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NFPA 72 test

I operate a small family run alarm service company. We install and
service burglar alarms and related equipment, but up till now have only
"serviced" existing fire alarm equipment. We have worked on many
different types and are familiar with most electrical configuratuions.
We also service and are known by many area police and fire departments
and our company is well respected. Recently a good commercial customer
asked us to install door holders on existing fire alarm systems in 10
of his apartment buildings in a town we have never worked in. We showed
up for work with equipment in hand, called the fire department to place
the first system on test and were promptly informed that we would need
be "certified" to work in that town. This has never been required
before. To become certified you need to pass a 50 question multiple
choice test with a minimum 70% grade based on anything and apparently
everything contained in NFPA 72. If you fail the test they require that
you wait ten days before you're allowed to retake it.
It was very embarrassing to have to call my customer and tell him that
I would be reqiuired to take this test before being able to do this
job, however it will be much more embarrassing not to mention,
financially lethal if I were to fail it a number of times and have to
keep stalling him along and then subsequently lose this job and
possibly the account as well.
I have ordered a copy of NFPA72 and it should be here tomorrow, however
it is 235 pages and this seems like a monumental task to learn
everything in this book in just perhaps a week. Now I'm certain that I
can deal with circuits etc. but in service you don't get involved with
heights, placement, applications etc. You do repairs and replacement.
Basically you restore what is already there. I have been doing this for
years and I feel that when it comes to troubleshooting and repairing
things, I'm a good technician, but as far as knowing all the other
rules and remembering them all, I don't know.
Years ago I passed an FCC First Class Radio Telephone license test. I
did take a class but there were study guides available along with
practice exams. The guides and especially the sample test questions
were extremely helpful. I have inquired and there are no upcoming
classes planned for our area and I have not been able to locate any
kind of study guides of the type mentioned above either. Now I want to
stress that I'm not looking for a free ride here. If I pass this test
it will be on my own merits but this is a big account and it and quite
possibly our financial future could be placed in jeopardy if I cannot
get through this test and in a timely manner.
In leiu of reading through the entire book and trying to remember
everything I've read, would anyone have or know of any type of study
guides that would help me and perhaps know where I might obtain a copy
of a sample test so that I would at least know primarily what they
would most likely be looking for? My success on this test will mean a
lot to our family so I appreciate any advice and assistance offered.
Lenny.
 
M

Michael Baker

I have ordered a copy of NFPA72 and it should be here tomorrow, however
it is 235 pages and this seems like a monumental task to learn
everything in this book in just perhaps a week.

The body of the standard, the "shall" language, is about 100 pages.
Add a tab to each chapter. 1-11, and review a chapter each day before
your test.
Now I'm certain that I
can deal with circuits etc. but in service you don't get involved with
heights, placement, applications etc. You do repairs and replacement.
Basically you restore what is already there. I have been doing this for
years and I feel that when it comes to troubleshooting and repairing
things, I'm a good technician, but as far as knowing all the other
rules and remembering them all, I don't know.

If it's a closed-book test, I don't think that they will ask anything
too difficult.
Years ago I passed an FCC First Class Radio Telephone license test. I
did take a class but there were study guides available along with
practice exams. The guides and especially the sample test questions
were extremely helpful. I have inquired and there are no upcoming
classes planned for our area and I have not been able to locate any
kind of study guides of the type mentioned above either.

Where are you located?
Now I want to
stress that I'm not looking for a free ride here. If I pass this test
it will be on my own merits but this is a big account and it and quite
possibly our financial future could be placed in jeopardy if I cannot
get through this test and in a timely manner.
In leiu of reading through the entire book and trying to remember
everything I've read, would anyone have or know of any type of study
guides that would help me and perhaps know where I might obtain a copy
of a sample test so that I would at least know primarily what they
would most likely be looking for?

The test you are talking about is probably a local requirement. If
they don't have sample questions, you're out of luck.
My success on this test will mean a
lot to our family so I appreciate any advice and assistance offered.
Lenny.

I'm willing to help you as much as I can and I'm not traveling this
week, so give me a call at 503-657-8888, 8 a.m. - 5 p.m. pacific time.

Good luck,

Mike

--
Michael B. Baker, SET
Michael Baker & Associates, Inc.
PO Box 737
Gladstone, OR 97027-0737
503-657-8888 v
503-655-1014 f
ET News(r) http://www.etnews.org
 
R

Robert L Bass

it will be much more embarrassing not to mention,
financially lethal if I were to fail it a number of times and have to
keep stalling him along and then subsequently lose this job and
possibly the account as well.

The simplest solution may be to sub out the work on this project while you
prepare for the test. If you don't have a copy of NFPA72, you can order it
online in PDF format. I have it on my PC in Sarasota but not on the machine I'm
using at the moment.

Following is a link to order the code:
http://tinyurl.com/q9ev4

There's also a code handbook which you might want to order:
http://tinyurl.com/klar6

Best of luck.

--

Regards,
Robert L Bass

Bass Burglar Alarms
The Online DIY Store
http://www.BassBurglarAlarms.com
 
M

Mike Sokoly

[email protected] wrote:
I have ordered a copy of NFPA72 and it should be here tomorrow, however
it is 235 pages and this seems like a monumental task to learn
everything in this book in just perhaps a week. Now I'm certain that I
can deal with circuits etc. but in service you don't get involved with
heights, placement, applications etc. You do repairs and replacement.
Basically you restore what is already there. I have been doing this for
years and I feel that when it comes to troubleshooting and repairing
things, I'm a good technician, but as far as knowing all the other
rules and remembering them all, I don't know.

GET SOME TRAINING, EDUCATION, AND INSTRUCTION!
Just because you are handy, and have some limited knowledge in the
Security Field doesn't mean you "know" zip about Fire!
I'm a NY State Instructor and I tell my Students that Security is
"Psychology of the Perp and Artistry of the Installer". Fire Is "Science
and Physiolgy" Mixed with "Bookwork Code Knowledge" They're NOT the SAME.
You need to understand the theory and the requirements of not only the
equipment but the Code Requirements of the various jurisdictions you
work in whether they be Local, Federal or National: the Legal, Liability
and Safety Issues that affect what you're doing, Your responsibilities
to the Customer and His responsibilities- all this and more.
A DIY'er may read a book from Home Depot, successfully Install a duplex
receptacle, and It may even work- that doesn't mean he installed it
safely enough that it won't cause harm to Life and Property! Same goes
for Fire.
Education is a Must- Here in NY even with 60 Hrs of training and
Certification, only 16 Hours are FIRE! To me, thats not enough to
qualify you to install, maintain or service Fire Systems even if you
pass the 60Hr/4week course and take the "Walk-in" Alarm License Test at
the next opportunity! THERE IS A LEARNING CURVE!
At oue School, we've been thru this route- now that 15+ years have
passed since NY instituted a mandatory license-we've pretty much seen
all the "Alarm Dino's" that needed to get up to speed- now it's just
mainly 'newbies", employees who want to strike out on their own AND
MASTER ELECTRICIANS who think that they somehow qualify as "FIRE EXPERT"
because they pull wire and lay pipe!
Please do yourself a service and seek out the Local Training Center who
can help to educate you before you make a serious mistake!

(To all my co-installers and instructors-Thanks for letting me rant!)
 
N

Norm Mugford

CaptainVideo462002 Wrote:

"up till now have only "serviced" existing fire alarm equipment.
We have worked on many different types and are familiar with
most electrical configuratuions".

"I have ordered a copy of NFPA72 and it should be here tomorrow".

First of all, anyone who services fire alarms and doesn't have the latest
edition of NFPA 72 and NFPA 101, should not be working on
fire alarms. NFPA 72 & 101 are the "Bibles", (also know as
Life Safety Standards) we have to work with, along with many other
requirements for fire alarms. Your local fire inspector is only trying
to protect the public from unknowing and unexperienced fire alarm
contractors. And, from your post, I suspect you're one of them.

My recommendation is to keep to your video systems until you have the
knowledge and experience to properly maintain, install and service
fire alarm systems. It's not something you will learn overnight or in a
couple of weeks. The test you speak of is most likely the easy part.

BTW...Do you have the proper amounts of insurance to work on
fire alarm systems?

Norm Mugford
Chairman
Florida Department of Business & Professional Regulation
Electrical Contractors Licensing Board




I operate a small family run alarm service company. We install and
service burglar alarms and related equipment, but up till now have only
"serviced" existing fire alarm equipment. We have worked on many
different types and are familiar with most electrical configuratuions.
We also service and are known by many area police and fire departments
and our company is well respected. Recently a good commercial customer
asked us to install door holders on existing fire alarm systems in 10
of his apartment buildings in a town we have never worked in. We showed
up for work with equipment in hand, called the fire department to place
the first system on test and were promptly informed that we would need
be "certified" to work in that town. This has never been required
before. To become certified you need to pass a 50 question multiple
choice test with a minimum 70% grade based on anything and apparently
everything contained in NFPA 72. If you fail the test they require that
you wait ten days before you're allowed to retake it.
It was very embarrassing to have to call my customer and tell him that
I would be reqiuired to take this test before being able to do this
job, however it will be much more embarrassing not to mention,
financially lethal if I were to fail it a number of times and have to
keep stalling him along and then subsequently lose this job and
possibly the account as well.
I have ordered a copy of NFPA72 and it should be here tomorrow, however
it is 235 pages and this seems like a monumental task to learn
everything in this book in just perhaps a week. Now I'm certain that I
can deal with circuits etc. but in service you don't get involved with
heights, placement, applications etc. You do repairs and replacement.
Basically you restore what is already there. I have been doing this for
years and I feel that when it comes to troubleshooting and repairing
things, I'm a good technician, but as far as knowing all the other
rules and remembering them all, I don't know.
Years ago I passed an FCC First Class Radio Telephone license test. I
did take a class but there were study guides available along with
practice exams. The guides and especially the sample test questions
were extremely helpful. I have inquired and there are no upcoming
classes planned for our area and I have not been able to locate any
kind of study guides of the type mentioned above either. Now I want to
stress that I'm not looking for a free ride here. If I pass this test
it will be on my own merits but this is a big account and it and quite
possibly our financial future could be placed in jeopardy if I cannot
get through this test and in a timely manner.
In leiu of reading through the entire book and trying to remember
everything I've read, would anyone have or know of any type of study
guides that would help me and perhaps know where I might obtain a copy
of a sample test so that I would at least know primarily what they
would most likely be looking for? My success on this test will mean a
lot to our family so I appreciate any advice and assistance offered.
Lenny.


I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html
 
F

Frank Olson

I operate a small family run alarm service company. We install and
service burglar alarms and related equipment, but up till now have only
"serviced" existing fire alarm equipment. We have worked on many
different types and are familiar with most electrical configuratuions.
We also service and are known by many area police and fire departments
and our company is well respected. Recently a good commercial customer
asked us to install door holders on existing fire alarm systems in 10
of his apartment buildings in a town we have never worked in. We showed
up for work with equipment in hand, called the fire department to place
the first system on test and were promptly informed that we would need
be "certified" to work in that town. This has never been required
before. To become certified you need to pass a 50 question multiple
choice test with a minimum 70% grade based on anything and apparently
everything contained in NFPA 72. If you fail the test they require that
you wait ten days before you're allowed to retake it.
It was very embarrassing to have to call my customer and tell him that
I would be reqiuired to take this test before being able to do this
job, however it will be much more embarrassing not to mention,
financially lethal if I were to fail it a number of times and have to
keep stalling him along and then subsequently lose this job and
possibly the account as well.
I have ordered a copy of NFPA72 and it should be here tomorrow, however
it is 235 pages and this seems like a monumental task to learn
everything in this book in just perhaps a week. Now I'm certain that I
can deal with circuits etc. but in service you don't get involved with
heights, placement, applications etc. You do repairs and replacement.
Basically you restore what is already there. I have been doing this for
years and I feel that when it comes to troubleshooting and repairing
things, I'm a good technician, but as far as knowing all the other
rules and remembering them all, I don't know.
Years ago I passed an FCC First Class Radio Telephone license test. I
did take a class but there were study guides available along with
practice exams. The guides and especially the sample test questions
were extremely helpful. I have inquired and there are no upcoming
classes planned for our area and I have not been able to locate any
kind of study guides of the type mentioned above either. Now I want to
stress that I'm not looking for a free ride here. If I pass this test
it will be on my own merits but this is a big account and it and quite
possibly our financial future could be placed in jeopardy if I cannot
get through this test and in a timely manner.
In leiu of reading through the entire book and trying to remember
everything I've read, would anyone have or know of any type of study
guides that would help me and perhaps know where I might obtain a copy
of a sample test so that I would at least know primarily what they
would most likely be looking for? My success on this test will mean a
lot to our family so I appreciate any advice and assistance offered.
Lenny.


I'm in agreement with Mike Sokoly. Servicing a fire alarm system goes
beyond simple replacement of detectors and components. Does the fire
alarm system you're servicing have sufficient stand by capacity in the
event of a power failure? What are the requirements for this in the
different jurisdictions you work in? When you're replacing a pull
station, is it at the correct height. What about smoke detectors? Are
they correctly spaced? Installed to the manufacturer's specifications?
*Cross-listed* to the control? Fire alarm is *life safety*. You
can't take it lightly! In Canada, ULC provides the Installation
Standard (CAN524), the Verification Standard (CAN537), and the Testing
Standard (CAN536). You have to be familiar with all of these to
properly service a fire alarm system. Study NFPA 72, NFPA 101, and talk
to Michael Baker. Do yourself (and your customers) a bigger service by
becoming fully conversant with local codes and ordinances relating to
fire alarm as well as NFPA 72 and 101.

In my experience, servicing fire alarms also requires additional
insurance riders (another poster mentioned this). In many instances
you're also required to pull a permit if you're doing any work on one.

Good Luck!!

Frank Olson
http://www.yoursecuritysource.com
 
M

Mike Sokoly

Norm said:
"up till now have only "serviced" existing fire alarm equipment.
We have worked on many different types and are familiar with
most electrical configuratuions".

"I have ordered a copy of NFPA72 and it should be here tomorrow".

First of all, anyone who services fire alarms and doesn't have the latest
edition of NFPA 72 and NFPA 101, should not be working on
fire alarms. NFPA 72 & 101 are the "Bibles", (also know as
Life Safety Standards) we have to work with, along with many other
requirements for fire alarms. Your local fire inspector is only trying
to protect the public from unknowing and unexperienced fire alarm
contractors. And, from your post, I suspect you're one of them.

My recommendation is to keep to your video systems until you have the
knowledge and experience to properly maintain, install and service
fire alarm systems. It's not something you will learn overnight or in a
couple of weeks. The test you speak of is most likely the easy part.

BTW...Do you have the proper amounts of insurance to work on
fire alarm systems?

Norm Mugford
Chairman
Florida Department of Business & Professional Regulation
Electrical Contractors Licensing Board
Nuf Said Norm!
The individual has been "servicing" fire alarms and JUST NOW decides
to purchase NFPA 72? Misses the Point- in addition to your suggestions
he should have had NFPA 70, ADA, BOCA, IBC, Local Code Books, Sprinkler
and HVAC Codes, and more. Reading well does not make you qualified. I
suspect that he may not even know about E&O insurance-most guys I come
across don't!
I tell my students that it's a MINUMUM 6 months on the job before you
even Graduate from the "PIPE& WIRE DEGREE".
Mike Sokoly
 
D

Doug L

I'm not sure why it was embarrassing to have to tell your customer about the
requirements imposed on you by the City Fire Dept., it might become so if
you fail the test repeatedly, but most commercial customers seem to be
fairly sympathetic and understanding when it comes to dealing with City
Hall.

Read the book, take the test, if you fail it the first time at least you
will have an idea of what questions will be asked the next time., if you
fail it a second time or third time then maybe you should consider some
extra training or courses.

If it really is critical to your financial future then you could sub the
work out, even if it means taking a loss on the job.-

Most of the other comments regarding getting up to speed on the requirements
of Fire Alarms is correct, as failing to adhere to the local and national
codes could also be financially lethal to your company



Doug L
 
B

Bob Worthy

Mike Sokoly said:
Nuf Said Norm!
The individual has been "servicing" fire alarms and JUST NOW decides
to purchase NFPA 72? Misses the Point- in addition to your suggestions
he should have had NFPA 70, ADA, BOCA, IBC, Local Code Books, Sprinkler
and HVAC Codes, and more. Reading well does not make you qualified. I
suspect that he may not even know about E&O insurance-most guys I come
across don't!
I tell my students that it's a MINUMUM 6 months on the job before you
even Graduate from the "PIPE& WIRE DEGREE".
Mike Sokoly

What!!! Bass has sold *thousands* of fire alarms systems and thrives on the
thought that any primate with limited tool skills can install a fire alarm
system after a brief "how to" from his vast fire alarm experience and all
this in an hour or two over the phone. According to Bass, why would anyone
need to know so much about a fire alarm installations. He makes it sound so
simple.
 
M

Mike Sokoly

Come now Bob!
I don't THINK Robert fails to inform his customer's about the liabilties
they "might" inccur. I can buy a $3000.00 ODB II scanner from PepBoys-
Doesn't mean I know a damn about how to interpret it, let alone hook it
up without frying the car electronics!
 
B

Bob Worthy

Mike Sokoly said:
Come now Bob!
I don't THINK Robert fails to inform his customer's about the liabilties
they "might" inccur.

You mean if the place burns down the insurance company might not cover it? I
always wondered about his lack of info on required stamped certified plans,
permits, inspections (both electrical and fire), systems requiring central
station service, compatability issues, data sheets, proper wire gauges, NAC
power supplies, battery calcs. etc. Maybe that costs extra. And then again,
that would be designing a system and would require him to have a license. At
that I guess it would be considered a half-bASSED sale.
I can buy a $3000.00 ODB II scanner from PepBoys-
Doesn't mean I know a damn about how to interpret it, let alone hook it
up without frying the car electronics!

That is why the manufacturers have stopped warranting his resale equipment
to DIYers. They were receiving to much back as "bad out of box" and then
found out it was being sold to DIYers. They stopped his free shipping and
now he has to warranty the equipment he sells himself.
 
N

Nick Markowitz

I agree wih mike just servicing a fire system is not enough knowledge to be
even touching them .
NFPA 72 is pretty clear what is concidered proper training to work on Fire
systems and with Pa. now following ICC and NFPA the individual doing what he
is doing would not be permitted to service a system.
Several dealers have found out the hard way up here they can no longer
service systems.
Let alaone the liabiltys of not being properly trained.
and doing servicng and something go wrong.
 
F

FIRETEK

I wouldn't consider a large number of the technicians currently certified
through ASTTBC "properly trained" either. I think it's a matter for the
employer to sponsor an environment where upgrading and continuing education
is not only encouraged, but rewarded. For independent dealers, one of the
better introductions to the field is offered through the FireLite course.
Yes, it's biased towards their products, but I think you'll find a number of
systems out there have many features in common.

I've been reviewing the information regarding NICET and can't find much in
the way of benefit over the current training provided through ASTTBC and
BCIT. I'd like to see more in the way of "hands on" courses in
troubleshooting, proper installation, and testing being offered. There
currently isn't anything like this available (at least in BC).

If you're going to properly service a fire alarm system, you have to start
with the specific installation manual. If you've never worked on the system
before, you have to make certain that all the wiring is routed into the can
and terminated correctly. In most cases the manufacturer has laid this out,
along with a detailed list of smoke detectors that are compatible with the
control and the all important battery calculation. Of course the manual
won't address specific code issues which the examination "Captain Video" is
required to undertake will probably try to address. If the test is not
"open book", then the questions should focus on common acceptable practice
and some basic knowledge, not "in-depth" chapter and verse. It won't hurt
to study the codes in the local jurisdiction as well. Vancouver (for
instance) has it's own building code (called the Vancouver Building Bylaw).
There are some unique differences between it and the BC Building Code.

Regards,

Frank
 
M

Mike Sokoly

Thanks for the input Guys!
Its a good thread to read!
I wouldn't consider a large number of the technicians currently certified
through ASTTBC "properly trained" either.I think it's a matter for the
employer to sponsor an environment where upgrading and continuing education
is not only encouraged, but rewarded.
Amen- Out here in NY the State has always "reserved" the possibility of
a "Practical" addition to the License Test- but hasn't done it since 1992!
It is promising for me to see Local Alarm and Electrical Contractors
coming to our Training Center or sending their employees.
I confess I've been behind in implementing some sort of "Hands-On
Practical" Training Classes in Security and Fire -Like we have for
Apprentice and Master Electricians- BUT NOW I'm just waiting for State
Ed. Dept. to not muck up the process and get us approval- I've got 40+
Guys waiting!
For independent dealers, one of the
better introductions to the field is offered through the FireLite course.
Yes, it's biased towards their products, but I think you'll find a number of
systems out there have many features in common.
John Maccone is a top notch guy for Training at Firelite- Chirs
Bartholemew at GE- Mike Boyden at Silent Knight - Bill Marrera at Ademco-
All of the top Manufacturers give some good, basic, training.
If you're near any- the ADI EXPO's offer Top-notch Seminars as well
as Eastern Distributing, Tri-ED, And Elcor/Supply Dog!
I've been reviewing the information regarding NICET and can't find much in
the way of benefit over the current training provided through ASTTBC and
BCIT. I'd like to see more in the way of "hands on" courses in
troubleshooting, proper installation, and testing being offered.
I'm somewhat biased in agreement with others that post here- NICET
reminds me of UL- scamming for dollars- driven by politics. i have no
need for supporting them with an endorsment for them to start a
practical trainig program.
 
N

Nick Markowitz

Ran into perfect example today of untrained indivdual thinks he can install
fire alarms becuse he has serviced a few had 4208U zone boards which do not
support 2 wire smokes on an Ademco vista 32FB instead of the 4209U that are
required had zones programed wrong did not have resistors in right place. 3
pull stations were missed when wiring was installed etc etc etc.
2 of 3 buisnesses went 1 year with out fire protection becuse the individual
thought he could easily expand a system and did not have a clue.
 
N

Nick Markowitz

The guy who did the work owns he company so theres no excuse. he did not
know the product line and had no buisnes working with it till he did.
 
F

FIRETEK

He should be suspended by his balls, sprayed with whipping cream and lowered
into a cage of hungry cats.

Regards,

Frank
 
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