NFPA's Creation of Security Standards/Codes

[[email protected]]

I would like to hear from those who are interested in the issue of NFPA
(National Fire Protection Association) and the creation of security
standards/codes: NFPA 730 and NFPA 731.

I'm especially interested in whether you believe a codified standard
consisting of protective mandates and installation practices is in the
best interest of the client and the security industry in general.

For those interested in my personal thoughts on this issue, feel free
to read it at
http://tpromo.com/secmis-priv2/wp-trackback.php/247

Thanks,

Al Colombo
www.securitymission.com

 

[Nick Markowitz]

I say NFPA keep your nose out of burg issue.
one of the bst ways you prevent alarms from being compromised is secrecy and
when an ahj reviews it thats just one more fnger in the pie.That could lead
to them becomming a suspect also with these standards any would be domestic
or international terrorist now knows what to expect.


--
Nick Markowitz Jr.
Owner
Markowitz Electic Protection
Private Industry Fire Investigator.
Qualified Electrical- Fire Alarm Contractor
Registered EPA Freon Recovery

Contributing Editor Pa. Firemans Magazine
Staff Editor www.securitymission.com
Senior Correspondant www.1strespondernews.com
Exclusive Correspondant www.nbfd.us
Contributor www.monyoughfire.com
Contract Broadcast Engineer WAVL 910 AM apollo Pa.

"To error is human to realy foul things up requires a computer"

Irish Diplomacy

The ability to tell a man to go to hell and he tells you how much he is
going to enjoy the trip.

 

[Rocky_T_Squirrel, Esq.]

I Agree With Nick.
Plus what might work flawlessly in one location has the chance to cause
major problems somewhere else. (seen it happen over and over again.)

RTS

 

[Norman Dayton]

I beleive that the NFPA is trying to create another revenue stream by

 

[Jim]

I would like to hear from those who are interested in the issue of NFPA
(National Fire Protection Association) and the creation of security
standards/codes: NFPA 730 and NFPA 731.

I'm especially interested in whether you believe a codified standard
consisting of protective mandates and installation practices is in the
best interest of the client and the security industry in general.

For those interested in my personal thoughts on this issue, feel free
to read it at
http://tpromo.com/secmis-priv2/wp-trackback.php/247

Thanks,

Al Colombo
www.securitymission.com

No one in any profession welcomes any "agency" that wants to "regulate"
or "codify" their job. However ...it's is a well known fact, that any
"trade" that has been astute enough to regulate/codify themselves, will
forstall anyone else coming in and trying to do it for them. The
National Burglar and Fire Alarm Association has long touted itself as
the standard bearer of the alarm trade. It has failed miserably to be
anything but a good ol boys club. With regard to promulgating codes in
the alarm trade it has only succeeded in setting up yet *another* good
ol boys club with their "Quality Club" or what ever the hell they call
it. They had the means, opportunity and motivation to do it and they
didn't.

The alarm trade is growing and becoming more and more prominent in the
publics eye. It was inevitable that someone was going to do it if the
alarm trade didn't do it themselves. As soon as NFPA announced their
intentions, all the NBFAA could do, was decry NFPA's motivations and
threaten to do it themselves. Nothing has happened since that time.
(How many years ago was that?).

In order for the alarm trade to join the ranks of other trades, it has
to join on all fronts. If it wants to be recognized as equal in income,
salaries, and prestiege as other trades are, it has to also take
responsibilty for itself and be subject to the same scrutiny as other
trades and have rules and regulations that can be enforced. Many who
are presently in this trade presently, cannot be expected to actually
*** welcome *** this with open arms or without a whole lot of kicking
and screaming, but they should have read the handwriting on the wall
and taken it under control. Thank you NBFAA ......... for nothing.

This aint gonna be easy, but it was inevitable ...... it was within our
means to do it ourselves, and we didn't. Ultimately it'll be the one
final chapter in this trades evolution and will be the definitive means
for it's survival and acceptance in the world of construction and home
improvement. Many aren't going to particularly like what's going to
happen, but that's the breaks, ..... it is sorely needed and you had
your chance to fix it.

Take a look at what this industry was 10 or 15 years ago and the events
that have changed it in that time. Had there been some regulation and
codes, would we have ever heard the words "Free Alarm System"? Would
"BIG NAME "dealership" be a means for anyone to "qualify" as an alarm
installation company? And would "two doors and a motion detector" be
called a "comprehensive, state of the art, security system"? Would
there be alarm systems that can be defeated by being torn off the wall?
Would there be cities curtailing alarm response because of false
alarms? Who knows for sure ...... but you can be sure that's the reason
we now need and and have needed enforacable guidelines. We relinquished
our well being to a bunch of big time known-nothings and they did
exactly what we demanded of them ......... nothing.

If anyone remembers Pogo's famous statement, I think he was talking
about the alarm trade.

The self proclaimed representatives of the alarm industry, the NBFAA,
have failed patheticaly and many of the present day participants in
this trade, will suffer the consequences of change. However, the trade
itself will experience the ultimate benefits of their heedless
indifference .... inspite of them and hopefully ..... without them.
They will not be missed.

 

[Norm Mugford]

Timely question Mr. Colombo:

It is my opinion that we have failed miserably in writing
standards for our own industry, mainly because we let
the NBFAA lead the way. They didn't, now we are faced with
the NFPA getting into the ball game. When we had the
opportunity, we should have pushed the NBFAA to take
charge. But, the "good ole boys" were more interested
in merging with the CSAA and anyone else that would
help their bottom line.

It is my opinion, they (NFPA) should stay the hell out
of security. Weather you're a fireman, a fire inspector,
or a fire system technician/installer, you know they are
the leaders in Fire standards and it should stay that way.

Beside, who determined that the NFPA would be as
good making security standards as they are at fire standards.
They don't have the background in security.

BTW, it is common knowledge and has been announced by
UL, that they will be driving this issue all the way to the
bank in support of NFPA getting into burg systems.
It will cost everyone..........just like UL is doing with
fire.

Norm Mugford
Vice-Chairman
Florida Department of Business and Professional Regulation
Electrical Contractors Licensing Board.

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Timely question Mr. Colombo...

If the proposed standards are intended to reduce false alarms, then local
and state governments have a reasonable interest in enforcing them. But if
the purpose is to set protection standards, that really isn't the business
of government. Private sector interests, such as underwriters, have already
done a good job promulgating performance minima for burglar alarms in the
form of UL standards. The fact that only a tiny fraction of burglar alarms
comply with UL is not an indicator of a need for more regulations. It is
simply evidence that most people and most firms are unwilling to spend the
money to install comprehensive protection. That is and should remain the
prerogative of individuals and companies who buy alarms -- not the state or
the community.

If performance standards are set by governent the cost of basic protection
is certain to grow beyond the reach of many consumers. The net effect will
be less protection for most people and more protection for a small segment
of society. Hmm. Sounds almost Republican... :^)

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Bob Worthy]

I would like to hear from those who are interested in the issue of NFPA
(National Fire Protection Association) and the creation of security
standards/codes: NFPA 730 and NFPA 731.

I'm especially interested in whether you believe a codified standard
consisting of protective mandates and installation practices is in the
best interest of the client and the security industry in general.

For those interested in my personal thoughts on this issue, feel free
to read it at
http://tpromo.com/secmis-priv2/wp-trackback.php/247

Thanks,

Al Colombo
www.securitymission.com

There are different reasons these groups write codes and standards and it
makes me wonder what is the insentive for this particular go around. Is it
false alarm prevention? The industry already has a good program and the
results are impressive. An Association that has been writing codes and
standards for the fight against loss of life and property from fires for,
how many years, now all of a sudden has the answers for the security
industry? With the way these were written, it is easy to say that they are a
little out tune with reality, which again makes me wonder what their
insentatives were to get this done without including the industry. Even if
the manufactures could comply, who is going to enforce this. In the fire
industry you have fire inspectors and third party verifyers, but who would
be the AHJ in the security world. The electrical inspector? They have
absolutely no knowledge of design and application for this diverse field.
Would it be the police department? They don't even want the dispatch
responsibility, let alone have the required knowledge. Seeing how this
industy is so diverse and not as cut dried as the fire industry, who is left
to be an AHJ? Could it be a third party verifier? NFPA themselves are not
going out in the public doing inspections. Hmmm.....so who is left out there
that is trying to make an absolute killing on holding everyone hostage until
they join their club. The same ones that are charging mega bucks each year,
so that you can get the **required** third party verification? I refuse to
mention their name out of total disgust for their motives. They have already
made it public that they are out to control the security industry in the
same fashion that they have been controlling the fire industry (a very
stupid egotistical statement). At who's expense, I ask? Unfortunately, these
type of things will continue to exist as long as the majority of the State
Associations, which are really the only voice for the majority of the
industry, has remained so complaisant and dependent on the "Johnny Come
Lately" actions of the NBFAA. I am afraid the NBFAA have earned the title of
"To Little To Late" on many issues over the past several years. The NFPA
should stick to what they do best and don't get into other areas that may be
related but yet so different. If in fact that I may just be right about who
the real driving force is, being that third party verifier, the NFPA should
realize that if you go to bed with dogs, you will wake up with fleas.

Bob4Secur

 

[Robert L. Bass]

but who would be the AHJ in the security

world. The electrical inspector?
Probably.

They have absolutely no knowledge of
design and application for this diverse field.

I suspect the idea, ill-formed as it may be, is that the AHJ could simply
read the code and suddenly become qualified to determine if an installation
is in compliance.

Would it be the police department?

In some towns the responding officers already issue advisories as to the
probable cause of a given false alarm. This is usually done without the
officers ever gaining entrance to the protected premises. One has to wonder
how they imagine they can tell from outside the house that there's a spider
inside a PIR motion detector.

They don't even want the dispatch responsibility,
let alone have the required knowledge....

Of course not, but if there's an opportunity to create another revenue
stream from the alarm industry, they might just try.

Seeing how this industy is so diverse and
not as cut dried as the fire industry, who
is left to be an AHJ? Could it be a third
party verifier? NFPA themselves are not
going out in the public doing inspections.
Hmmm.....so who is left out there...

Hmmm indeed. Can we say "UL"? Imagine the increase in revenue if UL,
through the aegis of NFPA could somehow trump the burglar alarm industry
with a requirement that all installations be issued a certificate. We're
probably talking $billions here.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Perhaps I'm a little cynical...

Nooooo! Not you.

 

[Bob Worthy]

Probably.

Except on a national basis, there is not even a permit requirement in most
areas and it would not be easy for the cities to start one. They don't have
the budget, manpower, software, etc. to administrate it so therefore the
code/standard would be collecting dust.

I suspect the idea, ill-formed as it may be, is that the AHJ could simply
read the code and suddenly become qualified to determine if an installation
is in compliance.

I suppose but what would that gain, which again brings me back to
questioning the insentive NFPA has to do it in the first place. The publics
best interest?

In some towns the responding officers already issue advisories as to the
probable cause of a given false alarm. This is usually done without the
officers ever gaining entrance to the protected premises. One has to wonder
how they imagine they can tell from outside the house that there's a spider
inside a PIR motion detector.

Again, no experience other than reading what someone has written.

Of course not, but if there's an opportunity to create another revenue
stream from the alarm industry, they might just try.

One might think that, however, the money collected doesn't go to the PD as
it should. It ends up in the general fund of the city. The PD struggles with
a twindling budget and general fund makes sure there is good fire works
display on the 4th. Go figure!

Hmmm indeed. Can we say "UL"? Imagine the increase in revenue if UL,
through the aegis of NFPA could somehow trump the burglar alarm industry
with a requirement that all installations be issued a certificate. We're
probably talking $billions here.

Bingo!! Doesn't take rocket science.

 

[mikey]

Perhaps I'm a little cynical, but my opinion is that the NFPA writes codes
and standards for one reason only, to sell code books.

Doug L

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
what a sleeper this guy is, every now and then, pow!

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Except on a national basis, there is not

even a permit requirement in most areas
and it would not be easy for the cities
to start one. They don't have the budget,
manpower, software, etc. to administrate
it so therefore the code/standard would
be collecting dust.

You may be right, Bob. However, it's the same situation with the NEC. In
places where code isn't enforced the NEC is unused. Places where it is
enforced the NEC (in whatever form it's adopted) is the law of the land.
The existence of a standard does not, in and of itself, create a law or an
agency to enforce it. States or communities that decide to use the standard
will do so. The above is not intended to imply that having NFPA write a new
standard will actually help much.

I suppose but what would that gain...

Dollars? :^)

which again brings me back to questioning the
insentive NFPA has to do it in the first place.
Dollars?

The publics best interest?

Maybe, but see above reply.

Again, no experience other than reading what
someone has written.

Sounds like the Vancouver Vicar.

One might think that, however, the money collected
doesn't go to the PD as it should. It ends up in the
general fund of the city...

True, but it's not the PD that writes local ordinances. It is the town
council and it's *their* budget that stands to gain.

The PD struggles with a twindling budget and
general fund makes sure there is good fire works
display on the 4th. Go figure!

Speaking of which, Sarasota has an incredible display each year. They fire
the rockets from an island (I think). The display is mirrored off the
harbor around all the boats at the marina. If we don't throw a party here
I'll take some photos for the gallery website.

Bingo!! Doesn't take rocket science.

Just as I always say, this isn't rocket science. :^)

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

=============================>
Bass Home Electronics
2291 Pine View Circle
Sarasota · Florida · 34231
877-722-8900 Sales & Tech Support
http://www.bassburglaralarms.com
=============================>

 

[no wires showing]

Remember spewing this nonsense?
18/2 STRANDED for a transformer? Your installations were so far from UL
it's comical. Almost as hysterical as that home-based "central station"
you had. Single tech motions, 22/2 for sirens, running without
liability insurance, etc, etc, etc....
You wouldn't know UL from U2.
You're still a jackass. What's amazing is that some of these ass
goblins still pay you any mind.
Do us a favor and go fishing with Scott Peterson.

Robert L. Bass Sep 12 2004, 4:22 pm show options

Newsgroups: alt.security.alarms
From: "Robert L. Bass" <[email protected]> - Find messages by
this author
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 16:22:57 -0400
Local: Sun,Sep 12 2004 4:22 pm
Subject: Re: Mystery false alarm the other night (all motions)?
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I wasn't referring to twisting the conductors during installation,
Robert.
I meant the flexing which occurs when an unsecured cable is moved.
I've
serviced transformers that had been repeatedly removed by homeowners
and
allowed to dangle from the cable to free up an outlet for vacuuming.
The
retaining screw had been discarded.

I suggest using stranded core for any cable which is not completely
secured
along it's length. In a fix you can get away with solid but it's not
ideal.
This also applies to exterior speaker connections which some installers
make
using ordinary (indoor!!!) quad cable. 18/2 stranded is far preferable
for
these as well as for the transformer.


Olson doesn't understand this stuff since he has never actually
installed
alarms.

 

[Robert L. Bass]

Remember spewing this nonsense?

Nope.

18/2 STRANDED for a transformer?

You have a problem with using 18/2 stranded wire for a plug-in transformer?

Your installations were so far from UL
it's comical.

You've probably never seen one of my installations.

Almost as hysterical as that home-based
"central station" you had...

Yes, I built my own central station. I bought a house from a doctor. Was a
perfect arrangement for a non-listed central station. The office space was
separated from the living area.

Single tech motions...

Until someone came up with dual-techs that was the only option available.

22/2 for sirens...

Nope. I never ran 22/2 for anything, much less for sirens.

running without liability insurance, etc, etc, etc....

You're making this stuff up as you go along, cracker.

 

[[email protected]]

NIck,

What about those in the security field who choose to do a substandard
job? Wouldn't a set of codified standards go a long way toward 1)
forcing these firms to do a better job, and 2) create a more equal
playing field for all within this industry when it comes to an
apples-to-apples bid?

Also, can I quote you in a story if I decide to write one?

Thanks,
Al Colombo, SSI

 

[[email protected]]

Rocky,

Can you give me some for instances where certain sensors work in one
location but not another? Also, can I quote any of what you have to
say in this regard if I do a story on it?

Thanks,
Al Colombo, SSI

 

[[email protected]]

Jim,

Can I quote some of what you just said if I decide to do a story on it?
I may leave some of the emotional parts out though . Thanks for
considering my question and going to such great lengths to answer.

Al

 

[[email protected]]

Norm,

Some good thoughts. In my opinion, it won't be the life safety AHJ who
will be in charge of enforcement of these security standards. Why, in
many municipalities, the people with knowledge of fire alarm detection
and such are no longer the real AHJ as it is--but rather their city or
county building department, the plans examiner, the electrical
inspector, all the above.

No, it won't be the FD that enforces and profits by NFPA 730 and 731.
It won't the the PD either. It's going to be local government on the
one hand, UL because of the third-party certification that will come
out of it, and it will be the code writing body.

Anyone care to comment on that, I'd surely like to hear both for and
against.

Norm, can I quote any portions of your thoughts as written if I write a
story on this?

Thanks so much,

Al

 

[[email protected]]

I really don't think it has anything to do with politics. It has
everything to do with profit potential, not only for the organizations
we are discussing, but also for every and any municipality and
governmental body that accepts and promotes the use of 730 and 731. Is
that your take or not?

Regarding UL, if memory serves me right, this organization is working
to recruit local AHJs to mandate UL certification for all fire alarm
installation companies. Do you think that the acceptance of these two
standards and the subsequent institutionalization of same will lead to
an effort by UL and others to do the same thing where it comes to
electronic security?

Can I quote you on any of your comments if I write a story on this?

Thanks,

Al