Marketing and selling home made electronics... LED tree ?

[parkland]

Hello,
I thought I'd run this past you guys.

My wife wants to start making LED trees for outside use.
I have been running a part time solar power business, but all my stuff comes assembled to a degree. I have no idea how electrical code might come into play regarding electrical construction from scratch.
Someone told me that it doesn't matter a long as a certified power supply is used.
So I am very curious about that, like I said, I have no experience selling home brewed electronics.

And then the actual design of these.... is there actually a method that is required as far as wiring, or is it just whatever works?
I'm thinking copper or aluminum tree frame, and then wire all the LED's up, and wrap everything with green or brown fabric, then coat in a UV stable paint or epoxy.
I was thinking of wiring the LED's, wire, and resistors up, using little pieces of tape to hold them in place until the "wrapping" goes over top.



12 or 24 v dc outdoor power supply and start cranking them out?


ANY input would be great!!

 

[CocaCola]

The real question is how much liability do you want to open yourself up to? AT least in the US you could start selling something like you describe without much hassle, especially if your are doing your own distribution... I doubt anyone would hassle you about approvals or what not, but you are wide open for liability... If you expect a 'store' to sell it I doubt any major chain would even consider it without at minimum a UL or CE certification and possibly an insurance bond...

But, that thing called liability is always there... If you want to minimize your liability you need to research the codes and laws that apply, these vary by locality and protect your butt... If one catches fire or shocks someone or what ever, without being able to show backed up proof that you did everything in your power to make it 'safe' and 'legal' you will find yourself fully on the hook for claims... And if the powers to be do take notice of you and you failed to get the proper certification or were clearly cutting other corners that violate code or law it could bring a world of hurt upon you, or they could simply say shut down and don't do it again...

The best place for legal advice is with a local attorney familiar with the topics at hand... Not someone told me this or that online or offline...

 

[parkland]

The real question is how much liability do you want to open yourself up to? AT least in the US you could start selling something like you describe without much hassle, especially if your are doing your own distribution... I doubt anyone would hassle you about approvals or what not, but you are wide open for liability... If you expect a 'store' to sell it I doubt any major chain would even consider it without at minimum a UL or CE certification and possibly an insurance bond...

But, that thing called liability is always there... If you want to minimize your liability you need to research the codes and laws that apply, these vary by locality and protect your butt... If one catches fire or shocks someone or what ever, without being able to show backed up proof that you did everything in your power to make it 'safe' and 'legal' you will find yourself fully on the hook for claims... And if the powers to be do take notice of you and you failed to get the proper certification or were clearly cutting other corners that violate code or law it could bring a world of hurt upon you, or they could simply say shut down and don't do it again...

The best place for legal advice is with a local attorney familiar with the topics at hand... Not someone told me this or that online or offline...

So for small time start up, maybe the best way would be to have a disclaimer "only used supervised" , wire everything to the best of my knowledge of what I can find, and if I did find something that we wanted to mass produce and sell to stores, go get it certified?

I understand what you mean, what "some guy says", is not anything really, I'm just digging for any information I can find.

This is new to me, so far I've been paid for acquiring and assembling products that companies have made, this is totally different....

 

[CocaCola]

So for small time start up, maybe the best way would be to have a disclaimer "only used supervised"

A court is not going to excuse your liability for willful neglect or design flaws just because you put in a disclaimer, if it was that easy you could end all product liability lawsuits in an instant by just putting in a disclaimer... I'm not saying a disclaimer is useless, but at the end of the day it carries very little weight overall...

As I said the laws are going to be all over the place by locality, Town 'A' might very well have a law written in their electrical code that states you can not plug in or sell electrical devices that are not certified or tested by whom ever in their limits... While Town 'B' might not care...

I do know that when I was working in home remodeling in this one town, I was chatting with the local electrical inspector and he told me that the towns code forbid any non UL device from being installed anywhere in the house, that included but was not limited to all electrical fittings, the wire and all fixtures... He said they did not strictly adhere to the code as written, but that he could flag for use of a non UL item if he felt like it... The discussion came up because some of the light fixtures the people had purchased were from Germany and didn't have a UL mark...

 

[parkland]

I think I see what you mean; there is no way to get out of the liability, but some places might not care if the device is UL listed.

 

[CocaCola]

I think I see what you mean; there is no way to get out of the liability, but some places might not care if the device is UL listed.

That is certainly the short of it, lots of people sell lots of things you need to choose your course of action that you feel comfortable with... Are you going to treat it as a hobby and play dumb and hope for the best, or are you going to treat it as a business and consult professionals, or somewhere in between...

 

[parkland]

That is certainly the short of it, lots of people sell lots of things you need to choose your course of action that you feel comfortable with... Are you going to treat it as a hobby and play dumb and hope for the best, or are you going to treat it as a business and consult professionals, or somewhere in between...

I want to do it 100% legit, I'm just scared we'll have to pay huge bucks.

 

[CocaCola]

I want to do it 100% legit, I'm just scared we'll have to pay huge bucks.

Yes, if you want to go all out legit, it's going to cost $1000s upon $1000s of dollars just to get a UL stamp, let along the other legal fees that come along with it... That is why you will see A LOT of small businesses skipping many of the 'professional' steps because they simply can't afford them.... On the same coin those businesses that skip the steps usually go *POOF* in an instant if and when something negative happens...

 

[(*steve*)]

I want to do it 100% legit, I'm just scared we'll have to pay huge bucks.

I hate to say this, but have you considered a corporate entity to shield you (somewhat) from personal liability? That, and liability insurance.

 

[parkland]

I hate to say this, but have you considered a corporate entity to shield you (somewhat) from personal liability? That, and liability insurance.

I already have a personal business, and a corporation set up.

I guess theres not much point in even pursuing stamps and certifications when almost every product is different anyways and custom made to order, really, that would be impossible.

 

[CocaCola]

Take this for what it is, as you initially stated using an already marked transformer certainly helps hand off some liability and might even pass scrutiny is looked at... I'm not saying you would be on the up and up, because you would still be liable for the product in the end and any 'mistakes' in your design could still come back to bite... But, using a stamped power supply is a big step over directly plugging your design into the mains...

But, don't take that as 'professional' advice, more just friendly advice and do your home work and don't just think because it works it's safe or a good product to sell...

 

[parkland]

Take this for what it is, as you initially stated using an already marked transformer certainly helps hand off some liability and might even pass scrutiny is looked at... I'm not saying you would be on the up and up, because you would still be liable for the product in the end and any 'mistakes' in your design could still come back to bite... But, using a stamped power supply is a big step over directly plugging your design into the mains...

But, don't take that as 'professional' advice, more just friendly advice and do your home work and don't just think because it works it's safe or a good product to sell...

I guess if a fellow used a legit stamped low voltage power supply, that pretty near exempts you from electrocution liabilities, 12 v can't do much damage, and if you get more than 12 v, it wasn't my led's that supplied it to you...

Run a fuse with that, and if it shorts out, no harm, no foul

So basically, try to keep the quality high, use off the shelf certified parts when available, and cover my butt a bit with warnings, but really if these units are all one-off's, certifying them would never be part of the plan anyways....

thank you for the un-official opinion, at least I have something to think about now

 

[CocaCola]

I guess if a fellow used a legit stamped low voltage power supply, that pretty near exempts you from electrocution liabilities

No, it only adds a level of protection and someone else you can tender the liability towards if things go wrong.. It does not remove your liability as you sold it as part of 'your' product and you are liable for 'your' product as a whole regardless of where the components came from...

 

[parkland]

No, it only adds a level of protection and someone else you can tender the liability towards if things go wrong.. It does not remove your liability as you sold it as part of 'your' product and you are liable for 'your' product as a whole regardless of where the components came from...

I see what you mean.

No wonder all the non certified LED lights from china are cheap as the day is long, anyone can solder junk together for next to nothing... its the commitment that is a huge undertaking.

 

[CocaCola]

No wonder all the non certified LED lights from china are cheap as the day is long

Most of them are certified... You have to remember that when you are selling millions upon millions upon millions of units, a several thousand dollar certification is chump change to secure a foothold in that vast of a market...

 

[CDRIVE]

There is no such animal "Owner/Operator" or Corporation that exempts anyone from liability. Even if a court of law finds you (as an individual) not liable, you and your expensive attorney still had to fight that out in a court of law.

 

[CocaCola]

There is no such animal "Owner/Operator" or Corporation that exempts anyone from liability. Even if a court of law finds you (as an individual) not liable, you and your expensive attorney still had to fight that out in a court of law.

But, the corp will allow you to fold the business and go bankrupt and still protect and not interfere with your personal assets or credit as you and the corp are two different and separate entities under the law... But, yes it won't help if as an officer of the corp are found personally liable, and it won't help pay your legal fees...

Sadly we live in a very sue happy society where everyone is looking to pass the blame and cash out at someone elses expense... This is making doing business more and more costly and/or risky...

 

[CDRIVE]

I think my point was the court battle alone. Win or loose, liable or not, is enough to break most of us.


Little known facts:

Does a large sign reading "BAD DOG!!! -- KEEP OUT!!!" protect you from a degree of liability?

No. It will be used as evidence that you knowingly harbored a vicious dog.

The US Democrat party is nearly entirely made up of lawyers.

What do you call 10 lawyers sky diving?........ Skeet!