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mosfet diode

Hi :)
You could look up the MOSFET's data sheet, which will usually include an equivalent diagram like the one attached. This diagram is for the FQP50N06, which happens to be the first that came up on google.
You'll see from the diagram that a diode exists between source and drain. This diode is integral to the component, and is an ordinary diode in other respects - it is a Si diode with the usual 0.6V conduction threshold.

Mark
 

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hevans1944

Hop - AC8NS
You are probably thinking of MOSFETs used as synchronous switches for rectification. The advantage is the very low voltage drop across the device when is is on, and the high impedance when it is off, meaning the MOSFET dissipates very little power compared to an ordinary diode rectifier. The disadvantage is the more complicated circuitry required to achieve synchronous rectification.
 
with MOSFETs and some BJTs (ones with built in diodes), I have sometimes wondered how much current they can carry relative to the rated value of the transistor.

say, if you have a transistor rated for 5 amps continuous, can its diode also run 5 amps continuous?... or more, or less.

the data sheets seem to make no mention of this.


well, and another issue:
30A MOSFETs (such as the IRF540N) seem to get hot running well short of 30A (ex: when running only about 5A), can they actually handle this much current?... (or is it more that it requires a fairly severe heat sink?...).

more so when the transistor legs are fairly thin (vs the type of wire that would be needed for these current draws).

side note: Vgs used for switching is often around 12v.


saw a board (for running a DC motor) recently which could run a 40 amp load, noted that they were doing it using 12x 6 amp MOSFETs, rather than a smaller number of larger MOSFETs.

the board had been designed such that the transistors would fit into a heat-sink consisting of an aluminum block with slots in one side (for the transistors and some thermal paste to fit into), and some fins carved on the other.

but, in this case, why not use some cheaper BJTs?... (say, throwing TIP122's at the problem?... or using a TIP120 to drive a bank of parallel MJE3055T's with external flyback diodes).

more so, as it seems like the BJTs are a little more robust IME?... (seems like you can beat on them a little harder without them failing).
 
but, in this case, why not use some cheaper BJTs?... (say, throwing TIP122's at the problem?... or using a TIP120 to drive a bank of parallel MJE3055T's with external flyback diodes).

more so, as it seems like the BJTs are a little more robust IME?... (seems like you can beat on them a little harder without them failing).
BJTs with similar current carrying capacity will typically have a much larger voltage drop and hence power dissipation then an appropriately sized MOSFET when used is switching applications.

When use in the linear region, the two will have the same power dissipation, and here BJTs are actually preferred.

Bob
 
BJTs with similar current carrying capacity will typically have a much larger voltage drop and hence power dissipation then an appropriately sized MOSFET when used is switching applications.

When use in the linear region, the two will have the same power dissipation, and here BJTs are actually preferred.

Bob

I was mostly noticing that, provided that enough power is provided to fully switch them, there didn't seem to be huge difference in how hot they get between MOSFETs and BJTs (for similar amounts of amperage).


however, if not enough base current is supplied to the BJT, it gets very hot fairly quickly, in addition to not supplying full power to the load. this was a bit of a problem with my older circuits, until I started realizing this and taking it more into account.

likewise, if too much base current is supplied, it also gets hot, and seems prone to get stuck in the "on" state (often temporarily, sometimes permanent), so there is a need to make sure it doesn't get fed excessive amounts of current (but still has plenty of current for switching).

provided this, and avoiding overly large voltage spikes, they seem to do ok.


the MOSFETs seem to be more easily damaged by smaller voltage spikes and by misbehaved loads, and are basically dead if the gate-to-source voltage goes out of range (say, +/- 20v), which can become a problem for some driver designs if the load operates at a higher voltage (say, 24 or 36 volts), or if the control rail is subjected to an elevated voltage (say, if the 12v control rail is for whatever reason briefly exposed to 24 or 36 volts).

apparently, the type of MOSFETs used in the commercially made motor-driver board had also included built-in gate-to-source TVS diodes, possibly for these reasons.

in either case though, if a big heat sink and a cooling fan is needed to deal with a load, it doesn't seem like a big difference.


when using BJTs for analog current limiting though (for a driver controlled via a potentiometer): yeah... built a driver which uses point-to-point wiring and the wiring is covered in silicone caulk and the thing runs submerged in water (in a PET plastic bottle), and when running a load, gets hot enough that the water starts boiling off the transistors...

the pot has a high enough resistance though that it doesn't even reach full power (couldn't think up a good solution, ideally would need a pot with a larger value range, say, 1k to 100k or something). had partly considered adding an "overdrive" switch (connects up a resistor, or another pot driving another transistor, vs just shorting the pot for "full power").

but, if water starts boiling at 15 amps (w/o shorting the pot), what does it look like at 30?... maybe more epic boiling?... (guess it is however much boiling you can expect from around 700W or similar...).

(FIX: probably wont be seeing 700W under normal conditions, and my thinking is that I would probably see a fair bit more vigorous boiling, vs a relatively small stream of rising bubbles...).


this was a limiter I had built mostly for higher-power testing, namely when running things off lead-acid batteries, where I still wanted some level of control, vs just hooking whatever directly up to the batteries, where I potentially have several hundred amps going through whatever, where if something goes wrong in the electronics stuff basically just straight-up explodes... (well, vs just more casually spewing smoke and fire... grr...).

I divide some of my testing into several stages:
low power: variable power supply, often at lowered voltage and maybe limiting amperage (below the 5A imposed by the variable supply);
medium/high power: lead-acid batteries, current limiting via the driver above (done only occasionally, and this is where stuff often blows up);
full power: lead-acid batteries used with no regulation, rarely done.

have considered possibly making a higher-power power supply using a big transformer, but would need some parts I don't currently have to make it worthwhile (vs the current setup with using lead-acid batteries).
 
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hevans1944

Hop - AC8NS
There is a huge difference in effective on-resistance between a BJT and a MOSFET of comparable power rating. The saturation voltage of a power BJT can be a few tenths of a volt, but the on-resistance of the MOSFET channel can be milliohms. This translates, generally, into lower power dissipation for the same collector current and drain current. It may be one of the reasons Class-D amplifiers became so popular, despite the problems of filtering out the high switching frequencies at the load.

But we were discussing how to use a MOSFET as a diode, not the difference between using a MOSFET and a BJT for that purpose...
 
There is a huge difference in effective on-resistance between a BJT and a MOSFET of comparable power rating. The saturation voltage of a power BJT can be a few tenths of a volt, but the on-resistance of the MOSFET channel can be milliohms. This translates, generally, into lower power dissipation for the same collector current and drain current. It may be one of the reasons Class-D amplifiers became so popular, despite the problems of filtering out the high switching frequencies at the load.

But we were discussing how to use a MOSFET as a diode, not the difference between using a MOSFET and a BJT for that purpose...

yes, ok.

in both cases (BJT and MOSFET), was assuming driving them using PWM, where the heating doesn't seem to be too bad for either of them (vs controlling them with analog, where serious heat results). (also the BJTs are cheaper, at least per-transistor...).

went off on a tangent a bit though... not so good about things like topic.
 
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hevans1944

Hop - AC8NS
@BGB Well, maybe a little bit tangent, but I can see where you are coming from. I plan to use either BJTs or MOSFETs to drive small stepper motors with PWM and current feedback to control the PWM duty cycle. There are H-Bridge ICs that make this a no-brainer, at least for currents less than a few amperes. Most amateur radio HF rigs (below 30 MHz or so) use MOSFET output "finals" but these are operating in the linear region not in switch-mode. Before that, BJTs were somewhat popular (if you could afford high-frequency BJTs) but vacuum tubes are still the go-to device for power much above 200 watts or so. Sadly, most of the vacuum tube business has migrated to Brazil and Russia, with the Chinese hurrying to play catch up.

As far as synchronous rectifiers are concerned, these are mainly used for high-power, high-current, rectification at a single power line frequency, 60 Hz in the States and 50 Hz nearly everywhere else. They are also used in switching converters operating at a few kilohertz.

There is a large world-wide market in AC-to-DC-to-AC conversion for power transmission over long distances. There are very good reasons to generate electrical power as three-phase AC at moderately high voltages, transform this up to the megavolt range, and then rectify to DC for long distance power transmission. At the other end, the DC is inverted to three-phase AC, again at moderately high voltages, and fed to distribution transformers for delivery to factories and homes. Here is a somewhat self-serving overview of the infrastructure from Siemens point of view. Google Pacific DC Intertie for information on what is going on in the United States. Most of the early work, including the construction of the Pacific DC Intertie, was performed by the Swedish international firm ABB.

DC transmission has some serious advantages when a few thousand megawatts of power must be moved over long distances. I am no expert in this field, but it is my understanding that currently IGBTs and optically-triggered triacs are carrying the burden of high-voltage synchronous rectification and DC inversion, replacing mercury-vapor rectifiers and thyratrons that were used previously. I think MOSFETs (and perhaps gallium arsenide photo-conductive solid-state switches) have the potential to be scaled up to satisfy the same high-voltage, high-current, switching applications. This hasn't happened yet, but there is certainly interest there. Meanwhile, MOSFETs are already popular in more modest power applications as highly efficient synchronous rectifiers.

As far as current technology is concerned, I will continue to use whatever gives me the most bang for the buck, trying real hard not to blow things up.

Hop
 
@hevans1944

yeah. I had been using some Darlingtons (TIP122 and TIP127) for driving some small steppers. seems to work ok. when I got them online, I got them for about $0.25/ea. noted that there is some variability, and have seen prices for them a bit higher as well.

had tried using a L298, but it blew up, and I figured the transistors were much less likely to blow up.

smaller than this, I have some 2N2222 transistors, but these would probably blow up (they would be running several times their rated values).

I also have a lot of MJE3055T's right now, which were about $0.15/ea. pros are they are rated for around 8 or 10 amps continuous (datasheets disagree here), and haven't yet blown any of these up. drawback is that they lack a built-in diode, and require a bit of current to drive.

2N2222+3055T Darlington, works pretty good. parallel 3055T's require bigger drive transistors though (ex: a TIP122, or another 3055T).

had looked into IGBT's, but haven't gotten any yet. many are high-voltage low-current, but have seen some moderate-voltage high current ones (more interesting personally, had wondered how well behaved some 300V 180A IGBTs are). downside is mostly cost (though, still probably cheaper for large loads than throwing a bunch of lower-rating BJTs or MOSFETs at it).

IGBTs seemed to be cheaper than MOSFETs for large-amperage cases (though there is the hassle or skipping over all the high-voltage low-amperage IGBTs, which seem to be the majority here).


I have before wondered about vacuum tubes, like how well they could work in a low-voltage high-amperage mobile application (such as PWM switching for an electric motor in a small EV). a lot of motor-control stuff traditionally uses contactors, but they are generally far too slow for PWM (typical PWM is kHz range, a typical contactor is Hz at best).

however, what little I have looked into it, implies IGBTs would likely be better than tubes for motor switching via PWM (IGBTs give more amperage for cheaper).


( decided to leave out a bunch of stuff about heating, cooling, and heat-sinks for transistors ).
 
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hevans1944

Hop - AC8NS
I have never had an opportunity to play with IGBTs either, but may do so if I can find some for less than a dollar with a few tens of amperes current capability at 200 to 300 V or so. It's a toss-up for me whether an IGBT is better or worse than a comparably rated MOSFET. I think the IGBT might be a little more tolerant of transients, but this is just a "gut" feeling. I like the venerable 2N3055 NPN power transistor and have a few dozen stored away somewhere. They aren't very "efficient" but they are damn near indestructible. There is also a complimentary PNP equivalent, but I don't remember the part number. These were way popular back in the day for building inexpensive stereo power amplifiers. Beware of "modern" versions; I hear they aren't built to the same specs as the originals. Somewhere I have a massive forced-air heatsink just waiting for a high-power project. I think I salvaged this from a scrapped monster power supply many years ago. A standard muffin fan mounts directly to the end of the heatsink, which has a hollow interior. Should be good to dissipate a few thousand watts of heat energy, maybe warm up my basement workshop.

Years ago we used 2N2222 in the metal case as a temperature sensor for cold-junction compensation of type K thermocouples. It fit in the little holes on the bottom side of a barrier strip to which the TC leads were connected on the top side. Worked okay at the time (1960s), but there are better ways to do it today. So much of my "buried treasure" is either forgotten or obsolete now. <sigh> I unearthed a Burroughs beam-switching decade counter tube the other day:
bd401sm.jpg

About the only thing useful about it is the permanent magnet, but even that is a pale shade compared to what you can find inside a discarded hard disk drive. I'll keep it as a memento of forgotten technology, maybe mount it for display on a shelf in the living room, next to a 4CX250B power tetrode I was going to use to build a ham radio transmitter, but never did. Air-cooled ceramic sockets cost a fortune.
 
@hevans1944 the 2N3055 looks a bit (specs wise) like the MJE3055T, just using TO-3 packaging rather than TO-220, and with a higher amperage rating.


likewise, the 2N2222's I have are in the TO-92 packaging.

I had also wondered about using small transistors as temperature-sensors, say, if one glues one onto a motor, then maybe uses the gain or similar to detect if the motor is running hot.

yes, HDD magnets are nice, though sadly in a slightly awkward shape. small neodymium magnets also exist, and seem to be used a lot in peoples' motor hobby hand-built motor and generator projects, though they are kind of expensive.

at least hypothetically, I have considered the specifics of making steel and ferrite magnets, but the need for a high-temperature oven/kiln is a problem (not likely practical short of trying to manufacture motors). well, and you also need to build the kiln between a pair of big electromagnets.

ADD: ok, you can apparently also have the electromagnet used when molding the magnets, with a more conventional kiln being used for firing them. this could allow using a much smaller electromagnet, but could potentially reduce magnet strength.
 
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Seems we've veered well off the original topic... :)

hevans1944, I think you should build a project that uses that Burroughs beam-switching decade counter tube. :)

Back on the original topic, since the integral diode of a MOSFET is part of the body that comprises the source and drain where conduction occurs normally when the transistor is "on", I would think the diode would have a similar maximum current rating to the transistor's max Ids. However, due to the diode's voltage drop, there will be more power dissipated so the transistor would run hotter carrying a large current through the body diode than when the transistor is in saturation (fully on). So, dissipation may be the limiting factor rather than the absolute maximum Ids current.
 

hevans1944

Hop - AC8NS
[QUOTE="kpatz, post: 1652292, member: 34552" ... hevans1944, I think you should build a project that uses that Burroughs beam-switching decade counter tube. :) ... .[/QUOTE]
Not likely! Back in the day (1960s), the Burroughs tube not only counted in decimal it also directly drove a Nixie-tube neon numeric display. I would need at least four or five more of them, plus the Nixie tubes, to make this a worthwhile display of antique technology. IIRC, the maximum counting rate is rather modest... one megahertz comes to mind... so it isn't even useful as a pre-scaler. Makes a nice paper weight and conversation piece though.:D
 
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