Nickel/copper transmutation is a side effect

[amdx]

Listening to the Rossi interview.
Rossi stated that the copper transmutation is a side effect.
I'm not sure what that means!
Is the heat produced by the transmutation?
Is the heat produced when the proton is removed from the hydrogen?
What's left when you remove the proton from hydrogen?

Mikek

 

[amdx]

One very angry electron!

Angry enough to produce a bunch of heat?
Mikek

 

[Martin Riddle]

Listening to the Rossi interview.
Rossi stated that the copper transmutation is a side effect.
I'm not sure what that means!
Is the heat produced by the transmutation?
Is the heat produced when the proton is removed from the hydrogen?
What's left when you remove the proton from hydrogen?

Mikek

Transmutation is not a 'side effect'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_transmutation

Cheer

 

[amdx]

Transmutation is not a 'side effect'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_transmutation

Cheer

In the context Rossi was using, ending up with copper
is a side effect of ( And I'm really stretching here) removing
the proton from hydrogen. In order to produce heat the proton is removed
from hydrogen and the nickel is used to facilitate this.
The copper is just a side effect (byproduct).
Rossi could throw that proton elsewhere if he could get
it from the hydrogen.
Again, I'm just pokin at the edges, may not have a clue.
Could be wildly inaccurate, just my speculation.
Hoping it is a real process that changes the world.
Mikek

 

[Martin Riddle]

In the context Rossi was using, ending up with copper
is a side effect of ( And I'm really stretching here) removing
the proton from hydrogen. In order to produce heat the proton is
removed from hydrogen and the nickel is used to facilitate this.
The copper is just a side effect (byproduct).
Rossi could throw that proton elsewhere if he could get
it from the hydrogen.
Again, I'm just pokin at the edges, may not have a clue.
Could be wildly inaccurate, just my speculation.
Hoping it is a real process that changes the world.
Mikek

Transmutation = a reaction in which particles from one decay are used to
transform another atomic nucleus

A reaction, not a side effect.

Cheers

 

[Jim Wilkins]

In the context Rossi was using, ending up with copper
is a side effect of ( And I'm really stretching here) removing
the proton from hydrogen. In order to produce heat the proton is removed
from hydrogen and the nickel is used to facilitate this.
The copper is just a side effect (byproduct).
Rossi could throw that proton elsewhere if he could get
it from the hydrogen.
Again, I'm just pokin at the edges, may not have a clue.
Could be wildly inaccurate, just my speculation.
Hoping it is a real process that changes the world.
Mikek

Hydrogen IS a proton, the electron is optional.

Gaseous hydrogen consists of two hydrogen atoms bonded into a molecule. Many
metals including nickel can break apart the hydrogen molecule into its two
separate protons which adhere to the metal atoms while their electrons join
the party with all the others. (In metals the electrons roam freely, that's
why they conduct electricity so well)

Chemically hydrogen would be a metal if compressed and cooled enough, so
nickel + proton is an alloy.

It's more like water wetting a sponge than a true chemical reaction and the
hydrogen protons don't stick tightly, or release a lot of energy, but the
protons are more available to react with other things when lightly stuck to
the nickel than when happily bonded to each other as a gas. One example that
uses this is a Coleman lantern mantle.

Another is nickel-metal hydride batteries which store a lot of hydrogen
compactly without a pressure vessel this way.
Since Wiki is going down, here's a non-beginner explanation:
http://www.cobasys.com/pdf/tutorial/inside_nimh_battery_technology.pdf

jsw

 

[Han]

Listening to the Rossi interview.
Rossi stated that the copper transmutation is a side effect.
I'm not sure what that means!
Is the heat produced by the transmutation?
Is the heat produced when the proton is removed from the hydrogen?
What's left when you remove the proton from hydrogen?

Mikek

Look at the periodic table. Ni is element #28, Cu #29. What's the
difference? Right, exactly 1 (proton). The assumption is that there is
fusion taking place, whereby a non-natural isotope of copper is formed,
"transmutated" from the nickel. The natural (averaged) atomic weights of
Ni and Cu are respectively 58.7 and 63.5. This would suggest that the
newly formed Cu would have an atomic weight of roughly (averaged) 59.7,
and thus be almost 4 neutrons short. I wonder how stable such isotope(s)
would be.

On the other hand, if the heating of Ni and H2 would make the hydrogen
"dissolve" into the nickel, creating an alloy-like material, one wonders
whether that process would/should have a positive or negative delta G.
My thermodynamics is really stale after almost 50 years ...

 

[Jim Wilkins]

Look at the periodic table. Ni is element #28, Cu #29. What's the
difference? Right, exactly 1 (proton). The assumption is that there is
fusion taking place, whereby a non-natural isotope of copper is formed,
"transmutated" from the nickel. The natural (averaged) atomic weights of
Ni and Cu are respectively 58.7 and 63.5. This would suggest that the
newly formed Cu would have an atomic weight of roughly (averaged) 59.7,
and thus be almost 4 neutrons short. I wonder how stable such isotope(s)
would be.

On the other hand, if the heating of Ni and H2 would make the hydrogen
"dissolve" into the nickel, creating an alloy-like material, one wonders
whether that process would/should have a positive or negative delta G.
My thermodynamics is really stale after almost 50 years ...
Best regards
Han

The photo I saw showed a brazed copper pipe reactor. Hydrogen would reduce
the oxidized copper inside to dust that could easily be blown into and
contaminate the nickel powder.

jsw

 

[amdx]

Transmutation = a reaction in which particles from one decay are used to
transform another atomic nucleus

A reaction, not a side effect.

Cheers

It is semantics.
In the "context" of what Rossi said, copper is just a side effect.
I originally thought that the transmutation produced the heat.
Now it seems (to me) that the heat is produced when the proton is
removed from the hydrogen. The side effect is copper.
Again semantics.
I just hope it works!
Mikek

 

[amdx]

Hydrogen IS a proton, the electron is optional.

Gaseous hydrogen consists of two hydrogen atoms bonded into a molecule. Many
metals including nickel can break apart the hydrogen molecule into its two
separate protons which adhere to the metal atoms while their electrons join
the party with all the others. (In metals the electrons roam freely, that's
why they conduct electricity so well)

Chemically hydrogen would be a metal if compressed and cooled enough, so
nickel + proton is an alloy.

It's more like water wetting a sponge than a true chemical reaction and the
hydrogen protons don't stick tightly, or release a lot of energy, but the
protons are more available to react with other things when lightly stuck to
the nickel than when happily bonded to each other as a gas. One example that
uses this is a Coleman lantern mantle.

Another is nickel-metal hydride batteries which store a lot of hydrogen
compactly without a pressure vessel this way.
Since Wiki is going down, here's a non-beginner explanation:
http://www.cobasys.com/pdf/tutorial/inside_nimh_battery_technology.pdf

jsw

Somewhere a while back I saw this info:
"Fusion reactions are endothermic for all elements above iron. It's
literally impossible to get energy from turning nickel into copper."
Meaning no heat.
So, I'm guessing the heat is generated when the proton is taken from
hydrogen.
But then, I'm just trying to generate conversation.
Found the endothermic line here;
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/physics/cold-fusion-t972-60.html
Mikek

 

[Bob F]

It is semantics.
In the "context" of what Rossi said, copper is just a side effect.
I originally thought that the transmutation produced the heat.
Now it seems (to me) that the heat is produced when the proton is
removed from the hydrogen. The side effect is copper.
Again semantics.

Actually, Rossi is really trying to corner the copper supply. When he
re-processes the spend fuel cartridges, they extract the copper and sell it for
big bucks. The heat produced is just a side effect.

 

[amdx]

Mikek...

Interesting that you should mention that. An independent Swedish
analysis of some used fuel powder provided by Rossi was reported to
contain an almost equal percentage of both copper and iron.

Until that's been corroborated by others, I've filed that info in the
"possibly significant" bin - but if it's actually so, then it may
indicate that there may be fission underway along with the fusion.

There does seem to be agreement that only stable isotopes are produced.

*I picked this up today.

"Rossi says the reaction between the nickel and the hydrogen generates
gamma rays which are turned into heat by the lead shielding of the box
and must be carried away by a cooling system or the core will melt into
a hot, but harmless, puddle of lead and nickel."

So, now it seems: It's the release of gamma rays hitting the lead that
causes the heat.

So, the process in Rossi's LENR breaks the hydrogen atom.
Does this release the Gamma Rays?
Still hoping it's real.
Mikek

*picked up here, I had to copy and paste into word to read it.
http://www.fcnp.com/commentary/national/10935-the-peak-oil-crisis-cold-fusion-update.html

 

[Martin Riddle]

*I picked this up today.

"Rossi says the reaction between the nickel and the hydrogen generates
gamma rays which are turned into heat by the lead shielding of the box
and must be carried away by a cooling system or the core will melt
into a hot, but harmless, puddle of lead and nickel."

So, now it seems: It's the release of gamma rays hitting the lead
that causes the heat.

It's the process that releases the Gamma rays that also releases the
heat.
As you would say, Gamma rays are a result of a reaction. The Gamma rays
probably transmutate Nickel into copper (see Han's post), and the extra
gamma rays that escape are shielded from the environment by the Lead
shielding.
It's a low level reaction, and I can't help but bring up that the
Traveling Wave reactor design has some similarities.

Also, the catalyst is just RF energy being pumped into the cavity
between the copper and nickel. I don't think there is any other
'special' material.

Cheers

 

[amdx]

Look at the periodic table. Ni is element #28, Cu #29. What's the
difference? Right, exactly 1 (proton). The assumption is that there is
fusion taking place, whereby a non-natural isotope of copper is formed,
"transmutated" from the nickel. The natural (averaged) atomic weights of
Ni and Cu are respectively 58.7 and 63.5. This would suggest that the
newly formed Cu would have an atomic weight of roughly (averaged) 59.7,
and thus be almost 4 neutrons short. I wonder how stable such isotope(s)
would be.

On the other hand, if the heating of Ni and H2 would make the hydrogen
"dissolve" into the nickel, creating an alloy-like material, one wonders
whether that process would/should have a positive or negative delta G.
My thermodynamics is really stale after almost 50 years ...

I don't have any thermodynamics to get stale, but I read that the
transmutation of nickel to copper process is endothermic.
So, the latest quote from Rossi says the gamma rays hitting the lead
shield produces to heat.
Mikek

 

[Han]

I don't have any thermodynamics to get stale, but I read that the
transmutation of nickel to copper process is endothermic.

I am not so sure. Do you have a reference for that?

 

[amdx]

I am not so sure. Do you have a reference for that?

No, just something I read on the internet
It was a response from someone who stated that Rossi's
LENR won't work because transmutation of nickel to copper process is
endothermic.
I'm clueless, but enjoying the show.
Mikek

 

[amdx]

Actually, Rossi is really trying to corner the copper supply. When he
re-processes the spend fuel cartridges, they extract the copper and sell it for
big bucks. The heat produced is just a side effect.

Is that tongue in cheek?
Very little copper is produced.
Mikek

 

[Bob F]

Is that tongue in cheek?
Very little copper is produced.
Mikek

You got me.

 

[amdx]

You got me.

Did I get you or did you get me?
Mikek