Motor Speed Controller for 12v Brushed DC Motor (not PM) with speed regulation

[Richard]

I have a 12v Brushed DC motor (not Permanent Magnet) that takes about 2.5A
when heavily loaded.

I want to make (or buy a kit) that will drive the motor smoothly at slow
speeds, and more or less maintain rpm under load. Also bi-directional.

My input supply range is up to 20V DC at up to 5A.

I think I may need a PWM controller. Preferably *not* based on a micro
controller.

A speed controller allowing speed regulation seems to be the difficult bit
when searcing for a suitable device, circuit or kit.

Any motor experts here that knows what I can buy that would do the job?

Thanks.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Richard"

I have a 12v Brushed DC motor (not Permanent Magnet) that takes about 2.5A
when heavily loaded.

I want to make (or buy a kit) that will drive the motor smoothly at slow
speeds, and more or less maintain rpm under load. Also bi-directional.

** The solution to your problem is very simple.

Ditch the fucking pile of shit you have and get a suitable permanent magnet
motor.

You stupid PITA wanker.



...... Phil

 

[Richard]

"Richard"


** The solution to your problem is very simple.

Ditch the fucking pile of shit you have and get a suitable permanent
magnet motor.

You stupid PITA wanker.



..... Phil

Well, I am just "messing about" with an old non PM motor that I have and it
could be that seeking some speed regulation might be prohibitively
expensive - considering I am just messing about.

When it comes to stupidity, I think you will be your own accuser of being
that one day.

 

[Richard]

I have a 12v Brushed DC motor (not Permanent Magnet) that takes about 2.5A
when heavily loaded.

I want to make (or buy a kit) that will drive the motor smoothly at slow
speeds, and more or less maintain rpm under load. Also bi-directional.

My input supply range is up to 20V DC at up to 5A.

I think I may need a PWM controller. Preferably *not* based on a micro
controller.

A speed controller allowing speed regulation seems to be the difficult bit
when searcing for a suitable device, circuit or kit.

Any motor experts here that knows what I can buy that would do the job?

Thanks.

I'm just messing with an old motor. It's series wound. Would it be easier,
especially to get speed regulation, if I seperatedly energised the field
windings?

 

[Palindrome]

I have a 12v Brushed DC motor (not Permanent Magnet) that takes about
2.5A when heavily loaded.

I want to make (or buy a kit) that will drive the motor smoothly at slow
speeds, and more or less maintain rpm under load. Also bi-directional.

My input supply range is up to 20V DC at up to 5A.

I think I may need a PWM controller. Preferably *not* based on a micro
controller.

A speed controller allowing speed regulation seems to be the difficult
bit when searcing for a suitable device, circuit or kit.

Any motor experts here that knows what I can buy that would do the job?

Thanks.

http://www.quasarelectronics.com/3166v2-bidirectional-dc-motor-speed-controller-5-32vdc-10a.htm

 

[Richard]

http://www.quasarelectronics.com/3166v2-bidirectional-dc-motor-speed-controller-5-32vdc-10a.htm

Yes, that's good. I'm finding it hard though to find anything with speed
regulation or a circuit diagram incoproaring that. That seems to be most
difficult.

 

[Palindrome]

Yes, that's good. I'm finding it hard though to find anything with speed
regulation or a circuit diagram incoproaring that. That seems to be most
difficult.

Well, yes, a closed loop controller will (generally) be more "difficult"
than an open-loop one.

The circuit in the reference provided is fairly easy to modify to allow
for proportional control. The demanded speed is available as an analogue
voltage. It should be fairly easy to produce an analogue voltage
dependent on actual speed. Using the difference as the input to the PWM
waveform generator will give you proportional control.

You can then complicate things, say to reduce overshoot, as needed. Half
a dozen op amps, in total, should do it nicely.

However, you really need to have a very good reason for going for an
analogue electronics solution, for a problem that lends itself so well
to a digital one. I don't know what you have against micro controllers..

 

[Richard]

Well, yes, a closed loop controller will (generally) be more "difficult"
than an open-loop one.

The circuit in the reference provided is fairly easy to modify to allow
for proportional control. The demanded speed is available as an analogue
voltage. It should be fairly easy to produce an analogue voltage dependent
on actual speed. Using the difference as the input to the PWM waveform
generator will give you proportional control.

You can then complicate things, say to reduce overshoot, as needed. Half a
dozen op amps, in total, should do it nicely.

However, you really need to have a very good reason for going for an
analogue electronics solution, for a problem that lends itself so well to
a digital one. I don't know what you have against micro controllers..

I'm on a learning curve here, because I'm not an electronic engineer.

I've learned (AN905) that you cannot achieve precise speed control with
series wound brushed DC motors. This is the type of motor that I have.

I believe that I'd have to seperately excite the field windings of my motor
to make the motor somewhat equivalent to a PM DC motor.

I don't have anything against micro controllers. I was thinking things might
be unecessarily complex if I used one. But, as I say, I'm not an electronic
engineer.

 

[Palindrome]

I'm on a learning curve here, because I'm not an electronic engineer.

I've learned (AN905) that you cannot achieve precise speed control with
series wound brushed DC motors. This is the type of motor that I have.

I believe that I'd have to seperately excite the field windings of my motor
to make the motor somewhat equivalent to a PM DC motor.

I don't have anything against micro controllers. I was thinking things
might
be unecessarily complex if I used one. But, as I say, I'm not an
electronic engineer.

One of the advantages of a microcontroller solution is that you can
design-in much more complex control algorithms than is practical using
analogue electronics. For the experimental, non electronics engineer,
digital has many advantages - not least being the ease with which you
can change timing constants or even the entire control system without
touching the hardware at all.

Speed control is a *control engineering* problem - not an electronics
one. The solutions tend to involve lots and lots of mathematics. Which
computers, eg microcontrollers, are good at.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Palindrome"

http://www.quasarelectronics.com/3166v2-bidirectional-dc-motor-speed-controller-5-32vdc-10a.htm

** That controller is for permanent magnet motors.



...... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"Richard"

"Phil Allison"


Well, I am just "messing about" with an old non PM motor that I have

** Bin it - you are wasting your and our time.

Piss head.


....... Phil

 

[Palindrome]

"Palindrome"


** That controller is for permanent magnet motors.

It will probably "do the job" for his motor, once the connection changes
needed to allow it to be made bi-directional have been done and the
field winding has been adequately catered for. The OP is experimenting
with speed control, not trying to meet a particular detailed
specification (IIUC).

What the brush gear will make of operating in the reverse direction to
that for which it was designed is also a factor - but again, the OP is
only experimenting.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Palindrome"

It will probably "do the job" for his motor, once the connection changes
needed to allow it to be made bi-directional have been done and the field
winding has been adequately catered for. The OP is experimenting with
speed control, not trying to meet a particular detailed specification
(IIUC).

** Got any advice for turning sows ears into silk purses ???

Maybe you can write us some code for it ?

What the brush gear will make of operating in the reverse direction to
that for which it was designed is also a factor - but again, the OP is
only experimenting.

** I see your forte is instructing wankers in the art of wanking.

Bet you think that is doing a public service.

Wot an imbecile.



...... Phil

 

[MakeNoAttemptToAdjustYourSet]

I'm just messing with an old motor. It's series wound. Would it be easier,
especially to get speed regulation, if I seperatedly energised the field
windings?

http://www.amazon.com/Currie-eZip-F...e=UTF8&s=sporting-goods&qid=1232424693&sr=1-3

http://www.amazon.com/s/qid=1232424...n:3375251,p_4:Currie+Technologies&sort=-price

Remove motor. Remove throttle actuator hand grip device. Remove Power
Switch. Remove charging connector. Remove battery pack. Remove motor
controller. Remove drive train segments.


Installation:

Adapt and install drive train segments. Adapt and attach motor
securely. Mount motor controller. Mount battery pack. Mount Charging
connector. Mount Power Switch. Attach throttle actuator hand grip
device.

Drive away. 12 mile range... more if you assist. Convert a bike.

 

[Richard]

One of the advantages of a microcontroller solution is that you can
design-in much more complex control algorithms than is practical using
analogue electronics. For the experimental, non electronics engineer,
digital has many advantages - not least being the ease with which you can
change timing constants or even the entire control system without touching
the hardware at all.

Speed control is a *control engineering* problem - not an electronics one.
The solutions tend to involve lots and lots of mathematics. Which
computers, eg microcontrollers, are good at.

Okay, but is it not the case that I'd have to change speed using commands
from my PC?

http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/00893a.pdf

But can I use a micro controller that stands alone, where I can set speed
with a potentiometer?

 

[Palindrome]

Richard wrote:

Okay, but is it not the case that I'd have to change speed using commands
from my PC?

Not necessarily, see below.

http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/00893a.pdf

But can I use a micro controller that stands alone, where I can set speed
with a potentiometer?

In the example that you chose above, an MCP6526 is used to convert the
motor current and motor speed analogue inputs and present them to the
PIC. The MCP6526 has 4 unused analogue inputs - one of which could
connected to the wiper of your speed setting potentiometer.

Alternatively, many PICs have built-in A/D converters, so don't need a
device like the MCP6526 at all.

But, why use a pot? They make sense when used with analogue electronics,
of course. But, with a digital system, you can use BCD switches,
"up/down" buttons + a digital display, etc..

 

[Rich]

Richard wrote:


Not necessarily, see below.
In the example that you chose above, an MCP6526 is used to convert the
motor current and motor speed analogue inputs and present them to the PIC.
The MCP6526 has 4 unused analogue inputs - one of which could connected to
the wiper of your speed setting potentiometer.

Alternatively, many PICs have built-in A/D converters, so don't need a
device like the MCP6526 at all.

But, why use a pot? They make sense when used with analogue electronics,
of course. But, with a digital system, you can use BCD switches, "up/down"
buttons + a digital display, etc..

I agree.

There are at least 3 options:

1 Analogue using pot or "up/down" buttons.

2 Digital, control only thru PC.

3 Digital using pot or "up/down" buttons.

Either 1 or 3 would do. Perhaps 3 would be the choice of most.

Actually having a rpm readout would be fantastic. Yes, I'd like that.

But, I've not yet found a kit or a diagram to realise say option 1 or 3.
Kits about but hard to find ones with speed regulation. And how many offer
rpm readout.

What I'd like ought to be piece of cake with all these sophisticated IC's,
but I am out of my depth unless I find a kit or a product.

I percieve that perhaps were in the realm of speed conntroller kit
modification.

 

[Richard]

I said:

But, I've not yet found a kit or a diagram to realise say option 1 or 3.
Kits about but hard to find ones with speed regulation. And how many offer
rpm readout.

What I'd like ought to be piece of cake with all these sophisticated IC's,
but I am out of my depth unless I find a kit or a product.

I percieve that perhaps were in the realm of speed conntroller kit
modification.

Tachometer can be a seperate project. No need to be part of the speed
controller.

If I did not want speed regulation, it's just a matter of sourcing a kit.
But it seems to me that once speed regulation is required there just ain't
any kits about. But, perhaps some kits are capable of mofification to cater
for speed regulation. But as a techical ecercise that's beyond me.

So, I look for speed controller circuits that incorporate speed regulation.
But I don't want to control speed from my PC.

 

[Richard]

Richard wrote:


Not necessarily, see below.
In the example that you chose above, an MCP6526 is used to convert the
motor current and motor speed analogue inputs and present them to the PIC.
The MCP6526 has 4 unused analogue inputs - one of which could connected to
the wiper of your speed setting potentiometer.

Alternatively, many PICs have built-in A/D converters, so don't need a
device like the MCP6526 at all.

But, why use a pot? They make sense when used with analogue electronics,
of course. But, with a digital system, you can use BCD switches, "up/down"
buttons + a digital display, etc..

My enquiry is perhaps more suited to a model makers or a robotics person. It
needs someome who actually has hands on experience or is is familiar with
making speed controllers. Someone with the hardware in posession.

Thanks for the help anyway. Rich