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measuring distance between two cars using infrared circuits

hello,
i want to construct a circuit which will be able to measure distance
between two moving cars.The two cars are needed to maintain a fixed
distance between each other.
if the distance between them increases or decreases the circuit
should be able to detect this change and notify the amount of change
in the distance to both cars.
i want to construct this circuit using infrared LEDS ,so if any one
can help me out with this(circuit idea) please mail it to me .
 
A

Anthony Fremont

hello,
i want to construct a circuit which will be able to measure distance
between two moving cars.The two cars are needed to maintain a fixed
distance between each other.
if the distance between them increases or decreases the circuit
should be able to detect this change and notify the amount of change
in the distance to both cars.
i want to construct this circuit using infrared LEDS ,so if any one
can help me out with this(circuit idea) please mail it to me .

Usenet is not a write-only medium. You post your questions here and you
get your answers here, otherwise the only person that gains anything
from it is you. That's not the way a public forum works. If you'd
rather work this issue via e-mail, then feel free to e-mail your
question to as many people as you like.

Now to the question at hand. You need to specify the distance, weather,
and other operating conditions that you expect this to work in. You are
not likely to get this to work in the bright sun without allot of
effort.
 
A

Andrew Holme

hello,
i want to construct a circuit which will be able to measure distance
between two moving cars.The two cars are needed to maintain a fixed
distance between each other.
if the distance between them increases or decreases the circuit
should be able to detect this change and notify the amount of change
in the distance to both cars.
i want to construct this circuit using infrared LEDS ,so if any one
can help me out with this(circuit idea) please mail it to me .

It might be easier with microwaves than infra-red:

Measure relative velocity using the Doppler effect. By integrating
this, you get a running estimate of the change in distance. Weird
things might happen when you go around corners!

Unfortunately, absolute measurement of short distances using
electromagnetic waves is difficult / impossible due to the speed of
light.
 
P

peterken

Andrew Holme said:
It might be easier with microwaves than infra-red:

Measure relative velocity using the Doppler effect. By integrating
this, you get a running estimate of the change in distance. Weird
things might happen when you go around corners!

Unfortunately, absolute measurement of short distances using
electromagnetic waves is difficult / impossible due to the speed of
light.

microwave is indeed more reliable
using a bursting microwave gives an indication of absolute distance and
speed between objects

timing between start of burst and start of reception of it is a measure for
absolute distance
doppler frequency gives relative speed
 
K

Keith Williams

The SoL is a nanosecond per foot. A nanosecond isn't a particularly
difficult thing to measure. Gate delays of modern semiconductor
processes are in the few picosecond range.
microwave is indeed more reliable
using a bursting microwave gives an indication of absolute distance and
speed between objects

timing between start of burst and start of reception of it is a measure for
absolute distance
doppler frequency gives relative speed

No need for doppler measurements. Differentiate the distance
calculations.
 
R

Richard Harris

I can't help you with an electronic way of doing the task you require but I
just happen to have worked with some computer software and hardware that can
do this task very well.

What you are looking for is a "Stereo Vision Pair" (two cameras feeds) and
some software that works out the distance between the cameras and a selected
object. The software is a little complex but I have written some code that
does the trick with simple math. This is all done using trigonometry.
The most complex part of the software is object tracking, once you have
zero'd onto the object you can take the displacement of the object from the
two image frames and use trigonemetry to workout the distance between the
cameras (which are normaly 90 degree and 6 degree with a spacing of 60mm) .
It's very processor intensive but there are a number of algorithms that are
required to do this task optimally. Once you have this all working you can
even tell the size of objects and distance from with great accuracy (down to
about 1mm depending on the total distance range required.).

I have a technique and system I developed from scratch, If you are
interested I could give you a head start with information on object
tracking, stereo vision metrics and optimizing algorithms for image
processing. My system is developed using the C programming language and on
the WIN32 API.

The only down side to this all is that the software is rather complex when
you put all the components together.

Hope this may help.
 
J

Jeroen

hello,
i want to construct a circuit which will be able to measure distance
between two moving cars.The two cars are needed to maintain a fixed
distance between each other.
if the distance between them increases or decreases the circuit
should be able to detect this change and notify the amount of change
in the distance to both cars.
i want to construct this circuit using infrared LEDS ,so if any one
can help me out with this(circuit idea) please mail it to me .

Mercedes-Benz uses a radar device in their adaptive cruise control system on
their S class cars. I think it's not easy to build such device yourself from
scratch.

Jeroen
 
M

mike

hello,
i want to construct a circuit which will be able to measure distance
between two moving cars.The two cars are needed to maintain a fixed
distance between each other.
if the distance between them increases or decreases the circuit
should be able to detect this change and notify the amount of change
in the distance to both cars.
i want to construct this circuit using infrared LEDS ,so if any one
can help me out with this(circuit idea) please mail it to me .

One can only imagine what you're trying to do.
If you're gonna use the information to CONTROL the cars, you're
absolutely (fill in the blank with your favorite expression of dementia).
You're quite likely to get sued by the estate of the person(s) you kill
using your contraption...assuming you survive. Suggest you get a
different hobby.
mike

--
Return address is VALID.
Wanted, PCMCIA SCSI Card for HP m820 CDRW.
FS 500MHz Tek DSOscilloscope TDS540 Make Offer
http://nm7u.tripod.com/homepage/te.html
Wanted, 12.1" LCD for Gateway Solo 5300. Samsung LT121SU-121
Bunch of stuff For Sale and Wanted at the link below.
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Monitor/4710/
 
R

Robert Monsen

hello,
i want to construct a circuit which will be able to measure distance
between two moving cars.The two cars are needed to maintain a fixed
distance between each other.
if the distance between them increases or decreases the circuit
should be able to detect this change and notify the amount of change
in the distance to both cars.
i want to construct this circuit using infrared LEDS ,so if any one
can help me out with this(circuit idea) please mail it to me .

One interesting, and perhaps simpler approach, is to take the same
approach that the sharp IR distance measurement devices use.

These are cheap ($10) electronics gizmos that take 5V, and output an
analog voltage that corresponds to the distance. They are not well
suited to your application, because their maximum range is something
like 80cm, but the scheme they use may be adaptable.

What they do is have an infrared LED, and a sensing device, which
consists of an array of sensors. The LED and the sensors are separated
by a fixed distance (maybe 3cm?), and arranged so that the returning IR
falls onto a particular sensor according to the angle. Using this, they
can sense the angle of return of the IR, and compute distance from that.

Seems like a similar scheme, albeit at a larger scale, might be usable.

Oddly enough, this is the scheme that bees' 'compound eyes' use. They
don't have a 'continuous' set of receptors like we do focused by a lens.
They sense changes with a set of cone shaped segments.

Feynman goes into detail about the compound eye in "The Feynman Lectures
on Physics", volume I, ch 36. He makes some typically clever
calculations, and determines that given a bee's eye, the maximal
resolution vs the diffraction of light at the wavelength they care about
will predict the shape of these cones. The formula he comes up with is

sigma = sqrt(lambda * r)

where sigma is the diameter of a segment at the tip, r is the length of
the segment, and lambda is the wavelength of light to be seen.

This may actually affect the minimum resolution of your detector. Say
your detector is w from the source, and you are projecting IR which has
a wavelength of lambda. You presumably wish to detect differences at
distances of about 10m. Say the resolution is deltaD. Then

deltaD = 0.5*w * (tan(t1) - tan(t2))

where t1 is the angle at the farther distance, and t2 is the angle at
the closer distance. Then by a little trig, we have

deltaD = 0.5*w*(1 + tan(t1)*tan(t2)) * (tan (t1-t2))

since by Feynman's formula,

sigma = sqrt(lambda * r)

if the angle of the opening is (t1 - t2), and the internal length is r,
we have

sigma = r * tan(t1 - t2)

so

r^2 * tan(t1-t2)^2 = lambda * r

and

tan(t1-t2) = sqrt(lambda/r)

thus, by the formula above,

deltaD = 0.5*w*(1 + tan(t1)*tan(t2)) * sqrt(lambda/r)

Now, assuming that w is 2m, and we want to detect differences at 10m,
tan(t1) is about 10. Thus

deltaD = 101 * sqrt(lambda/r)

For lambda = 1um, and a detector of 2cm in length, that means the
minimum distance resolution that can be detected is

deltaD = 101 * sqrt(1e-6/20e-3) = 750mm

before diffraction causes problems. This is 7% of the total distance!
However, if you use ultraviolet, then you can make the opening much
smaller, since the wavelength is smaller. For UV at lambda = 10e-7, you
can detect

deltaD = 101 * sqrt(10e-7/20e-3) = 255mm

which is a bit better.

At smaller angles, the (1 + tan(t)^2) factor gets smaller. Thus, at 5m,
we have 180mm, and at 2m, we have 35mm for IR with a 2cm r.

--
Regards,
Robert Monsen

"Your Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis."
- Pierre Laplace (1749-1827), to Napoleon,
on why his works on celestial mechanics make no mention of God.
 
J

John Larkin

Unfortunately, absolute measurement of short distances using
electromagnetic waves is difficult / impossible due to the speed of
light.

Well, radar was invented around 1939.

John
 
M

Mac

It might be easier with microwaves than infra-red:

Measure relative velocity using the Doppler effect. By integrating
this, you get a running estimate of the change in distance. Weird
things might happen when you go around corners!

Unfortunately, absolute measurement of short distances using
electromagnetic waves is difficult / impossible due to the speed of
light.

It is not difficult at all. It just requires bandwidth. Before anybody
jumps on my case about detecting short CW pulses, let me point out that
short CW pulses have a LOT of bandwidth, and the shorter they are the more
bandwidth they have.

The same rules would apply to a modulated IR signal. There is no way the
OP is going to get any kind of high resolution ranging using IR alone
because there is just not enough bandwidth. (Some laser diodes have more
than enough bandwidth to do this, but I don't think they put out enough
power)

Ultrasound might work well. You could have a transponder on the back of
the car in front and a range-finder on the front of the car in back.

--Mac
 
M

Mac

hello,
i want to construct a circuit which will be able to measure distance
between two moving cars.The two cars are needed to maintain a fixed
distance between each other.
if the distance between them increases or decreases the circuit
should be able to detect this change and notify the amount of change
in the distance to both cars.
i want to construct this circuit using infrared LEDS ,so if any one
can help me out with this(circuit idea) please mail it to me .

This won't work.

I suggest you try to think of a different approach. It seems to me as
though radar is the best approach.

Ultrasound might work, but high frequency ultrasound attenuates rapidly in
air.

You might be able to use two LED's on the rear of the car in front, and a
video camera on the car in back. The distance would be calculated from the
angular separation of the LED's. The LED's would have to be mounted with a
carefully measured separation.

Good luck. You're going to need it.

--Mac
 
R

Rich Grise

hello,
i want to construct a circuit which will be able to measure distance
between two moving cars.The two cars are needed to maintain a fixed
distance between each other.
if the distance between them increases or decreases the circuit
should be able to detect this change and notify the amount of change
in the distance to both cars.
i want to construct this circuit using infrared LEDS ,so if any one
can help me out with this(circuit idea) please mail it to me .

People have mentioned triangulation. Does a license plate retroreflect
laser pointer light?

Thanks,
Rich
 
K

keith

Or use something much slower than light - ultrasonics.

Why? If better than a few inch resolution is needed, which doesn't seem
to be the case here, use interferometry or as another poster said,
stereoscopic vision. The guts of a few optical mice may do a decent
stereoscope.

I'd think ultrasonics would be dicy in a noisy environment.
 
K

keith

It is not difficult at all. It just requires bandwidth. Before anybody
jumps on my case about detecting short CW pulses, let me point out that
short CW pulses have a LOT of bandwidth, and the shorter they are the more
bandwidth they have.

Ok, what's the bandwidth of a kHz modulated ~2GHz carrier (wherever there
is some free bandwidth). It should be trivial to measure the round-trip
delay to withing a nS, which is about six inches. At a kHz,
that gives us a distance measuremnt every millisecond, which should be
enough for distance and differentiate to give a relative velocity
number.
The same rules would apply to a modulated IR signal. There is no way the
OP is going to get any kind of high resolution ranging using IR alone
because there is just not enough bandwidth. (Some laser diodes have more
than enough bandwidth to do this, but I don't think they put out enough
power)

Since it *is* done, I'm not sure why you contend that it can't.
Ultrasound might work well. You could have a transponder on the back of
the car in front and a range-finder on the front of the car in back.

It's *is* done without any transponder, which would make the idea useless.
 
M

Mac

Ok, what's the bandwidth of a kHz modulated ~2GHz carrier (wherever there
is some free bandwidth). It should be trivial to measure the round-trip
delay to withing a nS, which is about six inches. At a kHz,
that gives us a distance measuremnt every millisecond, which should be
enough for distance and differentiate to give a relative velocity
number.

Are you talking about on/off modulation of a 2GHz carrier at a 1KHz
rate? How long is the "on" time?
Since it *is* done, I'm not sure why you contend that it can't.

Please elaborate. What is done? Are you saying that there is an IR diode
based system that can give precise range information? I am very interested
in this system.
It's *is* done without any transponder, which would make the idea useless.

I admit that the transponder is not essential. It just makes it easier to
detect the signal, and increases the range over which the system would
work.

--Mac
 
K

keith

Are you talking about on/off modulation of a 2GHz carrier at a 1KHz
rate? How long is the "on" time?

Yes, pick your poision.
Please elaborate. What is done? Are you saying that there is an IR diode
based system that can give precise range information? I am very interested
in this system.

I was referring more to the RADAR range finders that Merc is using for
"smart" speed control. IR diodes may have different problems (ambient
noise, etc).
I admit that the transponder is not essential. It just makes it easier
to detect the signal, and increases the range over which the system
would work.

It also adds an unknown and significant delay into the path.
 
M

Mark Jones

keith said:
Why? If better than a few inch resolution is needed, which doesn't seem
to be the case here, use interferometry or as another poster said,
stereoscopic vision. The guts of a few optical mice may do a decent
stereoscope.

I'd think ultrasonics would be dicy in a noisy environment.


The design of an ultrasonic rangefinder would be trivial in
comparison to a laser rangefinder.

But of course, the OP may do what he likes.
 
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