New laptop battery calibration question.

[David Farber]

I bought a laptop battery for my 10 year old Vaio laptop from an eBay
seller. It started up fine when I initially booted up my laptop. But when
the power meter was in the 52% remaining neighborhood, the system shutoff. I
don't mean hibernate, I mean it was like someone pulled the plug (if it were
running on AC power). I booted up again on AC power and let the battery
charge to 100% again, then I let it run off the battery with the AC power
removed. This time it shut off at about 72% power remaining. The best it
will ever do is stay on until about the 30% remaining mark. I contacted the
seller and this was the response,

"Please try calibrating it first by doing the following steps:

1. Charge the laptop up to its maximum capacity. Leave the device plugged
for two hours or more.
2. Disconnect the laptop from AC power. Disable any means in the Power
Options for the laptop to sleep or go into hibernation before the battery
charge is depleted to. Use or leave the laptop on until the battery is
depleted to 3% charge, in which the computer automatically enters
hibernation.
3. Leave the laptop in hibernation state for five hours or more.
4. Charge the laptop again up to its maximum capacity."

This seems a bit hokey to me. Why would a new battery need this much
attention?"

Thanks for your reply,

 

[Phil Allison]

"David Farber

I bought a laptop battery for my 10 year old Vaio laptop from an eBay
seller. It started up fine when I initially booted up my laptop. But when
the power meter was in the 52% remaining neighborhood, the system shutoff.
I don't mean hibernate, I mean it was like someone pulled the plug (if it
were running on AC power). I booted up again on AC power and let the
battery charge to 100% again, then I let it run off the battery with the
AC power removed. This time it shut off at about 72% power remaining.

** The laptop shuts off when the voltage drops below threshold - it has
no idea what power is actually remaining in the battery.

The best it will ever do is stay on until about the 30% remaining mark. I
contacted the seller and this was the response,

"Please try calibrating it first by doing the following steps:

1. Charge the laptop up to its maximum capacity. Leave the device plugged
for two hours or more.
2. Disconnect the laptop from AC power. Disable any means in the Power
Options for the laptop to sleep or go into hibernation before the battery
charge is depleted to. Use or leave the laptop on until the battery is
depleted to 3% charge, in which the computer automatically enters
hibernation.
3. Leave the laptop in hibernation state for five hours or more.
4. Charge the laptop again up to its maximum capacity."

This seems a bit hokey to me. Why would a new battery need this much
attention?"

** The procedure looks correct to re-calibrate the laptop to suit the new
battery.

Essentially, the laptop has a continuously running routine that estimates
the energy capacity of the battery by integrating time and current until
shut off is reached.

This estimate is then used to produce the "fuel gauge " you see.

Seems your new battery has less energy capacity (ie AHs ) than the old one.



.... Phil

 

[mike]

I bought a laptop battery for my 10 year old Vaio laptop from an eBay
seller. It started up fine when I initially booted up my laptop. But when
the power meter was in the 52% remaining neighborhood, the system shutoff. I
don't mean hibernate, I mean it was like someone pulled the plug (if it were
running on AC power). I booted up again on AC power and let the battery
charge to 100% again, then I let it run off the battery with the AC power
removed. This time it shut off at about 72% power remaining. The best it
will ever do is stay on until about the 30% remaining mark. I contacted the
seller and this was the response,

"Please try calibrating it first by doing the following steps:

1. Charge the laptop up to its maximum capacity. Leave the device plugged
for two hours or more.
2. Disconnect the laptop from AC power. Disable any means in the Power
Options for the laptop to sleep or go into hibernation before the battery
charge is depleted to. Use or leave the laptop on until the battery is
depleted to 3% charge, in which the computer automatically enters
hibernation.
3. Leave the laptop in hibernation state for five hours or more.
4. Charge the laptop again up to its maximum capacity."

This seems a bit hokey to me. Why would a new battery need this much
attention?"

Thanks for your reply,

It's not unusual for a weak battery to look normal to some high
charge level, then drop instantly to zero.
Depending on which version of which operating system, there should
be some settings in the power profile to instruct the computer
what to do when the battery is low.
Disable all of them so the system doesn't shutdown on an alarm
condition.
Run it till it quits. The 3% is a good number, but your battery
isn't calibrated, so I'd run it all the way down to zero.
Note, that on some batteries, running it to zero might kill it.
You may or may note be able to get the thing to calibrate.

I have several laptops that I just turn off the power monitor
and remember about how long it will run...then save my work frequently.

There's a battery utility in PCWizard
http://www.cpuid.com/softwares/pc-wizard.html
That attempts to determine the design charge, the current charge
level and the maximum level for THIS instance of the battery.
May not work on a laptop that old, but try it.

Laptop models change rapidly. For a laptop that old, you might
find that the only "new" batteries you can find on EBAY were
manufactured 10 years ago and stored in a container in Arizona.
Lithium batteries degrade even if you don't use 'em.

Paying retail doesn't guarantee a good battery, but the cheaper
it is, the less likely it is to be still good.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

"mike" wrote in message

It's not unusual for a weak battery to look normal to some high
charge level, then drop instantly to zero.

That would most likely happen if one (or two) of the battery's cells had very
low capacity.

Calibrating the battery is beside the point. If the computer shuts off
abruptly, it's because the battery has run down to the point where it can't
power the unit. This is not normal behavior. (Or more accurately, it is not
the intended behavior.)

As has been pointed out, the reason for calibrating the battery is so that you
can set reliable points for the unit going to sleep, hibernating, or warning
you it's about to shut down altogether.

It seems almost certain the battery you bought is defective, or its capacity
is substantially lower than that of the OEM battery.

What brand is it?

 

[David Farber]

"mike" wrote in message

That would most likely happen if one (or two) of the battery's cells
had very low capacity.

Calibrating the battery is beside the point. If the computer shuts off
abruptly, it's because the battery has run down to the point where it
can't power the unit. This is not normal behavior. (Or more
accurately, it is not the intended behavior.)

As has been pointed out, the reason for calibrating the battery is so
that you can set reliable points for the unit going to sleep,
hibernating, or warning you it's about to shut down altogether.

It seems almost certain the battery you bought is defective, or its
capacity is substantially lower than that of the OEM battery.

What brand is it?

There is no brand name on it. It says it's 14.8 volt, 5200 mAh. The part
number is, BP2NX. The capacity seems to be increasing now that I've charged
it fully and let it run out a few times. One internet hint I got was to let
it completely drain before recharging it. I did this by restarting the
computer every time it shut off. It finally shut it down when the meter
showed about 8% remaining and then I charged it fully again.

I'm in agreement with the folks that posted messages saying that this
battery has probably been sitting on the seller's shelf for quite a while
and it probably isn't in top notch condition. The files on my laptop which
are in the recovery partition are from 2004 so that gives you some idea of
how old this laptop is.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

"David Farber" wrote in message

There is no brand name on it. It says it's 14.8 volt, 5200 mAh.

About six months ago, I bought two Gmax batteries (one regular, one
high-capacity) for my HP notebook. They're a-workin' still. (Remember the MAD
ad parody?)

A brand name is no guarantee, but the lack of one is suspicious.

 

[Phil Allison]

"David Farber"

One internet hint I got was to let it completely drain before recharging
it. I did this by restarting the computer every time it shut off. It
finally shut it down when the meter showed about 8% remaining and then I
charged it fully again.

** FFS - the lap top has NO IDEA what the battery capacity is !!

Every time you run the battery down to the end point voltage, it
recalibrates the internally calculated "fuel gauge" .

What has likely happened is the cells have become unbalanced - ie each has
a different state of charge and capacity after being in storage for so long.

Cycling the pack helps restore cell to cell balance so you see some
improvement.



.... Phil

 

[David Farber]

"David Farber"



** FFS - the lap top has NO IDEA what the battery capacity is !!

Every time you run the battery down to the end point voltage, it
recalibrates the internally calculated "fuel gauge" .

What has likely happened is the cells have become unbalanced - ie
each has a different state of charge and capacity after being in
storage for so long.
Cycling the pack helps restore cell to cell balance so you see some
improvement.



... Phil

Hi Phil,

Let me see if I understand you correctly. The "fuel gauge" is in the battery
and the laptop is just reading what the "fuel gauge" is telling it. It takes
a few charge and discharge cycles for the "fuel gauge" to get an accurate
estimate of the remaining charge of the battery. Is that about right?

Thanks for your reply.

 

[mike]

Hi Phil,

Let me see if I understand you correctly. The "fuel gauge" is in the battery
and the laptop is just reading what the "fuel gauge" is telling it. It takes
a few charge and discharge cycles for the "fuel gauge" to get an accurate
estimate of the remaining charge of the battery. Is that about right?

Thanks for your reply.

In a perfect world, yes.
But the world ain't anywhere near perfect.
Battery gauges have changed significantly over the years.
You can get a relative reading on the battery charge level from
voltage...sorta.
You can get a better reading of capacity by counting electrons that
go in and out of the battery.
BUT
The primary failure mode for laptop batteries is internal series resistance.
You can have a lot of electrons left, but if the current peaks times
the ISR causes the terminal voltage to drop below the trigger level
of the internal protection circuitry or the laptop shutdown circuitry,
the thing will shut off.

I've done low current drain tests on batteries that wouldn't run a
laptop at all. I could get virtually all of the rated electrons
out. But the ISR wouldn't let the laptop run.

 

[Amanda Riphnykhazova]

I seem to remember pulling one of those Vaio laptops apart about 7 or 8 years ago to establish which internal cells are dying or dead and there is a long thin circuit in them which seems designed to prevent you using the battery at all when some of the individual cells are dead. You could replace all the dead cells you liked but the circuit still told the computer to tellyou to buy a new battery at the 50% or 75% mark. There is battery reconditioning software which seems to re-program this circuit when it actually isthe circuit and not totally dead cells doing the shutting off?

I tested by going to the POST screen and running the battery down as is recommended on this thread but with no software to tell anything what is goingon besides the basic BIOS. You might get better results now by booting off a Puppy Linux CD and installing Tuxmobil.org software to see what is going on.

Incidentally in my limited experience, I Have always found that batteries which are more than a few years old will suddenly drop from 50% charged to nothing in an instant. Of the batteries which drain all the way to nothing before taking whatever action they take (go into suspend or shut off dead) the Mac batteries do this better than others.

There is a myth out there concerning running a burst of reverse polarity 120/240v AC through the battery for a second or so to break up crystals builtup in the cell to rejuvenate it but I wouldn't count on this working: I put a question out on this forum a few days ago and no one seemed to think itwas anything other than a myth. There was however a site you could go to called battery rejuvenation dot com or something like that where you could send your batteries to England for guaranteed rejuvenation (or he wouldn't charge you) but I never tried it and don't know if he is still in business.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

"Amanda Riphnykhazova" wrote in message

The principle of a brief short or reverse charge to break up crystal formation
is old -- it goes back almost 50 years. Motorola produced such a charger for
Honeywell electronic-flash batteries, and (according to Modern Photography) it
worked. (It also occasionally caused the battery pack to explode, which Modern
never reported.)

Many lithium-cell battery packs have their own charging circuits. Putting 120V
AC on the pack, even for a fraction of a second, is likely to destroy those
circuits.

Your best option seems to be to learn from this experience, and buy a new
battery. You can then have the time to decide what you want to do with the bad
one.

 

[Amanda Riphnykhazova]

Your best option seems to be to learn from this experience, and buy a new

battery.

The problem with this is that these batteries can be a bit pricey, hence this sort of thread. When the computer is over one model old, the companies arrange for their battery prices to go stratospheric, possibly to goad usersinto buying new computers. After a few years of that, unless some indep has come in and started to produce them, most available batteries may well beold stock.

Possibly some users can chime in with evidence of any manufacturer which can be relied on to continue selling their batteries at faintly reasonable cost?

 

[Sjouke Burry]

The problem with this is that these batteries can be a bit pricey, hence this sort of thread. When the computer is over one model old, the companies arrange for their battery prices to go stratospheric, possibly to goad users into buying new computers. After a few years of that, unless some indep has come in and started to produce them, most available batteries may well be old stock.

Possibly some users can chime in with evidence of any manufacturer which can be relied on to continue selling their batteries at faintly reasonable cost?

Googling for laptop battery rebuild service
shows that there are several small firms rebuilding those packs.

 

[David Farber]

It's not unusual for a weak battery to look normal to some high
charge level, then drop instantly to zero.
Depending on which version of which operating system, there should
be some settings in the power profile to instruct the computer
what to do when the battery is low.
Disable all of them so the system doesn't shutdown on an alarm
condition.
Run it till it quits. The 3% is a good number, but your battery
isn't calibrated, so I'd run it all the way down to zero.
Note, that on some batteries, running it to zero might kill it.
You may or may note be able to get the thing to calibrate.

I have several laptops that I just turn off the power monitor
and remember about how long it will run...then save my work
frequently.
There's a battery utility in PCWizard
http://www.cpuid.com/softwares/pc-wizard.html
That attempts to determine the design charge, the current charge
level and the maximum level for THIS instance of the battery.
May not work on a laptop that old, but try it.

Laptop models change rapidly. For a laptop that old, you might
find that the only "new" batteries you can find on EBAY were
manufactured 10 years ago and stored in a container in Arizona.
Lithium batteries degrade even if you don't use 'em.

Paying retail doesn't guarantee a good battery, but the cheaper
it is, the less likely it is to be still good.

PC Wizard reports the battery specifications as follows with the AC adapter
disconnected and the battery fully charged:

<begin report>

General Information :
Nb. Battery : 1

Nb. Battery (max.) : 1

Battery Information :
Charge : High (98%)

Remaining time : 3:8:6 h
Place : Unspecified

Battery Information #1
Manufacturer : Sony Corp
Product Name : LXS12

Chemistry : Lead Acid

Technology : Rechargeable
Cycle Count : Unspecified
Designed Capacity : 65120 mWh
Full Charge Capacity : 59240 mWh
Capacity : 58170 mWh (98%)
Level : 9%

Rate : -18.57 mWh

Voltage : 5.01 V

UPS : No
<end report>

Is this information helpful?

Thanks for your reply.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

"David Farber" wrote in message

PC Wizard reports the battery specifications as follows, with
the AC adapter disconnected and the battery fully charged:

Chemistry : Lead Acid

Well, there's your problem. Lead acid batteries can last many years, but are
easily damaged by over-discharging them.

 

[mike]

PC Wizard reports the battery specifications as follows with the AC adapter
disconnected and the battery fully charged:

<begin report>

General Information :
Nb. Battery : 1

Nb. Battery (max.) : 1

Battery Information :
Charge : High (98%)

Remaining time : 3:8:6 h
Place : Unspecified

Battery Information #1
Manufacturer : Sony Corp
Product Name : LXS12

Chemistry : Lead Acid

Technology : Rechargeable
Cycle Count : Unspecified
Designed Capacity : 65120 mWh
Full Charge Capacity : 59240 mWh
Capacity : 58170 mWh (98%)
Level : 9%

Rate : -18.57 mWh

Voltage : 5.01 V

UPS : No
<end report>

Is this information helpful?

Looks like the program can't read/decode the chip in the battery.

 

[David Farber]

"David Farber" wrote in message


Well, there's your problem. Lead acid batteries can last many years,
but are easily damaged by over-discharging them.

Written on the battery is, "Rechargeable Li-ion Battery." That's an
interesting discrepancy.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[David Farber]

Try the battery data in HWINFO32:
<http://www.hwinfo.com/download.php>
If the battery supports the Smart Battery Specification, it should
produce the required numbers.
<http://sbs-forum.org/specs/>

I don't have a working antique laptop handy to see if it works any
better. Maybe later. Also, I've had problems reading the data from
various no-name replacement batteries purchased on eBay.

I ran the battery until it shut off. Then rebooted on AC power and this is
the report from HWINFO32 says:


[General Properties]
Device Name: LXS12
Manufacturer Name: Sony Corp.
Unique ID: 1763 Sony Corp.LXS12
Chemistry: Lithium Ion
Designed Capacity: 65120 mWh
Full Charged Capacity: 59240 mWh
Wear Level: 9.0 %
[Current Power Status]
Power Status: Charging On AC Power
Current Capacity: 12830 mWh (21.7 %)
Current Voltage: 4.617 V
Charge Rate: 15140 mW

Thanks for your reply.