Planned Obselescence....A Good Thing?

[Rod Speed]

I think another big factor is the ratio of cost on parts versus
labor. In the "old days" you might have a repair that was 70% parts
and 30% labor cost-wise. Nowdays those percentages would be reversed
and that just irks people who just don't see the value of anyone's
labor (other than their own of course).
You see posts about this all the time. "Called a guy to come out and
do foo and couldn't believe what he wanted to charge me!" Labor
really induces a lot of sticker shock these days.

Yep, and thats inevitable when first world wages are involved with
repair and the alternative is some microwage monkey in an asian
factory minimally involved in stamping out a new one hours wise.

Even just the travel time for the repair is vastly more
than any asian ever puts into making you a new one.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

This raises an apparent contradiction.

Perhaps you've not been adequately involved with your appliances to
see that there is not a contradiction, even "apparently".

The old ones were, for the most part, designed to be repairable. "This
part always breaks eventually, we'll isolate it and make it easy to
replace".

The new ones are, for the most part, designed NOT to be repairable,
and/or parts prices/availability are manipulated to render them
effectively non-economic to repair. [snip]

What you say speaks to the issue of why did we repair in the past and why don't
we repair now, but it says nothing about the comparable reliability. If
appliances in the past were "built to be repaired" that can be interpretted to
mean that failures were expected. If failures were expected and people could
make a living performing those repairs then that suggests that the appliances
were not that reliable.

Yes, my mother used her first clothes dryer for over 30 years. We
replaced the belt three times. A new dryer might last five years,
total. The washer lasted 18 years before the hard water ruined it, and
it had a timer replaced when it was 12 years Old. You think that the
new designs are an improvement?


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[[email protected]]

New vacs are garbage.
I could go on and on....

yes they are garbage. Every time I glue a part back onto my vacuum I feel like
I have won a little victory against planned obsolescence.

 

[Rod Speed]

Rick Brandt ([email protected]) wrote

But what you had was a relative handful of items, that
people took great care in deciding about before purchasing,

Most didnt.

and cost quite a bit,

Readily affordable.

and of course when they needed repair the parts were generally generic,

You clearly aint ever been involved in the repair industry.

because the items were generic.

No they werent.

No, the whole household is loaded with things. INstead of
buying a few things that you expected to last pretty much
forever, and you'd want to get the most out of, you buy
something cheap because it might be nice to have that
sandwich maker or that $15 rotary tool. The things have
become cheap in part because demand has lowered costs
(design costs and profit can be spread over far more units),

Nope, because they are churned out in low labor cost countrys.

but also by cutting out the expensive stuff.

Nope, in fact they have more expensive stuff than they used to, most
obviously with digital timers and clocks etc that are almost universal now.

So a tv set forty years ago was handwired

No it wasnt, that had stopped well before that.

(I have no clue whether that was a good or bad thing,

The use of tubes was the bad thing with those designs.

but it was costly) on a heavy metal chassis, and was a significant
purchase for most households. But when something broke, the
cost of repair was low compare to the cost of replacement, to
that tv set would be taken to the local repair shop.
Yes.

But, pretty much all the parts in that tv set were generic, so
that repair shop did not have to be in some relationship with the
manufacturer, and the parts could be had at the local electronics
store (and since those stores were selling to all kinds of people,
the same general parts to repair that tv set were also used by they
hobbyist and even the professional, the stores could survive with a
relatively small stock that was bought by many), so the repair shop often
didn't need to keep a lot of stock, especially not a lot of specialized stock.

But in order to increase the market, manufacturers had
to lower prices so those who couldn't afford before
could now. So they shifted to printed circuit boards,

That had happened well before that.

And the shift wasnt due to cost, it was due to the move to semiconductors.

and when ICs came along they started using them,
which allowed for higher integration (ie fewer overall parts).
The smaller parts meant no heavy chassis, which would have
gone anyway because that cost money, not just to buy the
metal but you had to ship it to the store near the consumer.

The shipping cost was a tiny part of the total retail price.

The price goes down. But the cost of repair stays the same,
or goes up, because tracking down the problem is labor intensive.

Wrong. The repair cost dropped dramatically because the fault rate
dropped dramatically with the change to semiconductors. ICs in spades.

Manufacturers often switch to replacing boards,
which keeps labor costs down but means you aren't
paying for a fifty cent part but the whole board.

You can always change the fifty cent part on the board.

The real reason for the change is because it was much
cheaper to stamp out a new board than to diagnose a
fault using expensive first world skilled labor.

Much cheaper to pay a much cheaper board stuffing monkey
even when that was still not automated and done in the first world.

So if you paid a thousand dollars for that color tv set in
1966 (just a figure I pulled out of the air), the repair cost
was a small percentage of the cost of buying a new one.

In fact by then they didnt need much repair.

Plus, it was easier to pay out a little here and a little there
than to come up with another thousand to buy a new tv set.

But if you paid a hundred dollars for that tv set
today, you'd be paying a good percentage of that
cost in having a repairman try to find the problem.

Yep, because it costs a lot less to pay a low wage asian
to make you a new one than to pay a skilled first world
tech to find what would mostly be a hard to find fault with
an adequately designed modern TV which hardly ever fails.

That tips things in favor of buying new. Plus, in order
to get that tv set price so low, the parts aren't generic,

The bulk of them still are.

and the repairman has to deal with the
manufacturer to get the replacement parts.

Hardly ever.

That ends up being problematic, or requires some
sort of contract with the manufactuer (and added cost).
Nope.

The tv sets are no longer as generic as they were forty years ago,

They also fail at a vastly lower rate too.

so the repairman finds it harder to figure out what is wrong,

Because a properly design modern TV doesnt fail due to routine faults anymore.

often requiring service material from the manufacturer,

That was always the case.

again an extra cost.

The cheaper something is to manufacture, the less sturdy
it will be mechanically, since that is one way to cut cost.

Wrong again, most obviously with modern
plug packs and molded power cords.

In spades with modern switch mode plug packs.

Hence things are less likely to last as long, even if people were
willing to spend the money to repair them rather than buy new.

Thats just plain wrong, most obviously with TVs.

And I want to add something about "planned obsolescence" because
it is often misused. If people are choosing to buy cheap, it's hardly
that the manufacturers are making things so they will break. The
consumer often wants that cheaper tv set or VCR.

Sure, but thats not planned obsolescence which isnt even possible.

And there is the issue of just plain obsolescence. Forty years
ago, there'd hardly be any electronic items around the house.

Thats overstating it.

A tv set or two, some radios, maybe a stereo.

Hardly maybe on the stereo.

But look around now, and everything is electronic.

Not quite everything. And when the electronic stuff is much
more reliable than the mechanical stuff ever was, there
clearly aint any planned obsolescence involved.

While there is certainly some stuff that is guaranteed to fail first,
most obviously with rechargable batterys, those are used for the
convenience of those, not for any 'planned obsolescence' reason.

It's either been invented in the past forty years (not even that long in many
cases), or at the very least could not have been a consumer item until recently.
Once you have consumers buying the latest thing, things are bound to go obsolete.
Buy early, and things still have to develop, which means the things really may
become obsolete in a few years. It's not the manufacturer doing this to "screw
the consumer", it's a combination of new developments and consumer demand.

If my computer from 1979 had been intended to last forever,
it would have been way out of range in terms of price.

In practice most of them still work fine.

Because they'd have to anticipate how much things would
change, and build in enough so upgrading would be doable.

Upgrade was doable, just not sensible.

So you'd spend money on potential, rather than
spending money later on a new computer that
would beat out what they could imagine in 1979.

And they did that anyway, most obviously with socketed
cpus that hardly ever got changed. They're still doing that.

And in recent years, it is the consumer who is deciding to buy a new
computer every few years (whether a deliberate decision or they
simply let the manufacturer lead, must vary from person to person.)

And they're so cheap that is a perfectly sensible thing to do. In spades with laptops.

 

[Rod Speed]

In my opinon...no.

I dont believe it happens in the sense that its actually possible
to design something to fail early and still have a viable product.

And there is plenty of stuff that clearly aint anything to do
with planned obsolescence at all. Most obviously with stuff
as basic as bread knives which are all metal. Those wont
even need to be replaced when the handle gives out.

And heaps of kitchen stuff is now stainless steel, which
will last forever compared with the older tinplate crap.

I intentionally try to have older appliances, vehicles, machines to
lower repair costs and keep overall ownership cost to a minimum.

Your thoughts?

Works fine with some things, but can bite. I just replaced
the switch in the vaccuum cleaner which is about 40 years
old. Cost peanuts and was very easy to find a new one.

The big 9¼" hand held circular saw that I built the house with
35 years ago has just seen the power switch fail and that is
no longer available from the manufacturer. Fortunately its
failed on so the saw is still usable tho more dangerous.
It uses blades with a 1?" hole. The current blades have
1" holes with washers which allow smaller shafts but no
easy way to use them on my old saw. There doesnt appear
to be any readily available source of different collets for that.

Just had the chain adjuster failed on a dirt cheap relatively
new electric chainsaw. I assumed that they wouldnt bother
to supply parts like that, but I was wrong, readily available
and in fact free. Clearly no planned obsolescence there.

And power tools are now so cheap that they are very viable
to buy even for just one job. I had to cut a copper pipe thats
buried in the ground and it costs peanuts to buy a very decent
jigsaw to cut it, just to avoid having to dig a bigger hole around
where I needed to cut it. Its been fine for other stuff since,
no evidence that its going to die any time soon. Could well get
40 years out of that too like I did with most of the power tools
that I used to build the house.

Cars in spades. I've just replaced my 35 year old car that I was
too stupid to fix the windscreen leak with which eventually produced
rust holes in the floor which wont pass our registration check.
While its possible to plate the holes, I cant be bothered, I intended
to drive that car into the ground and decided that that had happened.
No evidence that the replacement new car wont last as long. Its
certainly got more plastic, most obviously with the bumper bars that
the new one doesnt have, but that mostly due to modern crumple
zones, not due to planned obsolescence and might save my life etc.

People were raving on about planned obsolescence when
I built the house and I've had very little that has ever needed
replacement apart from basic stuff like light bulbs and the
occassional failure of stuff like elements in the oven etc.

More below.

Irreparable damage
By Bryce Baschuk
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
January 9, 2007

Bill Jones, after 42 years, is finally closing the
Procter Appliance Service shop in Silver Spring.

That isnt planned obsolescence, thats the fact that its a
lot cheaper to pay a very low wage asian to make you
a new one than it ever is to pay a first world monkey to
repair your existing one with all but quite trivial faults.

"You can't make a good salary to survive on the way you
could years ago," said the 61-year-old owner of the oven,
refrigerator and washer-dryer repair shop. "Everything
has changed in the appliance business."

It has indeed, but not because of planned obsolescence.

Mr. Jones recently sold his home in Laurel and is in the
process of moving to Bluffton, S.C., with his wife, Jeannette.

Sob sob.

Mr. Jones is one of the many Washington-area repairmen who have
struggled to stay afloat as residents replace, not repair, old
appliances.

Because its generally better value to replace.

"It's a dying trade," said Scott Brown, Webmaster of
www.fixitnow.com
and self-proclaimed "Samurai Appliance Repairman."

Wota fucking wanker. Bet he doesnt disembowel himself when he fucks
up.

The reason for this is twofold, Mr. Brown said: The cost
of appliances is coming down because of cheap overseas
labor and improved manufacturing techniques,

So much for your silly line about planned obsolescence.

and repairmen are literally dying off.

They arent in other industrys that are still viable,
most obviously with cars and trucks and houses.

The average age of appliance technicians is 42, and there are few
young repairmen to take their place, said Mr. Brown, 47. He has
been repairing appliances in New Hampshire for the past 13 years.

He should have had a clue 13 years ago.
The writing was on the wall long before that.

In the next seven years, the number of veteran appliance
repairmen will decrease nationwide as current workers retire
or transfer to other occupations, the Department of Labor
said in its 2007 Occupational Outlook Handbook.

Must be rocket scientist shinybums.

The federal agency said many prospective repairmen prefer work
that is less strenuous and want more comfortable working conditions.

They actually prefer a decent income.

That claimed 'prefer work that is less strenuous and want more
comfortable working conditions' clearly hasnt affect car, truck or
house repair and the construction industry etc. Tho there will
always be some of that with a 5% unemployment rate.

Local repairmen said it is simply a question of economics.
"Nowadays appliances are cheap, so people are just getting new
ones,"

Yep, only a fool wouldnt if the new one costs about
the same as the cost of repairing the old one.

said Paul Singh, a manager at the Appliance Service Depot, a repair
shop in Northwest. "As a result, business has slowed down a lot."

"The average repair cost for a household appliance is $50 to
$350," said Shahid Rana, a service technician at Rana
Refrigeration, a repair shop in Capitol Heights. "If the repair is
going to cost more than
that, we usually tell the customer to go out and buy a new one."

Must be rocket scientist apes.

It's not uncommon for today's repairmen to condemn an appliance
instead of fixing it for the sake of their customers' wallets.

If they decide to repair an appliance that is likely to break
down again, repairmen are criticized by their customers
and often lose business because of a damaged reputation.

Mr. Jones said he based his repair decisions on the 50 percent
rule: "If the cost of service costs more than 50 percent of the
price
of a new machine, I'll tell my customers to get a new one."

What makes a lot more sense is to factor in the failure rate of that
appliance.

"A lot of customers want me to be honest with them, so I'll tell
them
my opinion and leave the decision making up to them," he said.

In recent years, consumers have tended to buy new
appliances when existing warranties expire rather than
repair old appliances, the Department of Labor said.

Hardly surprising given that they are now so cheap.

Mr. Brown acknowledged this trend. "Lower-end appliances which you
can buy for $200 to $300 are basically throwaway appliances," he
said. "They are so inexpensive that you shouldn't pay to get them
repaired." "The quality of the materials that are being made
aren't lasting,"

Pig ignorant silly stuff.

Mr. Jones said. "Nowadays you're seeing more plastic

I had some reservations about my 35 year old
dishwasher that does have a plastic liner. Its lasted fine.

and more circuit boards, and they aren't holding up."
Bullshit.

Many home appliances sold in the United States
are made in Taiwan, Singapore, China and Mexico.

And now china.

"Nothing is made [in the United States] anymore," Mr. Jones said.
"But then again, American parts are only better to a point,
a lot of U.S. companies are all about the dollar."

Fortunately for the next generation of repairmen, some of today's
high-end appliances make service repairs the most cost-effective
option.

The Department of Labor concurred. "Over the next decade, as more
consumers purchase higher-priced appliances designed to have much
longer lives, they will be more likely to use repair services than
to purchase new appliances," said the 2007 Occupational Outlook
Handbook.

Bet that will have **** all effect on the employment prospects.

Modern, energy-efficient refrigerators
can cost as much as $5,000 to $10,000,

Pig ignorant drivel. You can buy plenty of modern energy efficient
fridges for a hell of a lot less than that. I've done just that a
month ago.

and with such a hefty price tag, throwing one away is not an option.

Bet the fools stupid enough to buy those will anyway.

In some cases, repairmen can help consumers reduce the
amount of aggravation that a broken appliance will cause.

Consider the time and effort it takes to shop for a new appliance,
wait for its delivery, remove the old one and get the new one
installed.

I did mine in 30 mins total, literally.

In addition, certain appliances such as ovens and
washing machines can be a bigger hassle to replace
because they are connected to gas and water lines.

Just changed washing machines over too, with a free
one I inherited. Changing the water over took minutes too.

"It takes your time, it takes your effort, and if you don't
install the new appliance, you'll have to hire a service
technician to install it anyways," Mr. Brown said.

Only the incompetant fools that cant change the washing machine over.

Some consumers bond with their appliances like old pets,
and for loyalty or sentimental reasons, refuse to let them go.

Mr. Rana said some of his clients have appliances that are
more than 30 years old. It makes sense, he said. "A lot of old
refrigerators are worth fixing because they give people good
service.

Wrong, those are normally lousy energy efficiency.

They just don't make things like they used to."

Yeah, they make them much better today energy efficiency wise.

And much better design wise too with the shelves and bins etc too.

did you know theres all qualitys of stainless, some will last literaLLY FOREVER

Yep, and all of my kitchen stainless will do that fine.

not so for kitchen stainless,
Wrong.

try a magnet on stainless the better quality is non magnetic

The magnetic stuff will last fine too with that use.

 

[Rod Speed]

Unfortunately, you have to plan for Planned Obsolescence several years
behind.
For instance: my Kenmore washer/dryer set is 16 years old. Still going
strong. No repairs. Lots of posts in S.E.R (and here) on current W/D
models puking after 2 or so years.
My JC Penney (Eureka) canister vac is 22 years old. Only thing
replaced was power head belt a couple years ago. New vacs are garbage.
I could go on and on....

Lousy design is nothing like planned obsolescence.

Most obviously with the modern approach of beltless direct drive
systems which dont even have a belt that will ever need replacing.

In my opinon...no.

I intentionally try to have older appliances, vehicles, machines to
lower repair costs and keep overall ownership cost to a minimum.

Your thoughts?

TMT

Irreparable damageBy Bryce Baschuk
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
January 9, 2007
Bill Jones, after 42 years, is finally closing the Procter Appliance
Service shop in Silver Spring.
"You can't make a good salary to survive on the way you could
years ago," said the 61-year-old owner of the oven, refrigerator and
washer-dryer repair shop. "Everything has changed in the appliance
business."
Mr. Jones recently sold his home in Laurel and is in the process
of moving to Bluffton, S.C., with his wife, Jeannette.
Mr. Jones is one of the many Washington-area repairmen who have
struggled to stay afloat as residents replace, not repair, old
appliances.
"It's a dying trade," said Scott Brown, Webmaster of
www.fixitnow.com and self-proclaimed "Samurai Appliance Repairman."
The reason for this is twofold, Mr. Brown said: The cost of
appliances is coming down because of cheap overseas labor and
improved manufacturing techniques, and repairmen are literally dying
off. The average age of appliance technicians is 42, and there
are few young repairmen to take their place, said Mr. Brown, 47. He
has been repairing appliances in New Hampshire for the past 13 years.
In the next seven years, the number of veteran appliance
repairmen will decrease nationwide as current workers retire or
transfer to other occupations, the Department of Labor said in its
2007 Occupational Outlook Handbook.
The federal agency said many prospective repairmen prefer work
that is less strenuous and want more comfortable working conditions.
Local repairmen said it is simply a question of economics.
"Nowadays appliances are cheap, so people are just getting new
ones," said Paul Singh, a manager at the Appliance Service Depot, a
repair shop in Northwest. "As a result, business has slowed down a
lot."
"The average repair cost for a household appliance is $50 to
$350," said Shahid Rana, a service technician at Rana Refrigeration,
a repair shop in Capitol Heights. "If the repair is going to cost
more than that, we usually tell the customer to go out and buy a new
one." It's not uncommon for today's repairmen to condemn an
appliance instead of fixing it for the sake of their customers'
wallets. If they decide to repair an appliance that is likely to
break down again, repairmen are criticized by their customers and
often lose business because of a damaged reputation.
Mr. Jones said he based his repair decisions on the 50 percent
rule: "If the cost of service costs more than 50 percent of the price
of a new machine, I'll tell my customers to get a new one."
"A lot of customers want me to be honest with them, so I'll tell
them my opinion and leave the decision making up to them," he said.
In recent years, consumers have tended to buy new appliances when
existing warranties expire rather than repair old appliances, the
Department of Labor said.
Mr. Brown acknowledged this trend. "Lower-end appliances which
you can buy for $200 to $300 are basically throwaway appliances," he
said. "They are so inexpensive that you shouldn't pay to get them
repaired." "The quality of the materials that are being made
aren't lasting," Mr. Jones said. "Nowadays you're seeing more plastic and more circuit
boards, and they aren't holding up."
Many home appliances sold in the United States are made in
Taiwan, Singapore, China and Mexico.
"Nothing is made [in the United States] anymore," Mr. Jones said.
"But then again, American parts are only better to a point, a lot of
U.S. companies are all about the dollar."
Fortunately for the next generation of repairmen, some of today's
high-end appliances make service repairs the most cost-effective
option.
The Department of Labor concurred. "Over the next decade, as more
consumers purchase higher-priced appliances designed to have much
longer lives, they will be more likely to use repair services than to
purchase new appliances," said the 2007 Occupational Outlook
Handbook. Modern, energy-efficient refrigerators can cost as
much as $5,000 to $10,000, and with such a hefty price tag, throwing one away is not
an option.
In some cases, repairmen can help consumers reduce the amount of
aggravation that a broken appliance will cause.
Consider the time and effort it takes to shop for a new
appliance, wait for its delivery, remove the old one and get the new
one installed.
In addition, certain appliances such as ovens and washing
machines can be a bigger hassle to replace because they are
connected to gas and water lines.
"It takes your time, it takes your effort, and if you don't
install the new appliance, you'll have to hire a service technician
to install it anyways," Mr. Brown said.
Some consumers bond with their appliances like old pets, and for
loyalty or sentimental reasons, refuse to let them go.
Mr. Rana said some of his clients have appliances that are more
than 30 years old. It makes sense, he said. "A lot of old
refrigerators are worth fixing because they give people good
service. They just don't make things like they used to."

 

[Rick Brandt]

Yes, my mother used her first clothes dryer for over 30 years. We
replaced the belt three times. A new dryer might last five years,
total.

On what do you base this statement? To claim that (on average) a new dryer will
only last five years is absurd. What, you once knew "a guy" who replaced a five
year old dryer? The dryer has to be one of the simplest and most reliable
things in the home. There just isn't that much to go wrong.

The washer lasted 18 years before the hard water ruined it,
and it had a timer replaced when it was 12 years Old. You think that
the new designs are an improvement?

How can anyone make a claim either way based on personal experience? He would
have to have personal experience on *multiple* old appliances that lasted a long
time (a mathematical impossibilty) and *multiple* newer ones that did not.
Anything else boils down to "I once knew a guy... or Joe down at the appliance
store once told me...".

It is an absolute certainty that all of appliances that lasted a long time were
manufactured a long time ago. That does not equate to "All of the appliances
made a long time ago lasted a long time". Nobody knows how long the appliance
they bought last month is going to last so how can a valid comparison be made?

 

[Rod Speed]

In my opinon, it is a symptom of a larger problem....
Nope.

Companies are setting up the situation that you are forced to
buy new versus repair the used applicance, car, electronics,
computers, cell phones....because they make a larger profit.

Mindless conspiracy theory.

The MBAs that are crafting the company policy are behind this.

Mindless conspiracy theory.

And the consumer is being left holding the bill...
including paying for the cost of disposal.

The modern consumer pays a lot less for the dirt cheap modern appliances too.

In my opinon...no.

I intentionally try to have older appliances, vehicles, machines to
lower repair costs and keep overall ownership cost to a minimum.

Your thoughts?

TMT

Irreparable damageBy Bryce Baschuk
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
January 9, 2007
Bill Jones, after 42 years, is finally closing the Procter Appliance
Service shop in Silver Spring.
"You can't make a good salary to survive on the way you could
years ago," said the 61-year-old owner of the oven, refrigerator and
washer-dryer repair shop. "Everything has changed in the appliance
business."
Mr. Jones recently sold his home in Laurel and is in the process
of moving to Bluffton, S.C., with his wife, Jeannette.
Mr. Jones is one of the many Washington-area repairmen who have
struggled to stay afloat as residents replace, not repair, old
appliances.
"It's a dying trade," said Scott Brown, Webmaster of
www.fixitnow.com and self-proclaimed "Samurai Appliance Repairman."
The reason for this is twofold, Mr. Brown said: The cost of
appliances is coming down because of cheap overseas labor and
improved manufacturing techniques, and repairmen are literally dying
off. The average age of appliance technicians is 42, and there
are few young repairmen to take their place, said Mr. Brown, 47. He
has been repairing appliances in New Hampshire for the past 13 years.
In the next seven years, the number of veteran appliance
repairmen will decrease nationwide as current workers retire or
transfer to other occupations, the Department of Labor said in its
2007 Occupational Outlook Handbook.
The federal agency said many prospective repairmen prefer work
that is less strenuous and want more comfortable working conditions.
Local repairmen said it is simply a question of economics.
"Nowadays appliances are cheap, so people are just getting new
ones," said Paul Singh, a manager at the Appliance Service Depot, a
repair shop in Northwest. "As a result, business has slowed down a
lot."
"The average repair cost for a household appliance is $50 to
$350," said Shahid Rana, a service technician at Rana Refrigeration,
a repair shop in Capitol Heights. "If the repair is going to cost
more than that, we usually tell the customer to go out and buy a new
one." It's not uncommon for today's repairmen to condemn an
appliance instead of fixing it for the sake of their customers'
wallets. If they decide to repair an appliance that is likely to
break down again, repairmen are criticized by their customers and
often lose business because of a damaged reputation.
Mr. Jones said he based his repair decisions on the 50 percent
rule: "If the cost of service costs more than 50 percent of the price
of a new machine, I'll tell my customers to get a new one."
"A lot of customers want me to be honest with them, so I'll tell
them my opinion and leave the decision making up to them," he said.
In recent years, consumers have tended to buy new appliances when
existing warranties expire rather than repair old appliances, the
Department of Labor said.
Mr. Brown acknowledged this trend. "Lower-end appliances which
you can buy for $200 to $300 are basically throwaway appliances," he
said. "They are so inexpensive that you shouldn't pay to get them
repaired." "The quality of the materials that are being made
aren't lasting,"
Mr. Jones said. "Nowadays you're seeing more plastic and more circuit
boards, and they aren't holding up."
Many home appliances sold in the United States are made in
Taiwan, Singapore, China and Mexico.
"Nothing is made [in the United States] anymore," Mr. Jones said.
"But then again, American parts are only better to a point, a lot of
U.S. companies are all about the dollar."
Fortunately for the next generation of repairmen, some of today's
high-end appliances make service repairs the most cost-effective
option.
The Department of Labor concurred. "Over the next decade, as more
consumers purchase higher-priced appliances designed to have much
longer lives, they will be more likely to use repair services than to
purchase new appliances," said the 2007 Occupational Outlook
Handbook. Modern, energy-efficient refrigerators can cost as
much as $5,000
to $10,000, and with such a hefty price tag, throwing one away is not
an option.
In some cases, repairmen can help consumers reduce the amount of
aggravation that a broken appliance will cause.
Consider the time and effort it takes to shop for a new
appliance, wait for its delivery, remove the old one and get the new
one installed.
In addition, certain appliances such as ovens and washing
machines can be a bigger hassle to replace because they are
connected to gas and water lines.
"It takes your time, it takes your effort, and if you don't
install the new appliance, you'll have to hire a service technician
to install it anyways," Mr. Brown said.
Some consumers bond with their appliances like old pets, and for
loyalty or sentimental reasons, refuse to let them go.
Mr. Rana said some of his clients have appliances that are more
than 30 years old. It makes sense, he said. "A lot of old
refrigerators are worth fixing because they give people good
service. They just don't make things like they used to."

 

[Ignoramus4939]

This raises an apparent contradiction. Most people believe that appliances were
built much better in the past than they are now and yet in the past a whole
industry survived on doing appliance repairs. Perhaps they only seemed to be
built better in the past because we kept them longer and the only reason we kept
them longer is because we repaired them instead of replacing them. The flipside
of that same coin is that perhaps today's appliances only seem to be inferior
because we replace them more often and the only reason we replace them more
often is because we don't repair them.

At least things were more repairable in the past.

I routinely buy and repair various expensive industrial things, which
usually can be repaired by doing very simple things. (like my recent
experience with Cummins diesels). That stuff was designed to be
modular and easy to repair. At the same time, most consumer equipment
is absolutely not repairable.

i

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

On what do you base this statement? To claim that (on average) a new dryer will
only last five years is absurd. What, you once knew "a guy" who replaced a five
year old dryer? The dryer has to be one of the simplest and most reliable
things in the home. There just isn't that much to go wrong.

From dozens of relatives and friends who had major problems from 4 to 6
years. My stepmother replaced a GE washer and dryer pair that was less
than two years old because they were crap. Not much to go wrong? cheap
parts, poor designs and sloppy assembly work. Something is making noise
and you find a broken weld, sheared off bolt or bad bearing that SHOULD
NOT HAVE HAPPENED.

How can anyone make a claim either way based on personal experience? He would
have to have personal experience on *multiple* old appliances that lasted a long
time (a mathematical impossibilty) and *multiple* newer ones that did not.
Anything else boils down to "I once knew a guy... or Joe down at the appliance
store once told me...".

I didn't talk to the appliance repair guys any longer than it took to
know they were either lying, or a thief. I bought parts I needed from
the manufacturer, a distributor, or on line. Sears has a decent
assortment of [parts for lots of brands, and the UPS truck or mailman
drops them at your door.


How many dryers have you repaired, or scrapped? I've repaired
everything I can, for over 40 years. It didn't matter if it was an
appliance, a car, a house, a broadcast transmitter, or even a radio for
the space station, I fixed it. As you can see from my sig file, I live
in Florida, and a LOT of poorly designed crap dies from nearby lightning
strikes.

It is an absolute certainty that all of appliances that lasted a long time were
manufactured a long time ago. That does not equate to "All of the appliances
made a long time ago lasted a long time". Nobody knows how long the appliance
they bought last month is going to last so how can a valid comparison be made?

A friend bought a brand new Neptune washer that didn't last a month.
The dealer had to replace it TWICE before he had one that lasted over a
month.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[Don K]

So a tv set forty years ago was handwired (I have no clue whether that
was a good or bad thing, but it was costly) on a heavy metal chassis, and
was a significant purchase for most households. But when something
broke, the cost of repair was low compare to the cost of replacement, to
that tv set would be taken to the local repair shop. But, pretty much
all the parts in that tv set were generic, so that repair shop did not
have to be in some relationship with the manufacturer, and the parts could
be had at the local electronics store (and since those stores were selling
to all kinds of people, the same general parts to repair that tv set were
also used by they hobbyist and even the professional, the stores could
survive with a relatively small stock that was bought by many), so the
repair shop often didn't need to keep a lot of stock, especially not
a lot of specialized stock.

Also because the failure rate was so high, most failures would be
simply a burnt-out vacuum tube. These repairs were relatively easy
to fix and a TV repairman could make a living charging for simple
quick house calls. Most corner drugstores had a tube-tester for the
DIY repairman and a stock of common tubes 12AU7, etc.

Eventually and after replacing a lot of tubes the TV would need
realignment.

Modern TV's hardly ever need to be realigned. This is not the
result of planned obselescence. It is the result of phasing-in
new improvements in technology as it develops. For instance,
it is just-as-easy to manufacture a chip with 100,000 transistors
as with one or two. This means circuitry can be made extra-stable,
and to some extent, self-healing, and self-aligning.

Don

 

[Don Phillipson]

Just had the chain adjuster failed on a dirt cheap relatively
new electric chainsaw. I assumed that they wouldnt bother
to supply parts like that, but I was wrong, readily available
and in fact free. Clearly no planned obsolescence there.

Contrast my Sears Craftsman chainsaw (42 cc engine,
18" blade) regularly $C 250 discounted to $C 200. This
required repair during the warranted one year (unexplained
jingle, source not found when I took off various covers: Sears
replaced the ignition module free.) After total 20 months
intermittent use the saw would not start. Sears diagnosed
that it needed a new cylinder and piston i.e. parts costing $180
plus $100 service time. This unit is marked "assembled in the
USA" i.e. from imported components.

This was my second, the first being a Husqvarna 325 in 1990.
That too required warranty repairs early, and was kept running
by a small family motor repair shop. When it finally stopped I did
not want to pay for further repairs since the repairman had told
me the Husqv 325 was a notoriously dud design, not manufactured
for more than a year or two. I bought Sears since Consumer
Reports flagged several models as a Best Buy. I guess the CR
test system could not include length of service.

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On what do you base this statement? To claim that (on average) a new dryer will
only last five years is absurd. What, you once knew "a guy" who replaced a five
year old dryer? The dryer has to be one of the simplest and most reliable
things in the home. There just isn't that much to go wrong.

From dozens of relatives and friends who had major problems from 4 to 6
years. My stepmother replaced a GE washer and dryer pair that was less
than two years old because they were crap. Not much to go wrong? cheap
parts, poor designs and sloppy assembly work. Something is making noise
and you find a broken weld, sheared off bolt or bad bearing that SHOULD
NOT HAVE HAPPENED.

How can anyone make a claim either way based on personal experience? He would
have to have personal experience on *multiple* old appliances that lasted a long
time (a mathematical impossibilty) and *multiple* newer ones that did not.
Anything else boils down to "I once knew a guy... or Joe down at the appliance
store once told me...".

I didn't talk to the appliance repair guys any longer than it took to
know they were either lying, or a thief. I bought parts I needed from
the manufacturer, a distributor, or on line. Sears has a decent
assortment of [parts for lots of brands, and the UPS truck or mailman
drops them at your door.


How many dryers have you repaired, or scrapped? I've repaired
everything I can, for over 40 years. It didn't matter if it was an
appliance, a car, a house, a broadcast transmitter, or even a radio for
the space station, I fixed it. As you can see from my sig file, I live
in Florida, and a LOT of poorly designed crap dies from nearby lightning
strikes.

It is an absolute certainty that all of appliances that lasted a long time were
manufactured a long time ago. That does not equate to "All of the appliances
made a long time ago lasted a long time". Nobody knows how long the appliance
they bought last month is going to last so how can a valid comparison be made?

A friend bought a brand new Neptune washer that didn't last a month.
The dealer had to replace it TWICE before he had one that lasted over a
month.

You sure it wasn't a Uranus washer?

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
Yes, my mother used her first clothes dryer for over 30 years. We
replaced the belt three times. A new dryer might last five years,
total.

On what do you base this statement? To claim that (on average) a new dryer will
only last five years is absurd. What, you once knew "a guy" who replaced a five
year old dryer? The dryer has to be one of the simplest and most reliable
things in the home. There just isn't that much to go wrong.

From dozens of relatives and friends who had major problems from 4 to 6
years. My stepmother replaced a GE washer and dryer pair that was less
than two years old because they were crap. Not much to go wrong? cheap
parts, poor designs and sloppy assembly work. Something is making noise
and you find a broken weld, sheared off bolt or bad bearing that SHOULD
NOT HAVE HAPPENED.

The washer lasted 18 years before the hard water ruined it,
and it had a timer replaced when it was 12 years Old. You think that
the new designs are an improvement?

How can anyone make a claim either way based on personal experience? He would
have to have personal experience on *multiple* old appliances that lasted a long
time (a mathematical impossibilty) and *multiple* newer ones that did not.
Anything else boils down to "I once knew a guy... or Joe down at the appliance
store once told me...".

I didn't talk to the appliance repair guys any longer than it took to
know they were either lying, or a thief. I bought parts I needed from
the manufacturer, a distributor, or on line. Sears has a decent
assortment of [parts for lots of brands, and the UPS truck or mailman
drops them at your door.


How many dryers have you repaired, or scrapped? I've repaired
everything I can, for over 40 years. It didn't matter if it was an
appliance, a car, a house, a broadcast transmitter, or even a radio for
the space station, I fixed it. As you can see from my sig file, I live
in Florida, and a LOT of poorly designed crap dies from nearby lightning
strikes.

It is an absolute certainty that all of appliances that lasted a long time were
manufactured a long time ago. That does not equate to "All of the appliances
made a long time ago lasted a long time". Nobody knows how long the appliance
they bought last month is going to last so how can a valid comparison be made?

A friend bought a brand new Neptune washer that didn't last a month.
The dealer had to replace it TWICE before he had one that lasted over a
month.

You sure it wasn't a Uranus washer?

If they hadn't fixed the thing Randy would have told the dealer to put
it there.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Also because the failure rate was so high, most failures would be
simply a burnt-out vacuum tube. These repairs were relatively easy
to fix and a TV repairman could make a living charging for simple
quick house calls. Most corner drugstores had a tube-tester for the
DIY repairman and a stock of common tubes 12AU7, etc.

Eventually and after replacing a lot of tubes the TV would need
realignment.

Modern TV's hardly ever need to be realigned. This is not the
result of planned obselescence. It is the result of phasing-in
new improvements in technology as it develops. For instance,
it is just-as-easy to manufacture a chip with 100,000 transistors
as with one or two. This means circuitry can be made extra-stable,
and to some extent, self-healing, and self-aligning.

Don

That doesn't stop you from having bad SAW filters, though.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[b]

Too_Many_Tools ha escrito:

In my opinon, it is a symptom of a larger problem....

Companies are setting up the situation that you are forced to buy new
versus repair the used applicance, car, electronics, computers, cell
phones....because they make a larger profit.
The MBAs that are crafting the company policy are behind this.
And the consumer is being left holding the bill...including paying for
the cost of disposal.

I dont think it is planned obsolescence per se,( as in a sort of
conspiracy to deliberately make things to expire at a given moment.)
it's more to do with capitalist economics. It saves companies money to
cut back on service and parts support, and with the constant search for
cheaper production we see a decline in build standards. This enables
the final retail price to be lowered, more volume of sales etc.
This has created a consumer culture of the 'throwaway product' .
Longevity is not high on the average consumer's list of priorities when
shopping. It's more to do with how cool a thing looks, and how it
complements their lifestyle. rather moronic in my opinion, but that
seems to be what many people believe, probably because they know no
better.
People pay less and value the product less. For all but the very high
end gear,( a minority niche in the market), the idea of repair for
things like TVs doesn't come into it for the majority of those sort of
products sold. All well and good, but it's ultimately the environment
which pays, and this unsustainable lifestyle of consumerism means we
have to start wars to get oil to keep on supporting this system (after
all where does all that plastic come from?) Not to mention
envirtonmental side effects from the millions of tons of waste
generated by this process which defy contemplation. And let's not
forget costly solutions to attempt to solve this problem. So I reckon
we should be asking about the *real* cost of these 'cheap' throwaway
items - consider the excessive use of raw materials, treatment of waste
etc etc. - and they're suddenly not so cheap after all!

Incidentally, there are some great pics of this phenomenon here:
http://www.chrisjordan.com/

regards, -B.

 

[JR North]

The Direct Drive vac power heads I have seen are cheap plasicky
lightweight air turbine design. Poor torque to the brushes and the loss
of suction due to energy absorbed by the turbine make these inefficient
and, of course, failure prone due to cheap plastic components. The
replacement belt for my power head was $2.35 retail at the local vac
shop. 10 for $12.00 including shipping on Ebay. Try and find replacement
air turbine parts for that new vac-anywhere. The original belt lasted 20
years and only failed because my GF sucked a sash cord up and stalled
the head.
JR
Dweller in te cellar

Unfortunately, you have to plan for Planned Obsolescence several years
behind.
For instance: my Kenmore washer/dryer set is 16 years old. Still going
strong. No repairs. Lots of posts in S.E.R (and here) on current W/D
models puking after 2 or so years.
My JC Penney (Eureka) canister vac is 22 years old. Only thing
replaced was power head belt a couple years ago. New vacs are garbage.
I could go on and on....

Lousy design is nothing like planned obsolescence.

Most obviously with the modern approach of beltless direct drive
systems which dont even have a belt that will ever need replacing.

Too_Many_Tools wrote:

In my opinon...no.

I intentionally try to have older appliances, vehicles, machines to
lower repair costs and keep overall ownership cost to a minimum.

Your thoughts?

TMT

Irreparable damageBy Bryce Baschuk
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
January 9, 2007
Bill Jones, after 42 years, is finally closing the Procter Appliance
Service shop in Silver Spring.
"You can't make a good salary to survive on the way you could
years ago," said the 61-year-old owner of the oven, refrigerator and
washer-dryer repair shop. "Everything has changed in the appliance
business."
Mr. Jones recently sold his home in Laurel and is in the process
of moving to Bluffton, S.C., with his wife, Jeannette.
Mr. Jones is one of the many Washington-area repairmen who have
struggled to stay afloat as residents replace, not repair, old
appliances.
"It's a dying trade," said Scott Brown, Webmaster of
www.fixitnow.com and self-proclaimed "Samurai Appliance Repairman."
The reason for this is twofold, Mr. Brown said: The cost of
appliances is coming down because of cheap overseas labor and
improved manufacturing techniques, and repairmen are literally dying
off. The average age of appliance technicians is 42, and there
are few young repairmen to take their place, said Mr. Brown, 47. He
has been repairing appliances in New Hampshire for the past 13 years.
In the next seven years, the number of veteran appliance
repairmen will decrease nationwide as current workers retire or
transfer to other occupations, the Department of Labor said in its
2007 Occupational Outlook Handbook.
The federal agency said many prospective repairmen prefer work
that is less strenuous and want more comfortable working conditions.
Local repairmen said it is simply a question of economics.
"Nowadays appliances are cheap, so people are just getting new
ones," said Paul Singh, a manager at the Appliance Service Depot, a
repair shop in Northwest. "As a result, business has slowed down a
lot."
"The average repair cost for a household appliance is $50 to
$350," said Shahid Rana, a service technician at Rana Refrigeration,
a repair shop in Capitol Heights. "If the repair is going to cost
more than that, we usually tell the customer to go out and buy a new
one." It's not uncommon for today's repairmen to condemn an
appliance instead of fixing it for the sake of their customers'
wallets. If they decide to repair an appliance that is likely to
break down again, repairmen are criticized by their customers and
often lose business because of a damaged reputation.
Mr. Jones said he based his repair decisions on the 50 percent
rule: "If the cost of service costs more than 50 percent of the price
of a new machine, I'll tell my customers to get a new one."
"A lot of customers want me to be honest with them, so I'll tell
them my opinion and leave the decision making up to them," he said.
In recent years, consumers have tended to buy new appliances when
existing warranties expire rather than repair old appliances, the
Department of Labor said.
Mr. Brown acknowledged this trend. "Lower-end appliances which
you can buy for $200 to $300 are basically throwaway appliances," he
said. "They are so inexpensive that you shouldn't pay to get them
repaired." "The quality of the materials that are being made
aren't lasting," Mr. Jones said. "Nowadays you're seeing more plastic and more circuit
boards, and they aren't holding up."
Many home appliances sold in the United States are made in
Taiwan, Singapore, China and Mexico.
"Nothing is made [in the United States] anymore," Mr. Jones said.
"But then again, American parts are only better to a point, a lot of
U.S. companies are all about the dollar."
Fortunately for the next generation of repairmen, some of today's
high-end appliances make service repairs the most cost-effective
option.
The Department of Labor concurred. "Over the next decade, as more
consumers purchase higher-priced appliances designed to have much
longer lives, they will be more likely to use repair services than to
purchase new appliances," said the 2007 Occupational Outlook
Handbook. Modern, energy-efficient refrigerators can cost as
much as $5,000 to $10,000, and with such a hefty price tag, throwing one away is not
an option.
In some cases, repairmen can help consumers reduce the amount of
aggravation that a broken appliance will cause.
Consider the time and effort it takes to shop for a new
appliance, wait for its delivery, remove the old one and get the new
one installed.
In addition, certain appliances such as ovens and washing
machines can be a bigger hassle to replace because they are
connected to gas and water lines.
"It takes your time, it takes your effort, and if you don't
install the new appliance, you'll have to hire a service technician
to install it anyways," Mr. Brown said.
Some consumers bond with their appliances like old pets, and for
loyalty or sentimental reasons, refuse to let them go.
Mr. Rana said some of his clients have appliances that are more
than 30 years old. It makes sense, he said. "A lot of old
refrigerators are worth fixing because they give people good
service. They just don't make things like they used to."

--
--------------------------------------------------------------
Home Page: http://www.seanet.com/~jasonrnorth
If you're not the lead dog, the view never changes
Doubt yourself, and the real world will eat you alive
The world doesn't revolve around you, it revolves around me
No skeletons in the closet; just decomposing corpses

 

[Logan Shaw]

In my opinon...no.

I intentionally try to have older appliances, vehicles, machines to
lower repair costs and keep overall ownership cost to a minimum.

Your thoughts?

I don't think planned obsolescence is a good thing or a bad thing,
because in most cases it's fictional. Appliances and other items
you buy aren't designed to fail. They are designed to be cheap to
manufacture.

The article you mentioned quoted a repairman saying that lots of
new devices are made with circuit boards (rather than discrete
components). There's a reason for that. Circuits built with
circuit boards and integrated circuits cost much, much less to
produce than ones made of discrete components. Probably half
as much, maybe even less than that.

I'm not sure people understand how streamlined and optimized modern
manufacturing techniques are. The reason we get all these appliances
and electronics items for so cheap is the way they are made. To me,
it is truly remarkable that you can go to the store and buy a DVD
player for $30. It might only last 2 or 3 years, but 10 years ago,
it would have cost $10,000 to build an equivalent machine (just
because of the processing power).

So the question, to me, is this: do you want to buy a new item
for $100 and have it last 5 or 10 years, or do you want to spend
$200 for it and have it last 10 or 20? My answer would be that
I'd rather have the item that costs half as much and lasts half
as long. Why? Because I can take the $100 I saved and put it
in the bank. In 5 or 10 years when the item breaks, I can take
the $100 out of the bank, and it will have grown with interest
that has outpaced inflation, so it will be worth more than $100
in inflation-adjusted dollars, and at that time, the price of the
device may have gone down to less than $100 in inflation-adjusted
dollars, and it will certainly be more up to date (more energy
efficient, better support for new media formats, smaller, whatever).

To put it a slightly different way, for that $30 DVD player, it
costs something like $10 labor and $10 materials to put that thing
together in the first place (because there are packaging and shipping
costs and profit). So how efficient is it to spend $30 labor fixing
it? It isn't efficient. Repairing mass-produced items isn't
efficient because one person working on one item and doing everything
by hand simply doesn't have the same economies of scale that a
highly-optimized manufacturing environment has.

- Logan

 

[Anthony]

Dude,
I hate to be the one to break this news to you, but *everything*
manufactured has a pre-determined design life. Be it 30 nanoseconds or
300 years, it _does_ have a design life. This design life is set in the
initial concept phase of design work, it is one of the parameters that
_must_ be determined before any actual design work takes place. Without
that parameter, you cannot design. So, yes, appliances have a design
life, and that life is, due to economics, going to be the warranty period
plus some safety factor (to help ensure that the product doesn't cause
expensive warranty claims).
Appliances are a commodity product, just like about every other mass
produced product on the market. The population is not expanding enough
to for it to be economically feasable for a company to produce a product
that will last 30 years with minimal upkeep, except in special
circumstances. The product has to 'wear out' or fail within some time
period so as to generate repeat sales for the market.


--
Anthony

You can't 'idiot proof' anything....every time you try, they just make
better idiots.

Remove sp to reply via email

 

[Rod Speed]

Contrast my Sears Craftsman chainsaw (42 cc engine,
18" blade) regularly $C 250 discounted to $C 200. This
required repair during the warranted one year (unexplained
jingle, source not found when I took off various covers: Sears
replaced the ignition module free.) After total 20 months
intermittent use the saw would not start. Sears diagnosed
that it needed a new cylinder and piston i.e. parts costing $180

Sounds very implausible unless you abused it very
badly by not providing adequate lubrication etc.

plus $100 service time. This unit is marked
"assembled in the USA" i.e. from imported components.

This was my second, the first being a Husqvarna 325 in 1990.
That too required warranty repairs early, and was kept running
by a small family motor repair shop.

Thats the main reason I went electric. I dont need the
away from home capability for cutting firewood etc and
dont like very small gasoline engines reliability wise.

When it finally stopped I did not want to pay for further repairs
since the repairman had told me the Husqv 325 was a notoriously
dud design, not manufactured for more than a year or two.

Clearly was enough of an arsehole to not tell
you that when you first brought it in for repair.

I bought Sears since Consumer Reports flagged several models as a Best Buy.

Trouble with those is that they cant really get a handle
on reliability, let alone flagrant abuse by the owner.

I guess the CR test system could not include length of service.

Yep, they dont even do that well on that with cars, let alone appliances.
It just isnt feasible and even if it was, by the time they have decent stats,
that model is long gone. I usually find that its damned hard to actually
find the products that come out on top of the list even if you are buying
the product just after the test has come out. In spades down the track.

I just lucked out there recently when buying a satnav, they had just
done the test a month before I wanted to get one, all the products
were still current, and I could borrow the two candidates that did
well in the test from mates and could see how I liked them myself.
Went for the TomTom because its pure touch screen, did the
destination selection much better than the Navman, and the test
claimed that the TomTom does a lot better in tunnels and the
CBD than the alts. I havent had a chance to test that claim yet.