Maker Pro
Maker Pro

Measured INDUCTANCE of my welding reactor

T

Tim Williams

We're
in the order-of-magnitude "ballpark" of safe breakdown, but
sadly, without some other protection to prevent breakdown,
the IGBT will probably be toast.

(Sorry to jump in a thread but..) A good reason to use a power
supply-voltage-limited topology like half or full bridge so the flyback is
clamped by diodes. Hence what I'm using in my similarly high powered
induction heater.

Tim

P.S. Heh, interesting coincidence that I'm replying here as I flip through
The Art Of Electronics. Hey Win, was it intentional that the figure on page
389 happens to be numbered as such? ;-)
 
W

Winfield Hill

Tim Williams wrote...
P.S. Heh, interesting coincidence that I'm replying here as I flip
through The Art Of Electronics. Hey Win, was it intentional that
the figure on page 389 happens to be numbered as such? ;-)

66 figures in chapter 6, pure coincidence.
 
G

Glen Walpert

Glen, I made another attempt to measure inductance. It now came to be
1.85 mH.

I wired a space heater in series with the inductor, and measured
relevant values.

Another attempt at inductance

Vac 124.4
Voltage across inductor 8.69
Current 12.5

Formula: V=I*2*pi*f*L

or L=V/(I*2*pi*f)
Inductance= 0.0018450 Henry
1.8450 mH

i

OK, I will buy approx 2 mH as your inductor value. There will be some
additional leakage inductance from the transformer contributing to
stored energy, the functional equivalent of a (hopefully only
slightly) larger inductor.

Now you have enough info to simulate your circuit with LTSpice, which
I think should be your next step.

Not much time to think about this right now as I am headed out to a
place with no electricity or phone service within miles in a few
minutes, but I will be back on line Mon or Tues next week.

Glen
 
I

Ignoramus15297

OK, I will buy approx 2 mH as your inductor value. There will be some
additional leakage inductance from the transformer contributing to
stored energy, the functional equivalent of a (hopefully only
slightly) larger inductor.

That's nice that these numbers make sense to you. I rather like this
test better than the 5 kHz wavetek test.
Now you have enough info to simulate your circuit with LTSpice, which
I think should be your next step.

Not much time to think about this right now as I am headed out to a
place with no electricity or phone service within miles in a few
minutes, but I will be back on line Mon or Tues next week.


Thanks Glen. With these numbers, the calculation for capacitance in
the snubber circuit gives large, but not insane values.

Can I use an electrolytic cap in the snubber? Would it be safe to
oversize the cap a little bit?

i
 
T

The Phantom

Glen, I made another attempt to measure inductance. It now came to be
1.85 mH.

I wired a space heater in series with the inductor, and measured
relevant values.

Another attempt at inductance

Vac 124.4
Voltage across inductor 8.69
Current 12.5

Formula: V=I*2*pi*f*L

or L=V/(I*2*pi*f)
Inductance= 0.0018450 Henry
1.8450 mH

i

You've posted a lot of times with various details, and some of your plans have changed
as a result of comments from people. Could you give an overall description of what
hardware you have and how you plan to use it all?

For example, I think you bought a welder at auction for $9.99. Will that be the DC
source feeding your inverter? Will you leave the inductor you've been talking about
lately between the DC welder and your inverter? Is the inverter going to be a full
bridge? Will the inverter frequency be variable, and if so, what range of frequencies
will it cover? Etc., etc.
 
I

Ignoramus15297

You've posted a lot of times with various details, and some of your plans have changed
as a result of comments from people. Could you give an overall description of what
hardware you have and how you plan to use it all?

For example, I think you bought a welder at auction for $9.99. Will that be the DC
source feeding your inverter? Will you leave the inductor you've been talking about
lately between the DC welder and your inverter? Is the inverter going to be a full
bridge? Will the inverter frequency be variable, and if so, what range of frequencies
will it cover? Etc., etc.

Sorry, I think that at times I assume that people follow every post of
mine, which, of course, is wrong and presumptuous.

Yes, I bought a tig welder for $9.99, here are the pictures, PDF manuals
and the story:

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Welding/00-Hobart-CyberTig-Welder/

It has a 100% duty cycle and I would like, eventually, to make it do a
bit of automatic welding. It is a 3 phase welder that I am running
from my homemade phase converter:

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Phase-Converter/

I want to build a full bridge inverter that would make square wave AC
from DC.

I want to place it between the reactor/inductor and the commutator
that switches welding terminals from DC electrode negative (DCEN) to
DC electrode positive (DCEP).

The middle position of the commutator, which now simply disconnects
terminals, would become a Squarewave AC position and would start the
inverter. The inverter circuit would consist of the timing circuit,
possibly an extra control for lift-arc, generator of two logically
opposite ON and OFF signals for upper and lower gates, gate drivers,
and four Toshiba 200A IGBTs. There will also be a snubber circuit to
protect IGBTs in case of an instant turn off (which I hope should not
happen).

The inverter will have two variable parameters, frequency (tentatively
from 20-40 Hz to 300-400 Hz) and duty cycle (relative percentage of EP
and EN in every period). Duty cycle would vary from, say, 10% to 90%.

In the next few days, I am going to start messing with IC chips on
breadboard.

I have a few test equipment pieces, like two oscilloscopes,
numerous voltmeters, signal generators etc.

i
 
I

Ignoramus15297

Sorry, I think that at times I assume that people follow every post of
mine, which, of course, is wrong and presumptuous.

Yes, I bought a tig welder for $9.99, here are the pictures, PDF manuals
and the story:

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Welding/00-Hobart-CyberTig-Welder/

It has a 100% duty cycle and I would like, eventually, to make it do a
bit of automatic welding. It is a 3 phase welder that I am running
from my homemade phase converter:

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Phase-Converter/

I want to build a full bridge inverter that would make square wave AC
from DC.

I want to place it between the reactor/inductor and the commutator
that switches welding terminals from DC electrode negative (DCEN) to
DC electrode positive (DCEP).

note also that there is a high voltage, high frequency arc starter that
goes between the commutator and the tig terminal.

i
The middle position of the commutator, which now simply disconnects
terminals, would become a Squarewave AC position and would start the
inverter. The inverter circuit would consist of the timing circuit,
possibly an extra control for lift-arc, generator of two logically
opposite ON and OFF signals for upper and lower gates, gate drivers,
and four Toshiba 200A IGBTs. There will also be a snubber circuit to
protect IGBTs in case of an instant turn off (which I hope should not
happen).

The inverter will have two variable parameters, frequency (tentatively
from 20-40 Hz to 300-400 Hz) and duty cycle (relative percentage of EP
and EN in every period). Duty cycle would vary from, say, 10% to 90%.

In the next few days, I am going to start messing with IC chips on
breadboard.

I have a few test equipment pieces, like two oscilloscopes,
numerous voltmeters, signal generators etc.

i


--
 
T

The Phantom

Sorry, I think that at times I assume that people follow every post of
mine, which, of course, is wrong and presumptuous.

Yes, I bought a tig welder for $9.99, here are the pictures, PDF manuals
and the story:

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Welding/00-Hobart-CyberTig-Welder/

It has a 100% duty cycle and I would like, eventually, to make it do a
bit of automatic welding. It is a 3 phase welder that I am running
from my homemade phase converter:

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Phase-Converter/

I want to build a full bridge inverter that would make square wave AC
from DC.

I want to place it between the reactor/inductor and the commutator
that switches welding terminals from DC electrode negative (DCEN) to
DC electrode positive (DCEP).

So if I understand correctly, in your added-on AC mode, it goes like this: DC comes
from the welder's power supply, through the inductor, through the inverter, to the
commutator, thence to the work piece. Is this right?
The middle position of the commutator, which now simply disconnects
terminals, would become a Squarewave AC position and would start the
inverter. The inverter circuit would consist of the timing circuit,
possibly an extra control for lift-arc, generator of two logically
opposite ON and OFF signals for upper and lower gates, gate drivers,
and four Toshiba 200A IGBTs. There will also be a snubber circuit to
protect IGBTs in case of an instant turn off (which I hope should not
happen).

What is the unloaded DC voltage from the welder?
 
I

Ignoramus15297

So if I understand correctly, in your added-on AC mode, it goes like
this: DC comes from the welder's power supply, through the inductor,
through the inverter,
yes

to the commutator,

not exactly, it would bypass the commutator and flow from one (source)
pair of commutator contacts and to other (exit) pair of commutator
contacts.

thence to the work piece.

then through HF HV arc starter

then to the workpiece.
Is this right?

Basically, yes.
What is the unloaded DC voltage from the welder?

85 volts OCV.

Loaded, it is more like 28V while welding and much, much less when
electrode sticks to the work piece.

I welcome your comments...

i


--
 
G

Glen Walpert

That's nice that these numbers make sense to you. I rather like this
test better than the 5 kHz wavetek test.



Thanks Glen. With these numbers, the calculation for capacitance in
the snubber circuit gives large, but not insane values.

Can I use an electrolytic cap in the snubber? Would it be safe to
oversize the cap a little bit?

Most if not all electrolytics have too much Equivalent Series
Resistance (ESR) for use in snubbers. Usually low ESR film caps are
used. Suggest you find out how much ESR your caps have, and simulate.
If you can't find the ESR rating for your caps, forget about using
them in a snubber. Low Equivalent Series Inductance (ESL) is also a
very good thing for snubber caps. ESR is a problem because it
increases the time it takes to get energy into the cap, and it
dissipates heat inside the cap, possibly causing the electrolyte to
boil.

Also, think about using a fairly hefty safety factor, remembering that
you have not measured the transformer leakage inductance, which will
also contribute to the energy the snubber must handle.

http://www.linear.com/company/software.jsp

The "LTSpice" simulator I have been suggesting you try is also called
SwitcherCAD III. This will allow you to see for yourself some of the
effects of snubber ESR, althoug it will not calculate cap temp rise
for you.
 
I

Ignoramus21085

Most if not all electrolytics have too much Equivalent Series
Resistance (ESR) for use in snubbers. Usually low ESR film caps are
used. Suggest you find out how much ESR your caps have, and simulate.
If you can't find the ESR rating for your caps, forget about using
them in a snubber. Low Equivalent Series Inductance (ESL) is also a
very good thing for snubber caps. ESR is a problem because it
increases the time it takes to get energy into the cap, and it
dissipates heat inside the cap, possibly causing the electrolyte to
boil.

Also, think about using a fairly hefty safety factor, remembering that
you have not measured the transformer leakage inductance, which will
also contribute to the energy the snubber must handle.

I got it.
http://www.linear.com/company/software.jsp

The "LTSpice" simulator I have been suggesting you try is also called
SwitcherCAD III. This will allow you to see for yourself some of the
effects of snubber ESR, althoug it will not calculate cap temp rise
for you.

Glen, to be honest, I am not very optimistic about doing
simulation. Too many unknowns and fudge factors. Plus, it is too easy
to make a mistake and simulate something that's not related to what my
circuit will be doing.

What I would like to do is find some way to actually measure the peak
voltages ad dV/dt and such. Any suggestions for doing so, given that
I own a Tek 2445 scope?

Also, did you see my posts about getting the timing/duty cycle circuit
to work. It works now...

i
 
G

Glen Walpert

Glen, to be honest, I am not very optimistic about doing
simulation. Too many unknowns and fudge factors. Plus, it is too easy
to make a mistake and simulate something that's not related to what my
circuit will be doing.

I think you are overestimating the difficulties and underestimating
the value of Spice simulations. True, simulations can lie, but you
will be testing your circuit at low power and you can obtain some
confidence in your spice simulation by verifying that it predicts the
low power operation of your circuit, then simulate full power, then
build the full power version.
What I would like to do is find some way to actually measure the peak
voltages ad dV/dt and such. Any suggestions for doing so, given that
I own a Tek 2445 scope?

This would be easier with a digital or storage scope in the situation
where you are producing only a single event. In the old days before
the invention of digital and storage scopes we used Polaroid
oscilloscope cameras to capture single shots; they mounted on the
scope faceplate with an adapter that excluded room light. The shutter
was opened, the event being observed fired and the scope triggered
from it, camera shutter closed and then film developed. I don't know
if any cheap digital cameras have a time exposure mode, but if so you
could rig one up to do this.

But for low power testing you just repeat the event at some regular
rate and trigger on it.

Of course a Spice simulation lets you "scope" any current or voltage
in the circuit, and tweak until you like the results. No parts need
to be replaced when their ratings are exceeded either.
Also, did you see my posts about getting the timing/duty cycle circuit
to work. It works now...

No, I missed it, I mostly just scan subject lines and read a few
messages on interesting topics, like welding. (I paid for a good part
of my engineering degree by pushing puddles of metal around.) I trust
you have a means for adjusting phase overlap? Why not simulate your
working circuit to gain some experience and confidence in Spice?

-----------

OT - a spice story:

A few years ago, when DOS 3.2 was mickeysofts latest and greatest, I
bought the "free" student version of PSpice (with the $100 manual,
good luck using it without the manual). Entirely text based, no
schematic capture, much harder to use than LTSpice. Right after I
read the manual a Co-Op student walked into my office and complained
that a customer had provided an erroneous schematic for an
overtemperature shutdown board they wanted us to reproduce since the
OEM was out of business and their stock system was out of them. The
student had figured out what was wrong with their schematic and fixed
it, but the customer refused to accept the change, insisting that they
had provided a certified drawing which could not be wrong, we must
have made a mistake and we should fix our mistake not change the
drawing. The student wanted me to call the customer and straighten
him out, but instead I handed him my copy of PSpice and told him to
simulate the circuit both ways. The customer dosen't accept the
evidence, provide him with more evidence. "SPICE" he complained, "I
don't know SPICE! I can't do that!" Sure you can, I said, providing a
5-minute tutorial, and instructing him to try out all of the available
reports.

The next day he returned with an inch thick dot-matrix printout on
wide paper, which exactly duplicated both his pencil and paper
analysis and the actual circuit operation. After I convinced him that
rolling up the printout and beating the customer severely about the
head and shoulders with it could be bad for repeat business, he sent
the printout to the customer, with circles, arrows and post-it notes
identifying the important parts. The customer then accepted the
change and agreed to pay for it.

Next time I saw the customer I asked if he had changed his drawing.
"Are you KIDDING? Do you know how hard it is to change a CERTIFIED
DRAWING? I don't have that kind of time!" was his unsuprising
response. But the Co-Op student gained some valuable experience, and
has been a Spice advocate ever since.

Try it, you'll like it :).
 
W

Winfield Hill

Glen Walpert wrote...
the Co-Op student gained some valuable experience,
and has been a Spice advocate ever since.

Try it, you'll like it :).

Except, my advice to Ignoramus21085: TEST YOUR MODELS.
 
I

Ignoramus3242

Glen Walpert wrote...

Except, my advice to Ignoramus21085: TEST YOUR MODELS.

Winfield, you may be interested to know that I am reading your Art of
Electronics and find it to be a fantastic book.

What do you mean by testing my models?

My job description is to write software models of certain real life
processes, so I am a little confused: are you asking me to test spice
simulations by seeing if they appear correct across a range of
conditions, or are you asking me to test my actual devices and not to
rely on models alone.

Like I said, I am tending not to trust similation here, rightly or
wrongly, for two reasons:

1) parameters such as inductance of the welder, EMI etc, are not well
known. I did measure the inductance to be 1.85 mH at 12.5 amps, but I
am not sure if I can extrapolate it to, say, 350 amps. (I say 350 amps
because the welder is rated for 200 amps, but could have momentarily
higher currents).

2) I am very interested in testing this H bridge with the welding
machine, at very low currents (say, starting with 0.1A, supplied by a
battery or some such, not a running welder). I could then test voltage
peaks and performance of the snubber.

i
 
I

Ignoramus3242

I think you are overestimating the difficulties and underestimating
the value of Spice simulations. True, simulations can lie, but you
will be testing your circuit at low power and you can obtain some
confidence in your spice simulation by verifying that it predicts the
low power operation of your circuit, then simulate full power, then
build the full power version.

That's true... Still, I think that the model would, due to my
inexperience, give me a wrong answer and I would think that I know
something, whereas I do not, a dangerous condition.
This would be easier with a digital or storage scope in the situation
where you are producing only a single event. In the old days before
the invention of digital and storage scopes we used Polaroid
oscilloscope cameras to capture single shots; they mounted on the
scope faceplate with an adapter that excluded room light. The shutter
was opened, the event being observed fired and the scope triggered
from it, camera shutter closed and then film developed. I don't know
if any cheap digital cameras have a time exposure mode, but if so you
could rig one up to do this.

But for low power testing you just repeat the event at some regular
rate and trigger on it.
Yep...

Of course a Spice simulation lets you "scope" any current or voltage
in the circuit, and tweak until you like the results. No parts need
to be replaced when their ratings are exceeded either.


No, I missed it, I mostly just scan subject lines and read a few
messages on interesting topics, like welding. (I paid for a good part
of my engineering degree by pushing puddles of metal around.) I trust
you have a means for adjusting phase overlap? Why not simulate your
working circuit to gain some experience and confidence in Spice?

I will check it out...
OT - a spice story:

A few years ago, when DOS 3.2 was mickeysofts latest and greatest, I
bought the "free" student version of PSpice (with the $100 manual,
good luck using it without the manual). Entirely text based, no
schematic capture, much harder to use than LTSpice. Right after I
read the manual a Co-Op student walked into my office and complained
that a customer had provided an erroneous schematic for an
overtemperature shutdown board they wanted us to reproduce since the
OEM was out of business and their stock system was out of them. The
student had figured out what was wrong with their schematic and fixed
it, but the customer refused to accept the change, insisting that they
had provided a certified drawing which could not be wrong, we must
have made a mistake and we should fix our mistake not change the
drawing. The student wanted me to call the customer and straighten
him out, but instead I handed him my copy of PSpice and told him to
simulate the circuit both ways. The customer dosen't accept the
evidence, provide him with more evidence. "SPICE" he complained, "I
don't know SPICE! I can't do that!" Sure you can, I said, providing a
5-minute tutorial, and instructing him to try out all of the available
reports.

The next day he returned with an inch thick dot-matrix printout on
wide paper, which exactly duplicated both his pencil and paper
analysis and the actual circuit operation. After I convinced him that
rolling up the printout and beating the customer severely about the
head and shoulders with it could be bad for repeat business, he sent
the printout to the customer, with circles, arrows and post-it notes
identifying the important parts. The customer then accepted the
change and agreed to pay for it.

Next time I saw the customer I asked if he had changed his drawing.
"Are you KIDDING? Do you know how hard it is to change a CERTIFIED
DRAWING? I don't have that kind of time!" was his unsuprising
response. But the Co-Op student gained some valuable experience, and
has been a Spice advocate ever since.

Try it, you'll like it :).

I will check it out...
i
--
 
W

Winfield Hill

Ignoramus3242 wrote...
Winfield, you may be interested to know that I am reading your
Art of Electronics and find it to be a fantastic book.

Very good, there's hope for you yet. :>)
What do you mean by testing my models?

My job description is to write software models of certain real life
processes, so I am a little confused: are you asking me to test
spice simulations by seeing if they appear correct across a range
of conditions, or are you asking me to test my actual devices and
not to rely on models alone.

Like I said, I am tending not to trust similation here, rightly or
wrongly, for two reasons:

1) parameters such as inductance of the welder, EMI etc, are not
well known. I did measure the inductance to be 1.85 mH at 12.5 amps,
but I am not sure if I can extrapolate it to, say, 350 amps. (I say
350 amps because the welder is rated for 200 amps, but could have
momentarily higher currents).

2) I am very interested in testing this H bridge with the welding
machine, at very low currents (say, starting with 0.1A, supplied by
a battery or some such, not a running welder). I could then test
voltage peaks and performance of the snubber.

By models, I mean the specific detailed component models Spice uses
to simulate a circuit. Spice is intrinsically highly accurate, *IF*
the models used in the spice simulation are accurate. Probably the
most common misunderstanding new Spice users make is to assume Spice
analysis is Spice analysis, without paying attention to the library
models used in their Spice code. It's primarily the accuracy of the
models that determines the accuracy of a Spice simulation. This means
you need to create little experimental bench setups to measure all
the relevant parameters of your components and add them to your Spice
program.

For example, for your welder's inductor you need series resistance,
self capacitance, and maybe some other parameters. I don't know if
your inductor saturates at full current, but if it does, you'll need
to include the nonlinear parameters for that. If it suffers a high-
voltage breakdown, that should be included. I like to add the extra
parameters as explicit additional elements in my Spice circuits. My
point is, you can take specific bench measurements on your inductor
to find out what's needed in its model, and thus get the parameters
to put into the model or into your finished circuit.

When it comes to MOSFETS and IGBTs, there are a host of parameters
you'll need. It may be the manufacturer's models are sufficient.
But the only way to find out is to set up specific relevant tests,
and see if the bench measurements match the Spice predictions to an
adequate degree. Once you've done that, you can have confidence in
your Spice models and thus in your Spice simulation. At that point
it can become an intensely valuable "what-if" tool. I agree it takes
considerable experience to know how to do all this well. But that's
part of what serious electronics engineering is all about. Right?
 
G

Glen Walpert

Glen Walpert wrote...
[/QUOTE]
What do you mean by testing my models?

My job description is to write software models of certain real life
processes, so I am a little confused: are you asking me to test
spice simulations by seeing if they appear correct across a range
of conditions, or are you asking me to test my actual devices and
not to rely on models alone.

Like I said, I am tending not to trust similation here, rightly or
wrongly, for two reasons:

1) parameters such as inductance of the welder, EMI etc, are not
well known. I did measure the inductance to be 1.85 mH at 12.5 amps,
but I am not sure if I can extrapolate it to, say, 350 amps. (I say
350 amps because the welder is rated for 200 amps, but could have
momentarily higher currents).

2) I am very interested in testing this H bridge with the welding
machine, at very low currents (say, starting with 0.1A, supplied by
a battery or some such, not a running welder). I could then test
voltage peaks and performance of the snubber.

By models, I mean the specific detailed component models Spice uses
to simulate a circuit. Spice is intrinsically highly accurate, *IF*
the models used in the spice simulation are accurate. Probably the
most common misunderstanding new Spice users make is to assume Spice
analysis is Spice analysis, without paying attention to the library
models used in their Spice code. It's primarily the accuracy of the
models that determines the accuracy of a Spice simulation. This means
you need to create little experimental bench setups to measure all
the relevant parameters of your components and add them to your Spice
program.

For example, for your welder's inductor you need series resistance,
self capacitance, and maybe some other parameters. I don't know if
your inductor saturates at full current, but if it does, you'll need
to include the nonlinear parameters for that. If it suffers a high-
voltage breakdown, that should be included. I like to add the extra
parameters as explicit additional elements in my Spice circuits. My
point is, you can take specific bench measurements on your inductor
to find out what's needed in its model, and thus get the parameters
to put into the model or into your finished circuit.

When it comes to MOSFETS and IGBTs, there are a host of parameters
you'll need. It may be the manufacturer's models are sufficient.
But the only way to find out is to set up specific relevant tests,
and see if the bench measurements match the Spice predictions to an
adequate degree. Once you've done that, you can have confidence in
your Spice models and thus in your Spice simulation. At that point
it can become an intensely valuable "what-if" tool. I agree it takes
considerable experience to know how to do all this well. But that's
part of what serious electronics engineering is all about. Right?[/QUOTE]

All good points, but I think for this application getting adequate
correlation between simulation and hardware will not be nearly as
difficult as for instance with subthreshold MOSFET operation. In fact
I expect that the IR models will be entirely adequate for i to obtain
a good understanding of the effects of changing phase overlap, and
gate drive failure. But I will admit to being wrong on a fairly
regular basis :).

Questions for i: What is your IGBT part number again (GA100TS60SQ ?),
and have you read IR AN-1045, "AC TIG Welding Output Inverter Design
Basics"? It looks like this AN covers almost exactly what you want to
do, except that you do not have the luxury of pulse shaping to reduce
current during switching due to lack of access to the welder current
control circuit (no schematic in the manual, you would need to reverse
engineer it) and the slow response available from your SCR based
current controller would preclude pulse shaping even if you did.

BTW AN-1045 seems to imply that commercial welder designs simply
accept IGBT failure as a consequence of gate drive failure; the
snubber which will handle the inductor energy in this situation is
probably not feasable.
 
I

Ignoramus21002

Ignoramus3242 wrote...

Very good, there's hope for you yet. :>)

I already used a couple of ideas described in that book.
By models, I mean the specific detailed component models Spice uses
to simulate a circuit. Spice is intrinsically highly accurate, *IF*
the models used in the spice simulation are accurate. Probably the
most common misunderstanding new Spice users make is to assume Spice
analysis is Spice analysis, without paying attention to the library
models used in their Spice code. It's primarily the accuracy of the
models that determines the accuracy of a Spice simulation. This means
you need to create little experimental bench setups to measure all
the relevant parameters of your components and add them to your Spice
program.

For example, for your welder's inductor you need series resistance,
self capacitance, and maybe some other parameters. I don't know if
your inductor saturates at full current, but if it does, you'll need
to include the nonlinear parameters for that.


That is the issue, I have no idea if it saturates at full
current. Many, many things are undefined. So, I am facing: uncertainty
about actual parameters, as well as overwhelming likelihood that I
would not be able to create a model that I intend to create.

Hence, I think that the value of modeling this, for me, would be
negative.

Carefully testing this system, starting at low current, would be more
fruitful than trying to model it based on numerous unknowns,
unknowables, possibility of mistakes etc.
If it suffers a high- voltage breakdown, that should be included.

An excellent point. Is breakdown of the inductor at high voltages
(say 1000V) harmless to it or other circuit elements?

i
 
I

Ignoramus21002

On 26 Oct 2005 19:04:28 -0700, Winfield Hill

All good points, but I think for this application getting adequate
correlation between simulation and hardware will not be nearly as
difficult as for instance with subthreshold MOSFET operation. In fact
I expect that the IR models will be entirely adequate for i to obtain
a good understanding of the effects of changing phase overlap, and
gate drive failure. But I will admit to being wrong on a fairly
regular basis :).

I admit to the same thing, and thus I am a little leery of trusting my
modeling process too much.
Questions for i: What is your IGBT part number again (GA100TS60SQ ?),

No, Toshiba MG200Q2YS40.

See
http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Hom...er/Schematic/Toshiba-MG200Q2YS40_DAT-IGBT.pdf
and have you read IR AN-1045, "AC TIG Welding Output Inverter Design
Basics"?

Yes, more than once. :)

I listed a few reference papers on my webpage

http://igor.chudov.com/projects/Homemade-TIG-DC-to-AC-Inverter/Schematic/
It looks like this AN covers almost exactly what you want to
do, except that you do not have the luxury of pulse shaping to reduce
current during switching

That's right. The design is really quite simple. I have no plans to do
such pulse shaping, that opens big trouble.
due to lack of access to the welder current control circuit (no
schematic in the manual, you would need to reverse engineer it) and
the slow response available from your SCR based current controller
would preclude pulse shaping even if you did.

BTW AN-1045 seems to imply that commercial welder designs simply
accept IGBT failure as a consequence of gate drive failure; the
snubber which will handle the inductor energy in this situation is
probably not feasable.

Here are some of my thoughts on this. Feel free to shoot them down.

1. During regular welding operation, switching of the H bridge would
happen relatively quickly and I hope that it would happen within one
microsecond. Furthermore, it is possible that I could make the bridge
short for a fraction of a uS, rather than be open for a uS.

Such very small duration shorts or opens can be taken care of with a
relatively small capacitor. If a duration of the open condition is
within 2 uS, I calculated that a capacitor to absorb the current for
the duration needs to be quite small and affordable.

2. Complete turn offs of the bridge should NOT happen during
welding, on a _regular_basis. I cannot be running a bead and turning
the welder's commutator handle at the same time.

Possible situations when a turn off would happen are:

1) failure of the drive circuit
2) failure of the power supply
3) some other failure
4) someone maliciously trying to turn off the circuit

In any case, these are rare events. I think that I can have a snubber
circuit like a RCD, and also a bunch of transorbs (varistors). I
already bought some varistors. That ought to take care of such rare
events.

3. I hope that arc that extinguishes, such as when I withdraw the
welding torch, is not going to generate voltage spikes and dI/dt of
similarly high magnitude, as it would happen more slowly. Is that
correct?


i
 
T

The Phantom

I already used a couple of ideas described in that book.



That is the issue, I have no idea if it saturates at full
current. Many, many things are undefined. So, I am facing: uncertainty
about actual parameters, as well as overwhelming likelihood that I
would not be able to create a model that I intend to create.

Hence, I think that the value of modeling this, for me, would be
negative.

Carefully testing this system, starting at low current, would be more
fruitful than trying to model it based on numerous unknowns,
unknowables, possibility of mistakes etc.


An excellent point. Is breakdown of the inductor at high voltages
(say 1000V) harmless to it or other circuit elements?

i
I may have some more comments, but since this discussion has veered away
from just the inductor, why don't you start a new thread?
 
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