Planned Obselescence....A Good Thing?

[SMS]

I consider about 75-80% of in-town driving (and in-region in our area)
to be "severe service".

You may consider it severe, but the manufacturer doesn't. There is no
evidence that doing twice as many oil changes as the manufacturer
recommends has any effect on engine life. It doesn't really hurt
anything to change the oil at 3000 miles, or 1000 miles for that matter,
but all the independent tests of engine wear versus oil change interval
have proved that there is no advantage to following the severe service
interval for non-severe service.

 

[Tim Shoppa]

The Neputune washer is a typical case of how companies plan for
enforced obscelence.

Make the repair cost so high that you are forced to buy another
appliance.

Their mistake is that many of the problems surfaced during the warranty
period.

Their other mistake was to outsource much of the design to consultants
who took their money and ran leaving the company with a poor design
that was rushed to production.

The CEO and MBAs still got their bonuses as the company sank.

IMHO... the problem with the Neptune (and similarly high-priced
"unique" product lines from other companies) is that as far as I could
tell there was nothing standard about ANY part of it.

I mean, if a knob falls off my stove, I know I can go to the appliance
part store and get a new knob that'll fit (might not be right color
but...). Or if a element fails in the oven. etc.

With the Neptune it seemed to be a design goal to make every part
completely non-generic. And then charge a lot for the whole thing as if
it were some really premium "high-end" appliance. They set the bar
really really high and then guaranteed they'd never live up to it!

Tim.

 

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote


You have no way of quantifying what would have happened
if they hadnt got 'severe service' oil change rates.


Bullshit.

Actually, I do. I serviced over 600 vehicles anually on a regular
basis. ONLY the ones that did not follow the recommended "severe"
schedule had any problems - period. There were NO other common
conditions that were not met. A large enough sample, over 10 years, to
be significant and more or less reliable.
I also serviced hundreds more per year on a not so regular basis.
In TEN years I NEVER had a vehicle maintained to my recommendations
suffer a lubrication related engine failure.Not even a camshaft or a
timing chain, and some of these vehicles went over 300,000km.

 

[clare at snyder.on.ca]

You may consider it severe, but the manufacturer doesn't. There is no
evidence that doing twice as many oil changes as the manufacturer
recommends has any effect on engine life. It doesn't really hurt
anything to change the oil at 3000 miles, or 1000 miles for that matter,
but all the independent tests of engine wear versus oil change interval
have proved that there is no advantage to following the severe service
interval for non-severe service.

I'll agree under "normal" service - but under extreme service it DOES
make a difference - and I know extreme service.

Also, the legendary "coking" problem on Toyotas and Chryslers is NOT
an issue if the oil is changed on the severe service schedule. Nor is
using 10W40 oil.
I will continue to follow and recommend the severe service schedule
for any vehicle that does not go 5000 km in 3 months, as well as any
that get high speed/heavy load use or drive the dirt roads of rural
Waterloo County.
I will also use 10W40 oil in these vehicles where 10W30 is
recommended, and in the summer wher 5W20 is recommended.
It will cost about half a mile per gallon in fuel economy, at worst.
It will NOT hurt the engine.

 

[Rod Speed]

clare at snyder.on.ca wrote

Actually, I do.

Actually, you dont.

I serviced over 600 vehicles anually on a regular basis.

And when so few of those would have had problems that
could ever be attributed to the failure of the engine oil, the
technical term for that is 'pathetically inadequate sample'

ONLY the ones that did not follow the recommended
"severe" schedule had any problems - period.

You aint established that that was anything other than a coincidence.

There were NO other common conditions that were not met. A large
enough sample, over 10 years, to be significant and more or less reliable.

Pigs arse it is.

I also serviced hundreds more per year on a not so regular basis.
In TEN years I NEVER had a vehicle maintained to my recommendations
suffer a lubrication related engine failure.Not even a camshaft or a
timing chain, and some of these vehicles went over 300,000km.

Pity that hordes get the same result with the non severe service oil change rate too.

The car manufacturers wouldnt be stipulating the lower change
rate if it wasnt viable, there is no incentive for them to do that.

 

[Rod Speed]

I'll agree under "normal" service - but under extreme service it DOES
make a difference - and I know extreme service.

Also, the legendary "coking" problem on Toyotas and Chryslers is NOT
an issue if the oil is changed on the severe service schedule. Nor is
using 10W40 oil.
I will continue to follow and recommend the severe service schedule
for any vehicle that does not go 5000 km in 3 months, as well as any
that get high speed/heavy load use or drive the dirt roads of rural
Waterloo County.
I will also use 10W40 oil in these vehicles where 10W30 is
recommended, and in the summer wher 5W20 is recommended.
It will cost about half a mile per gallon in fuel economy, at worst.
It will NOT hurt the engine.

Yeah, yeah, you know it all, the manufacturers know nothing.

Yeah, right.

 

[Alan [email protected]]

You may consider it severe, but the manufacturer doesn't. There is no
evidence that doing twice as many oil changes as the manufacturer
recommends has any effect on engine life. It doesn't really hurt
anything to change the oil at 3000 miles, or 1000 miles for that matter,
but all the independent tests of engine wear versus oil change interval
have proved that there is no advantage to following the severe service
interval for non-severe service.

Then this is a recent change.

"normal" stop and go driving, short trips, etc. are
considered to be severe service by every manufacturer of
every car I've bought. And the recommendation for that is
the shorter oil-change interval.

Alan

==

It's not that I think stupidity should be punishable by death.
I just think we should take the warning labels off of everything
and let the problem take care of itself.

--------------------------------------------------------

 

[Vic Smith]

Also, the legendary "coking" problem on Toyotas and Chryslers is NOT
an issue if the oil is changed on the severe service schedule. Nor is
using 10W40 oil.

Not many people are aware of the Toyota problem, which I believe
was due to insufficient oil passage size to properly drain oil down
from the heads.
In that case it is obvious that more frequent oil changes would reduce
clogging of passages due to oil residue deposits, but that's no
argument for more frequent changes in general. Especially since the
coking problem was most likely caused by owners not even doing timely
"normal" frequency oil changes.
IMO, frequent oil changes are just cheap insurance against premature
wear. I'm tending more toward Steve's position lately as it becomes
evident that metallurgy and oil formulation improvements
lessen the need for frequent oil changes.
But I'm not there yet, and still use 3k miles as my measure.

--Vic

 

[SMS]

Then this is a recent change.

It isn't recent.

"normal" stop and go driving, short trips, etc. are
considered to be severe service by every manufacturer of
every car I've bought. And the recommendation for that is
the shorter oil-change interval.

No, it's the oil change industry, such as companies like Jiffy-Lube,
trying to convince people that nearly all driving qualifies at severe
service. The vehicle manufacturers make it pretty clear what constitutes
severe service, and it isn't stop and go driving by itself. It's solely
short trips, because the moisture in the oil never gets vaporized.

The 3000 mile myth has been passed on from generation to generation,
even as oils have progressed from single-weight non-detergent oils, to
multi-weight detergent oils.

Since more frequent oil changes don't have any negative effect, the
whole "cheap insurance" rationalization took hold. Of course if you
carry that to it's logical end, why not change the oil every 1000 miles,
or every 500 miles. There is as much evidence that 500 mile oil changes
are beneficial to engine life as there is that 3000 mile oil changes are
beneficial to engine life.

Read:

"http://www.cartalk.com/content/advice/oilchanges.html"
"http://www.xs11.com/stories/croil96.htm"
"http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story...yth&story=ydMyths&referer=advice&aff=national"
"http://nordicgroup.us/oil.htm"

"Changing the oil every 3,000 miles is a very American thing to do. In
Europe, people would look at you and think you're crazy. It's a good
example of how the oil industry (well, at least certain parts thereof)
have kept the consumer uninformed/uneducated in regards to the true
quality and performance of their product."

 

[Alan [email protected]]

It isn't recent.


No, it's the oil change industry, such as companies like Jiffy-Lube,
trying to convince people that nearly all driving qualifies at severe
service. The vehicle manufacturers make it pretty clear what constitutes
severe service, and it isn't stop and go driving by itself. It's solely
short trips, because the moisture in the oil never gets vaporized.

The 3000 mile myth has been passed on from generation to generation,
even as oils have progressed from single-weight non-detergent oils, to
multi-weight detergent oils.

Maybe in your infinite understanding of such things it's a
myth. However it is printed in black and white in every new
car manual I've gotten in the last 20 years with I bought a
new car.

I grant you that there are lots of companies that will make
more money if an owner chooses the shorter intervals, but I
doubt if the automobile manufacturer would keep putting it
in their new car manuals if there wasn't some truth to it!


Alan

==

It's not that I think stupidity should be punishable by death.
I just think we should take the warning labels off of everything
and let the problem take care of itself.

--------------------------------------------------------

 

[The Real Bev]

Hey, I still have an IBM Model "M" 101 "clicky" from the original PS/2
line. Has some weight to it and won't slide around while typing (which
the main thing I hate about those modern "cheapies").

Me too. Every once in a while we find one at a yard sale, so we probably
have a lifetime supply. They feel and sound good. What could be better?

Also, a Microsoft
optical mouse which is about 8 or 9 years old and still going strong.

I had a [yard sale, not new] M$ mouse that stopped working, and have used
nothing but the cheap Inland optical mice from Fry's for several years. The
one I used most started responding erratically to wheel-turning, so I
replaced it with a cheap A4Tech equivalent, also from Fry's. So far, so good.

And speaking of Fry's: They sent me a check themselves when the company
weaseled out of the properly-completed rebate. They claimed that the
'Rebate Receipt' was improper and that I should have sent the regular
receipt. Fry's handled it properly. Screw K-World.

--
Cheers,
Bev
*********************************************
Not all cultures are equal. If they were, we
would have a lot more cannibal restaurants.

 

[Andrew VK3BFA]

You may consider it severe, but the manufacturer doesn't. There is no
evidence that doing twice as many oil changes as the manufacturer
recommends has any effect on engine life. It doesn't really hurt
anything to change the oil at 3000 miles, or 1000 miles for that matter,
but all the independent tests of engine wear versus oil change interval
have proved that there is no advantage to following the severe service
interval for non-severe service.

Hang on. Theres another factor here - total cost of ownership. Given
that a large proportion of "ordinary" vehicle sales are to fleets, then
its a powerful argument for Brand A over Brand B if the Brand A
service interval is 7,000miles instead of 5,000. Given that most cars
are changed over every 2-3 years (or before the warranty expires) then
it wont matter to the original owner if you change the oil AT ALL or
not - even with 50,000 miles on it.

BUT if you keep your vehicles long term, then more regular oil changes
are indeed a good idea.

Crikey - how much is 4 litres of oil and a filter anyway?.......

And for Rod to have a say - I maintain the sun will rise tomorrow - you
disagree, in your experience, of course....

Andrew VK3BFA.

 

[Homer J Simpson]

And speaking of Fry's: They sent me a check themselves when the company
weaseled out of the properly-completed rebate. They claimed that the
'Rebate Receipt' was improper and that I should have sent the regular
receipt. Fry's handled it properly. Screw K-World.

Shades of OfficeMax!

 

[Homer J Simpson]

BUT if you keep your vehicles long term, then more regular oil changes
are indeed a good idea.

Crikey - how much is 4 litres of oil and a filter anyway?.......

We might all be better off if most of us drove Fiat 500s!

 

[Rod Speed]

SMS wrote

Hang on. Theres another factor here - total cost of ownership.
Given that a large proportion of "ordinary" vehicle sales are to fleets,
Wrong.

then its a powerful argument for Brand A over Brand B if
the Brand A service interval is 7,000miles instead of 5,000.

Wrong, and you say why its wrong in the next sentence.

Given that most cars are changed over every 2-3 years
(or before the warranty expires) then it wont matter to
the original owner if you change the oil AT ALL or
not - even with 50,000 miles on it.

Great footshot.

BUT if you keep your vehicles long term, then
more regular oil changes are indeed a good idea.

Yes, but you havent established that the
lower rate will see any long term problem.

Crikey - how much is 4 litres of oil and a filter anyway?.......

Quite a bit if you double the frequency and pay someone to do it.

And for Rod to have a say - I maintain the sun will rise
tomorrow - you disagree, in your experience, of course....

You'll end up completely blind if you dont watch out, bludger.

 

[Mark Rand]

Maybe in your infinite understanding of such things it's a
myth. However it is printed in black and white in every new
car manual I've gotten in the last 20 years with I bought a
new car.

I grant you that there are lots of companies that will make
more money if an owner chooses the shorter intervals, but I
doubt if the automobile manufacturer would keep putting it
in their new car manuals if there wasn't some truth to it!


Alan

Manufacturer's recommended oil change interval for the Peugeot 407 is 20,000
miles.


Mark Rand
RTFM

 

[Edwin Pawlowski]

Maybe in your infinite understanding of such things it's a
myth. However it is printed in black and white in every new
car manual I've gotten in the last 20 years with I bought a
new car.

Most new cars recommend 3000 miles under severe conditions. For normal
use, 7500 is typical today as stated in my GM and Hyundai manuals. I've
been doing that in my cars for years. Works well for my driving conditions.
The oil change places give you that little sticker for 3000 miles under any
condition because they want to sell oil changes.

The manual also states that you should use genuine GM washer fluid too. Do
you?

 

[Andrew VK3BFA]

Sadly, I do despair at the lack of basic intellectual ability and
elementary social skills of some of my own countrymen - fortunately,
Rod is a special case and beyond being irritating is of no real
consequence in any society. Its like wrestling with a bagful of snakes
- interesting at first as a challenge, but eventually tiring.

Rod has achieved notoriety - his "insults" have been immortalized in
its own website at

http://www.sensationbot.com/chat-rodspeed.html

where you can type in a phrase and get a "Roddism" in return. Saves
time replying to his ravings.

Rod, some stats. According to your profile, you have

posted to 150 groups
total of 13666 messages
in the period Feb 2006 Jan 2007 - and this is just for Google groups!.
- an average of 37 per day, and thats assuming there is no down
time.....You spend too much time in front of your PC - DO try and get
out a bit more....

Perusal of these groups reveals you are an expert (or at least have a
strong "opinion" ) in every subject you choose to pursue. And you
manage to annoy an enormous number of people. Most of your posts are
late at night, or early morning. Do you have a job? - I did ask this
before, but as usual you never answer a direct question, or provide
any references to back up your "assertions."

Argument/Debate is more than saying "Your wrong", "no it isnt" , and
being abusive, - it is expected that you provide some referenced
confirmation of your claims.

I am thankful that, due to your obvious lack of social skills, you will
not get the chance to breed and thus pollute the gene pool any further.
At your end, its already too shallow to have long term viability.

Andrew VK3BFA.

 

[Rod Speed]

Andrew VK3BFA <[email protected]> desperately
attempted to bullshit its way out of its predicament and
fooled absolutely no one at all, as always.

No surprise that it got the bums rush, right out the door.

Even Telstra had noticed what a completely unemployable dud it was.

 

[Andrew VK3BFA]

Andrew VK3BFA <[email protected]> desperately
attempted to bullshit its way out of its predicament and
fooled absolutely no one at all, as always.

Which function key is programmed with that snappy come back - you use
it a lot. Its lost any pretension to wit through overuse.
(references supplied on request)

No surprise that it got the bums rush, right out the door.

Even Telstra had noticed what a completely unemployable dud it was.

Well, it took them 20 years, (got a nice medal for it too - wanna see
it?) I got to management level - took a package, paid the mortgage
off, paid for 2 years full time at school, paid for a trip to
Europe..., set up my own business. I do miss the insane disputes over
parking spaces though - but not very much...

BTW - Its Telecom, Rod. Is your long term memory shot? - you ARE taking
your medication regularly I hope?- the psychiatric response team is
getting annoyed over the number of call outs they have to make to
you...(another prime example of the failure of de-institutionalization)
Your absences from the boards are about 3-4 times a year for about a
week - time it takes to stabilize your medication as an inpatient and
let you back on the street......

Oh - you didnt answer - do you have a job? Did you have a job? Will you
ever get a job? How do you cope with the Centrelink (Social Security
for our American cousins) review forms - have you got a case worker to
help you fill them in?

Andrew VK3BFA.