controlled appliances in the house).

Oh. I thought the "smart power meter" was just the ones that varied
the rate depending on time of day.

I know it was already mensioned but a low tech version was in use for
many years. Many areas may still have some of the wiring for the
"flat rate water heaters". It seems like that would be a good idea to
bring back.

No wiring needed anymore. RF or carrier current signaling are all
that's needed. I'm undecided about the merits. What's the cost
differential (i.e. make it an option)?

All the plans I have seen have a ***ZERO*** cost differential. Some
10 years ago, I was offered to have the power company install a
similar device on my hot water heater for free. But it did nothing
for me, so I declined. Other than the governor I mentioned in my
first post, I have not heard anyone talking about a lower rate in any
way, shape or form.

Even if they do lower the rate a bit for the off peak usage, how much
will they raise the peak rate??? I was in a house where the water
service changed their pricing to save consumers money if they
conserved water, in essence a reversed sliding scale, higher rates
with higher usage. It worked so well that they were bringing in less
money and had to raise the rates for everyone!!! I swear this is the
gosh honest truth. I was in college at the time and it was not a good
thing since none of us had much disposable income.

Even if we save the construction of a few power plants, the power
company will always be raising rates. Near here in Baltimore they
deregulated electric and the rates doubled!!! The whole idea of
deregulation was to save consumers money. Instead it just allowed the
utilities to make *more* money! But that is a whole 'nother story and
we won't talk about that.

Rick

 

[rickman]

Some had two meters, one with a timer for the large load.

I'm not sure we aren't talking past each other. I thought that was
what I described. We had two meters, one exclusively for the hot
water heater with a timer that shut it off during the typical peak
load period. If you let them install this second meter, you got a
reduced rate, likely only on the hot water meter, but a reduced rate
none the less.

Nothing stopping that, though you need the smart meter.

We didn't have a smart meter 40 years ago and it worked. Why do you
need a smart meter now? The smart meter is really a way to gain
control over your electric consumption in a very invasive way.
Letting the utility control the hot water heater had very little
impact on the household because the water heater could work
effectively even being shut off for four hours a day. But other loads
will be significantly impacted if they are shut off for even half an
hour. When they are shut off, it will have a noticeable impact on
their functioning. The power company doesn't care if you are cool in
the summer. They just want to reduce the amount of construction they
have to do.

Playing "catchup" is a misnomer. Setback thermostats do this now.

What is your point? A setback thermostat reduces the use of AC (or
heating) when no one is in the house. This has nothing to do with
peak loads. Typical peak loads are in the late afternoon and early
evening when people return home from work. They turn on appliances,
crank up the AC and start cooking dinner. Notice that the setback is
not being used. In fact, this is when the AC is having to work a lot
harder to bring the temperature to normal. It is *not* the time when
you want the power company cutting off your AC, even for 15 minutes.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, I am saying that anyone who tells
you it will save significant power ***without impacting your
comfort*** is lying.

Shedding just AC loads would keep the lighting on, and of course the
all important TeeVee. Should help keep crime down. Blackouts in
major cities aren't a good thing.

Now we are talking about a totally different thing. If there is not
enough capacity to meet peak demand, then yes, having your AC cut off
for 15 to 30 minutes is better than losing all power for 15 to 30
minutes. But the line I have heard is that the "smart" power meters
will reduce peak loads without impacting your comfort. Yeah, right...

What are the three big lies again? I'll respect you in the morning,
the check is in the mail and "I'm from the Government and I'm here to
help!"

You want to *keep* the humidity down. You save money by lowering
the temperature differential. You LOSE money by letting the
humidity rise. Unless you're JT, humidity is more important than
the temperature.

You won't see a significant humidity increase in a closed house over a
10 hour period. Heck, if it was cool during the night so that the
house was cool throughout, it takes until maybe 1 to 2 PM before the
house starts heating up inside. The heat goes through the windows
like they were windows while moisture has to find its way through the
very small cracks and gaps in the house construction. The newer
houses are all very tight and in fact, that is the real cause of Radon
in homes. The Radon gradually seeps through the basement floor and
walls and can't get out because the rest of the house is so air-
tight. However, if you open a window, the humidity will rise
noticeably in an hour or so. So don't leave your windows open during
the day and you won't have a humidity problem.

Rick

 

[rickman]

It may only
be a couple of degrees, but the milk will not keep as long at 40C as
it does at 35C and that is sort of the point of a fridge, keeping
things cold, no?

Opps, that should have been 40F and 35F... I am so used to using
metric for everything that I sometimes forget to use US units when
talking to others.

Rick

 

[MooseFET]

On May 24, 11:12 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <[email protected]>
wrote:
[....]
The bottom line is that even leaky houses don't leak
unless something is pushing the air.
Hot, wet winds are enough. Unless you want to calk every door and
window shut, there WILL be ingresion of humid air. If you seal it up
that tight, the humidity will rise from human breath, and sweat. If you
think 90 is bad, smpend some time down here after ahurricane when it's
over 100 degrees, with no electricity.
You forgot to mension temperature cycling. In Florida, a very air
tight house would still pump its self full of water in a few weeks
from that. All of the wall spaces etc will be full of humid air in
fairly short order after the house is built.
The idea of using a "smart" electric meter to achieve the same power
reducing effect as rolling blackouts is bogus.
Only if you don't understand how it works. I live alone right now.
The water heater comes on after midnight for about 1.5 hours, and gives
me usable hot water for the full 24 hour day.
Some places they are talking about having the utility send signals
around that tells the optional loads like water heaters to come on and
off with a finer grain than just a fixed time. This allows the load
to be made much more level.
That's what we were discussing (networked power meters that
controlled appliances in the house).

Oh. I thought the "smart power meter" was just the ones that varied
the rate depending on time of day.

I know it was already mensioned but a low tech version was in use for
many years. Many areas may still have some of the wiring for the
"flat rate water heaters". It seems like that would be a good idea to
bring back.

No wiring needed anymore. RF or carrier current signaling are all
that's needed. I'm undecided about the merits. What's the cost
differential (i.e. make it an option)?

Back in the days of the flat rate water heaters, the price difference
was huge for the power. The voltage on the flat rate wire was always
less than or equal 220V and the power company could change it in steps
other than on/off. The advantage for the power company was that it
could change the loading to hold it more or less constant over time.
This made the power plant design a lot simpler since it didn't have to
change power outputs very quickly.

The non-carbon based power plants are all harder to vary the power out
of so I can see this idea coming back. Things like solar, wind, and
hydro-electric generally cost a lot to build but the last watt is
basically free. For them it makes a lot of sense to have a load that
the power company can control.

 

[MooseFET]

Interesting. Gas prices have a ways to go yet. Perhaps $5.00 per gallon.

You can expect to see the rise slow down soon. The long term trend
will continue to be towards higher oil prices. There is a natural cap
somewhere around $200 per barrel. Oil sands and tar sands are
profitable up there. There is a huge amount of oil trapped in sands.

 

[Richard Henry]

Martin Griffith wrote:

Interesting. Gas prices have a ways to go yet. Perhaps $5.00 per gallon.

You can expect to see the rise slow down soon. The long term trend
will continue to be towards higher oil prices. There is a natural cap
somewhere around $200 per barrel. Oil sands and tar sands are
profitable up there. There is a huge amount of oil trapped in sands.

Oil sands should be popular at the current emotionally publicized
price of $130 (depending on the strength of the Canadian dollar, which
would likely get better if the oil sands extraction rate increases).

 

[Richard Henry]

You can expect to see the rise slow down soon.  The long term trend
will continue to be towards higher oil prices.  There is a natural cap
somewhere around $200 per barrel.  Oil sands and tar sands are
profitable up there.  There is a huge amount of oil trapped in sands.

Oil sands should be popular at the current emotionally publicized
price of $130 (depending on the strength of the Canadian dollar, which
would likely get better if the oil sands extraction rate increases).- Hidequoted text -

- Show quoted text -

OOps. "Popular" s/b "profitable".

 

[Tim Williams]

Oil sands should be popular at the current emotionally publicized
price of $130 (depending on the strength of the Canadian dollar, which
would likely get better if the oil sands extraction rate increases).

We're (US) already getting a considerable fraction of our oil from Canada.
Isn't most of this from tar sands?

Tim

 

[MooseFET]

On May 24, 11:12 pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <[email protected]>
wrote:
[....]
The bottom line is that even leaky houses don't leak
unless something is pushing the air.
Hot, wet winds are enough. Unless you want to calk every door and
window shut, there WILL be ingresion of humid air. If you seal it up
that tight, the humidity will rise from human breath, and sweat. If you
think 90 is bad, smpend some time down here after ahurricane when it's
over 100 degrees, with no electricity.
You forgot to mension temperature cycling. In Florida, a very air
tight house would still pump its self full of water in a few weeks
from that. All of the wall spaces etc will be full of humid air in
fairly short order after the house is built.
The idea of using a "smart" electric meter to achieve the same power
reducing effect as rolling blackouts is bogus.
Only if you don't understand how it works. I live alone right now.
The water heater comes on after midnight for about 1.5 hours, and gives
me usable hot water for the full 24 hour day.
Some places they are talking about having the utility send signals
around that tells the optional loads like water heaters to come on and
off with a finer grain than just a fixed time. This allows the load
to be made much more level.
That's what we were discussing (networked power meters that
controlled appliances in the house).
Oh. I thought the "smart power meter" was just the ones that varied
the rate depending on time of day.
I know it was already mensioned but a low tech version was in use for
many years. Many areas may still have some of the wiring for the
"flat rate water heaters". It seems like that would be a good idea to
bring back.
No wiring needed anymore. RF or carrier current signaling are all
that's needed. I'm undecided about the merits. What's the cost
differential (i.e. make it an option)?

Back in the days of the flat rate water heaters, the price difference
was huge for the power. The voltage on the flat rate wire was always
less than or equal 220V and the power company could change it in steps
other than on/off. The advantage for the power company was that it
could change the loading to hold it more or less constant over time.
This made the power plant design a lot simpler since it didn't have to
change power outputs very quickly.

The non-carbon based power plants are all harder to vary the power out
of so I can see this idea coming back. Things like solar, wind, and
hydro-electric generally cost a lot to build but the last watt is
basically free. For them it makes a lot of sense to have a load that
the power company can control.

Our power producer (Hydro One) is pushing a scheme where you install a
(free) web-enabled thermostat so they can reduce peak demand by
cranking down your A/C at peak periods.

That sounds like not too bad of an idea so long as the peak demand
doesn't last too long. The down side is that a lot of people arrive
home just about the time of the peak so they may set their timed
thermostats to cool the house earlier. The peak demand will be
lowered at the cost of more average demand.

 

[MooseFET]

You can expect to see the rise slow down soon. The long term trend
will continue to be towards higher oil prices. There is a natural cap
somewhere around $200 per barrel. Oil sands and tar sands are
profitable up there. There is a huge amount of oil trapped in sands.

Oil sands should be popular at the current emotionally publicized
price of $130 (depending on the strength of the Canadian dollar, which
would likely get better if the oil sands extraction rate increases).

It is matter of how much above the production cost the price goes.
The cost to develop the physical plant has to be paid off. The
quicker the pay off looks the more money that people are willing to
invest.