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orbital angular momentum data transfer controversy

J

Jamie M

Hi,

I was reading more about the orbital angular momentum data transfer
technique, which apparently most people think is a bad idea:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20217938

New idea: Apparently there is no limit to the orbital angular momentum,
ie. you can corkscrew a beam of light or electrons as much as the
equipment allows and the beam will just have more OAM. If this is
true, then maybe that gives a lot of bandwidth to send data potentially?

cheers,
Jamie
 
K

Ken S. Tucker

Jamie said:
Hi,

I was reading more about the orbital angular momentum data transfer
technique, which apparently most people think is a bad idea:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20217938

New idea: Apparently there is no limit to the orbital angular momentum,
ie. you can corkscrew a beam of light or electrons as much as the
equipment allows and the beam will just have more OAM. If this is
true, then maybe that gives a lot of bandwidth to send data potentially?

cheers,
Jamie

I think one thing that the quantum club always forgets is the Shannon limit.
Quantum computahs are limited because of noise, probably the reason
we have never seen one do anything useful.
Here it seems (I have just read the critical paper referred to) they try
the same thing, and likely will die in noise the same way.
Ken
 
M

Mr Stonebeach

I think one thing that the quantum club always forgets is the Shannon limit.
Quantum computahs are limited because of noise,
....
I think one thing that the quantum club always forgets is the Shannon limit.
Quantum computahs are limited because of noise,

Now what is this? Are Pantelje and Tucker alter egos of the same
....err.. personality?

Regards,
Mikko
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

I think one thing that the quantum club always forgets is the Shannon limit.
Quantum computahs are limited because of noise, probably the reason
we have never seen one do anything useful.
Here it seems (I have just read the critical paper referred to) they try
the same thing, and likely will die in noise the same way.
Ken


http://vixra.org/pdf/1209.0107v7.pdf

Abstract. We point out that the assumption that more than two
spatially orthogonal farfield wave modes (the two polarization modes)
can leave an antenna and propagate in free space violates the Second
Law of Thermodynamics and is thus incorrect.
 
O

Owen Roberts

However the optical guys have demonstrated 16 QAM in free space, using
8 closely spaced emitters.
It has a potential for short distance optical links with very high
bandwidths once the beams are merged, you get spatial patterning.

Steve
 
K

Ken S. Tucker

Mr said:
...


Now what is this? Are Pantelje and Tucker alter egos of the same
...err.. personality?

Regards,
Mikko

Apologies, a new internet SNAFU.
Ken
 
S

Sylvia Else

I think one thing that the quantum club always forgets is the Shannon
limit.
Quantum computahs are limited because of noise, probably the reason
we have never seen one do anything useful.
Here it seems (I have just read the critical paper referred to) they try
the same thing, and likely will die in noise the same way.
Ken

The Shannon limit applies to a channel. Before you can apply the Shannon
limit argument to show that some technique cannot provide an increase in
the information carrying ability, you have to show that it does not
create new channels, or if it does, that it does so at the expense of
the carrying ability of the existing channel(s).

Sylvia.
 
K

Ken S. Tucker

Spehro said:
http://vixra.org/pdf/1209.0107v7.pdf

Abstract. We point out that the assumption that more than two
spatially orthogonal farfield wave modes (the two polarization modes)
can leave an antenna and propagate in free space violates the Second
Law of Thermodynamics and is thus incorrect.

Not sure that's topical.
The (silly) english have vertical TV dipoles, but most have horizontal
TV dipoles., which is a form of 'static' polarizations.
Could a polarization be modulated?
Consider a transmission dipole rotating at 1 Mhz, with that rate
detected, a 2nd channel might rotate at 1.0001 Mhz though with
each at an emission frequency that is equal.
Ken
 
R

rickman

Not sure that's topical.
The (silly) english have vertical TV dipoles, but most have horizontal
TV dipoles., which is a form of 'static' polarizations.
Could a polarization be modulated?
Consider a transmission dipole rotating at 1 Mhz, with that rate
detected, a 2nd channel might rotate at 1.0001 Mhz though with
each at an emission frequency that is equal.
Ken

I'm not an expert at this, but doesn't the Shannon limit consider the
bandwidth vs the signal to noise ratio? Your transmissions can modulate
all they want. The question is what does this do to the transmitted
power level? How do you rotate the carrier in two different ways at the
same time in a single carrier? Using two carriers doesn't violet the
Shannon limit since they would have twice the power total.

Rick
 
J

Jamie M

The Shannon limit applies to a channel. Before you can apply the Shannon
limit argument to show that some technique cannot provide an increase in
the information carrying ability, you have to show that it does not
create new channels, or if it does, that it does so at the expense of
the carrying ability of the existing channel(s).

Sylvia.


Hi,

I don't think OAM and polarization are the same things, ie. take for
example a linear polarized source, in which the electric and magnetic
fields always have the same 180degree phase offset. If you rotate
that source (ie like rotating a flashlight axially) to give the light
beam non-zero OAM, then the phase offset of the electric and magnetic
fields will still be 180 degrees, ie. still linearly polarized.

cheers,
Jamie
 
S

Sylvia Else

So, if you dump 3 buckets of water in the river in different ways,
do you get more channels?

No, but that doesn't mean that doing something entirely different in an
entirely different scenario wouldn't create more channels.
It is a word game.

It's not a word game. Before you can use the Shannon limit you have to
identify a channel. You can change the theory and call what it applies
to an X, but then you have to identify an X.

Sylvia.
 
J

josephkk

...


Now what is this? Are Pantelje and Tucker alter egos of the same
...err.. personality?

Regards,
Mikko

Doubt it, i have seen them disagree as well.

?-)
 
M

MrTallyman

It is even simpler, if somebody states 'infinite',
that triggers 'analog' in me, and how accurate you can measure an analog level.
This goes for QM where 'infinate number of superimposed states' in my view
equals bullshit, and for this example too.
See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shannon\u2013Hartley_theorem

Dead link.

You are infinitely inaccurate. Hell, you can't even spell the word.

Look into 16 APSK and 32 APSK.

Would it have even been possible 20 years ago?
 
T

Tim Williams

Phil Hobbs said:
The quantum folks made an analogous same mistake in the early history of
quantum optics--it was widely believed that light from two different
lasers couldn't form interference fringes. The radio folks, e.g.
Hanbury Brown, knew better, and the physicists eventually came into line
after Twiss and HB published an appropriately mathematical paper on the
subject.

"Can't form fringes" according to what speed film? :)

It's amazing how different, and how identical, light and radio are. It's
also amazing how some people forget those basic facts.

Tim
 
M

Mr Stonebeach

I think one thing that the quantum club always forgets is the Shannon limit.
Quantum computahs are limited because of noise, probably the reason
we have never seen one do anything useful.

It's hard to comment anything constructive without more
specificly stated criticism. I think Shannon limit (whatever you
specifically mean by that) is well known within QC community.

Noise reduction is the bread and butter of the whole field,
(i.e. getting the Johnson noise so low that the Callen-Welton
tail becomes dominant), so it's hard to understand what exactly
you think the QC community is overlooking.

Regards,
Mikko
 
G

George Herold

You can modulate polarization, sure.  It's been done since the invention
of dirt (or at least Pockels cells, which are almost that old).

The gee whiz guys don't seem to have remembered the concept of a
complete orthonormal basis set, which is something they drill into you
as a physics undergrad (probably as an EE undergrad too, if you take any
elective fields courses).  There just aren't any missing modes for the
twisty folks to exploit--the twisty ones are linear combinations of
ordinary Gauss-Legendre beams.  The thermodynamic argument is a b***h
slap way of putting that.  It'll leave a mark.

OK Phil, I'll play a bit. (I know jack about Optical Angular
momentum.)

So If I can put some spatial mode distribution on light, that is
preserved as it propagates and is then discernable at the detector,
doesn't that count as another channel?
(I'm not saying it's cheaper than just running another fiber.)

George H.
 
M

Mr Stonebeach

Somebody in sci.physics once argued that a 'quantum computah' could
solve the traveling salesman's problem in next to no time.

'Somebody' in the unmoderated group like sci.physics is
not the Quantum Computing community. I'm almost sure
you have talked to some amateur which has just read an
article written by some popular science journalist without
a clue.
I replied that if you take into account that noise, or translated to moremundane speak,
the error rate of one quantum operation (25 % or so),
and then do for example 1000 such operations, the probability of you 'solving'
ANYTHING is less then the universe changing into a monkey as saying hello:)

Yes of course. That is very well known by the QC community, but
it may not be understood by an anonymous person posting to
sci.physics.

Agreed, there have not been that impressive results from Quantum
Computers, but the reason is not that those guys wouldn't understand
what noise is or what Shannon theorem says. The reason is that
the task is HARD.

You seem to be talking about quantum-gate based computers.
The technique perhaps more likely to give some practical results
soon is the Adiabatic Quantum computing, although it is
not a "full" quantum computer. It just finds global minima in
various optimization tasks.

I was a couple of weeks ago in a conference in Portland, where
Richard Harris from D-Wave explained their AQC hardware. Their
AQC finds the global minimum of a N-dimensional Ising system
with freely programmable couplings. Harris claimed that many
problems can be cast in the form of Ising system minimization,
including image recognition problems tackled by Google Inc.

Their computation time scales as
T[us] =5.84 N^2 + 65.5 N + 2E6 the function of the problem
dimensionality N. This scaling does not come from a theory,
but from the actual engineering of their functioning 128-qubit
processor, the D-Wave One. For instance, the constant
2-second -term comes from the time it takes the system to
cool back to the 20 millikelvin operating temperature, after
the couplings are programmed through RSFQ circuitry. The
programming cycle heats the system to 200 millikelvins.
Lockheed Martin bought one D-Wave One system
recently, I suppose not because it is practical, but because
they want to stay at the edge of the developments in the
field.

The classical supercomputers still perform the Ising
system minimization faster then the D-Wave One,
but the classical computational time increases ~exp(N),
when using the fastest known Simulated Annealing or
Iterated Taboo Search algorithms. Harris claimed that
the break-even complexity is roughly N~2000, and that
they are just about to roll out their 512-qubit
D-Wave Two processor.

The stuff above are from Harris' talk, it sounds plausible
to me, but I haven't studied all the details.All that stuff
is pretty new to me, D-Wave has been criticized in the
past about not telling the details of their work.

The rest of the drivel would take too long to comment,
here's just one thing:
Electronics has brought us many fun things, not that we really need those,
but usable in most cases, while all that crap physics has brought us nothing.

You don't count Bardeen's work as physics?

Regards,
Mikko
 
J

Jamie M

OK Phil, I'll play a bit. (I know jack about Optical Angular
momentum.)

So If I can put some spatial mode distribution on light, that is
preserved as it propagates and is then discernable at the detector,
doesn't that count as another channel?
(I'm not saying it's cheaper than just running another fiber.)

George H.


Hi,

I guess there is no room for OAM in the theory of electromagnetic waves
if it really does propagate as transverse waves, and the typical way to
get a corkscrew effect is to superimpose two orthogonal transverse
waves that are out of phase to make the elliptical polarization, this
causes the pseudo OAM by having the vector of the E field and M field
from the two orthogonal transverse waves rotating.

If physicists think there is such a think as fundamental OAM, they must
think light doesn't propagate as a transverse wave then I guess, that
would be interesting if light transverse waves could corkscrew I guess,
maybe there is a way to do that.

cheers,
Jamie
 
Hi,

I guess there is no room for OAM in the theory of electromagnetic waves
if it really does propagate as transverse waves, and the typical way to
get a corkscrew effect is to superimpose two orthogonal transverse
waves that are out of phase to make the elliptical polarization, this
causes the pseudo OAM by having the vector of the E field and M field
from the two orthogonal transverse waves rotating.

OAM is not the same as superimposed orthogonal transverse
polarizations, nor circular polarization.
If physicists think there is such a think as fundamental OAM, they must
think light doesn't propagate as a transverse wave then I guess, that
would be interesting if light transverse waves could corkscrew I guess,
maybe there is a way to do that.

Typically, optical OAM beams are generated using fork holograms:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._generation.png/550px-Hologram_generation.png

For RF, one way is to take a dish reflector and cut it from center
to edge, then displace one edge in the direction of propagation and
the other edge "backwards" so to speak; IOW make it a sort of slice of
a corkscrew:

http://ej.iop.org/images/1367-2630/14/3/033001/Full/nj400111fA4_online.jpg

from:

http://iopscience.iop.org/1367-2630/14/3/033001/article


Mark L. Fergerson
 
J

Jamie M

OAM is not the same as superimposed orthogonal transverse
polarizations, nor circular polarization.


Typically, optical OAM beams are generated using fork holograms:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._generation.png/550px-Hologram_generation.png

Hi,

Those are neat, I think they are used in special electron microscope to
give the electron beam angular momentum for allowing different types of
sample measurements to be done, but the efficiency and amount of
angular momentum is limited with that technique. I didn't know they
can work on light too!

cheers,
Jamie
 
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