Jet Boat Autopilot

[Larry]

I have a Bombardier Utopia 185 jet boat, powered by a Merc 100hp DFI jet.
That is an 18.5 ft bowrider runabout. I would like to add an autopilot to
it. Anyone have any recommendations? Has anyone added an autopilot to a
jet boat and have any suggestions? Thanks

 

[Harry Krause]

I have a Bombardier Utopia 185 jet boat, powered by a Merc 100hp DFI jet.
That is an 18.5 ft bowrider runabout. I would like to add an autopilot to
it. Anyone have any recommendations? Has anyone added an autopilot to a
jet boat and have any suggestions? Thanks

No offense, but what you are doing with your hands and eyes on an 18'
boat that require you to use an autopilot?

 

[Larry]

No offense, but what you are doing with your hands and eyes on an 18'
boat that require you to use an autopilot?

None taken, Harry. The problem isn't the boat size, it's the jet drive.
You can't take your hands off the wheel; it seems to need constant
corrections, and the lower your speed, the more sensitive. This is my
first jet, and while I love the idea of no prop (I'm in northern NH - all
lakes, some of them shallow), the tendency is for the boat to track to one
side. I'm not sure why this is, as "steering" consists of moving a large
pipe in an arc. One would think that it should tend to center, but it
doesn't.

I take her out alone quite a bit, usually on large lakes in western Maine.
I'd like to be able to reach for a sandwich and eat it without having to
hold on to the wheel constantly. Note that does not mean I'm not paying
attention! If I could rig a tiller pilot, that would be fine.

I realize this sounds like I know little to nothing about boats, but I was
born near the water and have cruised and sailed quite a bit. I've owned a
wide variety from a 14' runabout (my first) to a 38' twin screw Hubert
Johnson (my last before moving up here). That doesn't make me an expert,
but perhaps not a novice either.

 

[Harry Krause]

None taken, Harry. The problem isn't the boat size, it's the jet drive.
You can't take your hands off the wheel; it seems to need constant
corrections, and the lower your speed, the more sensitive. This is my
first jet, and while I love the idea of no prop (I'm in northern NH - all
lakes, some of them shallow), the tendency is for the boat to track to one
side. I'm not sure why this is, as "steering" consists of moving a large
pipe in an arc. One would think that it should tend to center, but it
doesn't.

I take her out alone quite a bit, usually on large lakes in western Maine.
I'd like to be able to reach for a sandwich and eat it without having to
hold on to the wheel constantly. Note that does not mean I'm not paying
attention! If I could rig a tiller pilot, that would be fine.

I realize this sounds like I know little to nothing about boats, but I was
born near the water and have cruised and sailed quite a bit. I've owned a
wide variety from a 14' runabout (my first) to a 38' twin screw Hubert
Johnson (my last before moving up here). That doesn't make me an expert,
but perhaps not a novice either.

Interesting. Well, autopilots work on small boats, but the small boats
I've been on that have been so equipped tend to wander a bit back and
forth, yaw, as it were. Bigger boats tend to do that, too, but the
motion seems less noticeable.

I don't know a soul who has a jetboat with an autopilot. Hinckley builds
some large, fancy boats and I presume they are so equipped. You might
want to contact Hinckley and what non-nominal behavior might be part and
parcel of equipping a small jet drive boat with an autopilot.

 

[Larry]

Interesting. Well, autopilots work on small boats, but the small boats
I've been on that have been so equipped tend to wander a bit back and
forth, yaw, as it were. Bigger boats tend to do that, too, but the
motion seems less noticeable.

That's interesting. I've never seen a small boat with an autopilot, so I
have no basis to judge. I wonder if they were controlled by flux gate
compasses or NEMA streams from a GPS? I can see where that might well be a
problem. The larger the craft, the greater the mass, so it makes sense
that they would tend to track better.

I don't know a soul who has a jetboat with an autopilot. Hinckley builds
some large, fancy boats and I presume they are so equipped. You might
want to contact Hinckley and what non-nominal behavior might be part and
parcel of equipping a small jet drive boat with an autopilot.

Either do I, thus the post here! Furthermore, this may be entirely
impractical. If it is, I'll drop it.

Hinckley makes gorgeous boats! That's a name from the past, I'm glad to
see they're still around. I'll take a look - thank you.

 

[BruceM]

I would say it is impractable.
Chap has an auto-pilot here in Sth Aust on a 38footer and believe me it is
the worst boat in the fleet. The boat has the nickname of "drunkboat".
Firstly, those jets are OK for 18 footers going like a bat-out-of-hell up a
fast flowing river & doing spin-outs in their own length like in NZ tourist
fjiords.
At 18 to 25 knots they just wander all over the place. Maybe if you had a
full length keel or something it might help.
"drunkboat" has nearly been spun that many times in a big following sea that
most won't go out with him if there are more than a metre seas running. Like
I said, on a 45MPH boat on a fresh water lake.......... no worries.
BruceM

 

[Larry]

I would say it is impractable.
Chap has an auto-pilot here in Sth Aust on a 38footer and believe me it is
the worst boat in the fleet. The boat has the nickname of "drunkboat".
Firstly, those jets are OK for 18 footers going like a bat-out-of-hell up a
fast flowing river & doing spin-outs in their own length like in NZ tourist
fjiords.
At 18 to 25 knots they just wander all over the place. Maybe if you had a
full length keel or something it might help.
"drunkboat" has nearly been spun that many times in a big following sea that
most won't go out with him if there are more than a metre seas running. Like
I said, on a 45MPH boat on a fresh water lake.......... no worries.
BruceM

A few years ago I was on a short cruise in a 44' mv in Bermuda. It was
equipped with an autopilot - a Raymarine, I think. We were in fairly light
seas, but it handled really well. (the Capt. let me take the wheel for a
while) Of course since there wasn't much of a sea, that might have been
the reason.

My very limited understanding of autopilots is that they have to be matched
to the boat. The critical parameter is something I'd call "damping" - how
much rudder is applied for a given deviation and how much rudder behavior
is anticipated. Another factor might be whether the reference is a
fluxgate compass or a NEMA stream from a GPS.

Do you know much about the "drunkboat"? Was it a do-it-yourself or
professional installation? What equipment?

As I said earlier, this might be a futile exercise - it appears that nobody
has even tried it.

I don't tend towards going like a bat out of hell! If I lived closer to a
large body of water, I'd probably have a nice sailboat in the 30 - 40'
range, but they don't trailer very well among the lakes, which, as I said,
can be shallow...

Thanks for your comments

 

[BruceM]

Sorry I don't know the construction history of "drunkboat" but I'm sure that
everything is still as it was when constructed. The problem is not so much
with the auto pilot as it is to do with the jet.
Have you ever let a high pressure hose go seen how it goes back & forth?
The effect on the last foot of hose is determined on the direction the hose
was pointing milliseconds before, not where it's pointing now.
The effect on the boat is IDENTICAL to what happens to the hose. Of course
steering by hand you tend to anticipate the "direction of thrust" & can
counteract BEFORE it happens. (if you are on the ball)
The auto pilot only reacts after it is determined that it is offcourse &
also off by a certain amount off course. In other words, much too late.
There might be a brand that can be set with quicker react time or something,
but I'm not sure.
I guess after all is said & done that if you got given one for Chrissy, then
I'd still put it on your boat. Just don't expect it to go "as the crow
flies" as us Aussies say.
BruceM

 

[Michael Ohlhorst]

my promblems setting up an Autopilot to my 10foot tube tender was the
compass.
the ractions of the compass where to worse to use it.
The semiregide inflatable with 40HP Johnsen is rigged with a hydraulik
steering system and the hydraulik pump works fine.
when the boot hurts in the sea my small compass ist circeling and the
fluxgate of the autopilot do not deliver usefull data sets.
The Autopilot ill tried was a small DANAHELM unit the first fluxgate has
aircoils and the second was oil filled. The idear adapting NMEA Data from a
GPS Handheld could work but the time to patch the software of the autopilot
to get it work would be to long for me.

Michael from Germany

Sorry I don't know the construction history of "drunkboat" but I'm sure that
everything is still as it was when constructed. The problem is not so much
with the auto pilot as it is to do with the jet.
Have you ever let a high pressure hose go seen how it goes back & forth?
The effect on the last foot of hose is determined on the direction the hose
was pointing milliseconds before, not where it's pointing now.
The effect on the boat is IDENTICAL to what happens to the hose. Of course
steering by hand you tend to anticipate the "direction of thrust" & can
counteract BEFORE it happens. (if you are on the ball)
The auto pilot only reacts after it is determined that it is offcourse &
also off by a certain amount off course. In other words, much too late.
There might be a brand that can be set with quicker react time or something,
but I'm not sure.
I guess after all is said & done that if you got given one for Chrissy, then
I'd still put it on your boat. Just don't expect it to go "as the crow
flies" as us Aussies say.
BruceM


it

is

had

a

sea

that

running.

 

[Larry]

Sorry I don't know the construction history of "drunkboat" but I'm sure that
everything is still as it was when constructed. The problem is not so much
with the auto pilot as it is to do with the jet.
Have you ever let a high pressure hose go seen how it goes back & forth?
The effect on the last foot of hose is determined on the direction the hose
was pointing milliseconds before, not where it's pointing now.
The effect on the boat is IDENTICAL to what happens to the hose. Of course
steering by hand you tend to anticipate the "direction of thrust" & can
counteract BEFORE it happens. (if you are on the ball)
The auto pilot only reacts after it is determined that it is offcourse &
also off by a certain amount off course. In other words, much too late.
There might be a brand that can be set with quicker react time or something,
but I'm not sure.
I guess after all is said & done that if you got given one for Chrissy, then
I'd still put it on your boat. Just don't expect it to go "as the crow
flies" as us Aussies say.
BruceM

Thanks, Bruce,

I recall from years ago that handling large craft was very much the same
thing: you applied rudder and the reaction was delayed. Stopping was
similar - you approached slowly and with caution and reversed engines well
before you wanted to stop. All of this is what I generically call
"damping" - anticipation of the effect and a delayed reaction to change.
Now my experience with autopilots is practically nil - the only time I used
one was very brief and basically it just kept the boat on course. I had
hoped that when you set up an autopilot, that you could trim the amount of
steerage. Are you saying that you can't?

Best,

 

[Larry]

my promblems setting up an Autopilot to my 10foot tube tender was the
compass.
the ractions of the compass where to worse to use it.
The semiregide inflatable with 40HP Johnsen is rigged with a hydraulik
steering system and the hydraulik pump works fine.
when the boot hurts in the sea my small compass ist circeling and the
fluxgate of the autopilot do not deliver usefull data sets.
The Autopilot ill tried was a small DANAHELM unit the first fluxgate has
aircoils and the second was oil filled. The idear adapting NMEA Data from a
GPS Handheld could work but the time to patch the software of the autopilot
to get it work would be to long for me.

Michael from Germany

Hi Michael,

Ok, so then you're saying that the data delivered by fluxgate compasses
was the problem. I can understand that, particularly as a small boat
always has far more pitch and roll than a larger craft. (My boat is small
as well) In fact, I recall something said by the owner of the boat I was
aboard saying something like autopilot wasn't that useful in rough weather,
but that might well have been because you tend to need to head into it and
it shifts, while an autopilot might want to take you in a different
direction.

I am pretty sure that modern autopilots can and do accept NMEA data. That
must be the case as some advertise that they work with GPS to follow a
plotted course, so it would appear as if there wouldn't need to be any
modification.

I have the skills necessary to modify software (I'm a software engineer by
trade) but I doubt companies would release the source.

Thanks for sharing your experiences.

 

[Michael Ohlhorst]

Hi Larry,

Ok, so then you're saying that the data delivered by fluxgate compasses
was the problem. I can understand that, particularly as a small boat
always has far more pitch and roll than a larger craft. (My boat is small
as well) In fact, I recall something said by the owner of the boat I was
aboard saying something like autopilot wasn't that useful in rough weather,
but that might well have been because you tend to need to head into it and
it shifts, while an autopilot might want to take you in a different
direction.

I would not say that the small tender is doing more pitch and roll than my
bigship.
The reason for the worse funktions are the hard knoking when it falls back
to the water
its nearly flying most of the time 40HP at 300Kilo gramms.

I am pretty sure that modern autopilots can and do accept NMEA data. That
must be the case as some advertise that they work with GPS to follow a
plotted course, so it would appear as if there wouldn't need to be any
modification.

The first promlem could be that the GPS data is comming out once a second
wile the compass
Data are 5 to 20 times a second appears.
All autopilots i have seen are using the compass for the direction and do
the correction with the
cross track information only.

I have the skills necessary to modify software (I'm a software engineer by
trade) but I doubt companies would release the source.

For my old DANAHELM it was the reason to remove it from the ship and replace
it with an
robertson AP3000 Danahelm is gone out of the business and i had not the time
to repair the
compass for a while. Later i saw that only one TTL in the output has blown.
The Danahelm uses an 80535 as the main prozessor so it could not be too
difficult to disassemble the
operating software. the robertson uses also an 8051 derivat.

Michael

 

[Michael Ohlhorst]

Hi Larry,

I recall from years ago that handling large craft was very much the same
thing: you applied rudder and the reaction was delayed. Stopping was
similar - you approached slowly and with caution and reversed engines well
before you wanted to stop. All of this is what I generically call
"damping" - anticipation of the effect and a delayed reaction to change.
Now my experience with autopilots is practically nil - the only time I used
one was very brief and basically it just kept the boat on course. I had
hoped that when you set up an autopilot, that you could trim the amount of
steerage. Are you saying that you can't?

As i am going most often alone with my Boat i have to use the autopilot for
a lot
of times when i am busy.
The worst situation was a trip at the german north sea between Cuxhafen at
the Elbe and
Helgoland the distance is around 70 miles open water. The weather has turned
from bad to
impossible and as my flybridge was not ready to use i had to steer form
inside. The lithouse of
Helgoland was in sight but i was not able to steer a usefull course. The
waves are so strong that
my dutch 52feet Motorboot was doing 90 degree course changes within 5
seconds. The only way for me was
using my robertson AP3000 sitting on the sofa and hoping the best -which
lasts 5 hours as the boat is doing around
8 knots in good conditions.

The trimming of an autopilot is the most horrible thing to do. When it is
funktioning in calm conditions it is not working
in rough sea and when its working there your boat is moving like a drunken
sailor at a mirror sea.

Michael

 

[BruceM]

Like Michael said Larry,........... Every boat & every sea (following, head,
etc) has it's own particular set of behavioral problems or idiosynchrosies.
I think as long as you don't expect it to be a really sucessful setup, then
you won't be disappointed.
I had a chat today with a pro fisherman & he said that if you set it too
"tight", all your equipment in the steering department would be "overworked"
trying to keep you on course that it wouldn't last long.
Much of his work is in seas with a diagonal swell on his way out & back from
the grounds. His auto-pilot is set with a wide path so that the boats
natural veering behaviour on the up side is allowed to "happen" without
correcting so that the natural opposite veering in the other direction on
the down side is back to within the course allowed. Hope I'm making sense.
If the pilot has to "fight" it one way, it then has to also "fight" it the
other.
That is with a boat that has a decent skeg & a big rudder. Probably similar
to a yacht with a decent keel. Imagine a yacht without a keel?
All in all, with a jet, don't expect too much.

 

[Larry]

Like Michael said Larry,........... Every boat & every sea (following, head,
etc) has it's own particular set of behavioral problems or idiosynchrosies.
I think as long as you don't expect it to be a really sucessful setup, then
you won't be disappointed.
I had a chat today with a pro fisherman & he said that if you set it too
"tight", all your equipment in the steering department would be "overworked"
trying to keep you on course that it wouldn't last long.
Much of his work is in seas with a diagonal swell on his way out & back from
the grounds. His auto-pilot is set with a wide path so that the boats
natural veering behaviour on the up side is allowed to "happen" without
correcting so that the natural opposite veering in the other direction on
the down side is back to within the course allowed. Hope I'm making sense.
If the pilot has to "fight" it one way, it then has to also "fight" it the
other.
That is with a boat that has a decent skeg & a big rudder. Probably similar
to a yacht with a decent keel. Imagine a yacht without a keel?
All in all, with a jet, don't expect too much.

Thanks to all,

I've done a bit more research in addition to what I've read here and
pretty much decided to scrap the idea. Bombardier is just about useless -
virtually no technical help at all. When I asked them about adding an
autopilot, they said they would not help and would pull the warranty if I
did. I already had a brand new engine blow, and the deaIer had to fight
with them to replace the engine with a new one. I think I'll no doubt sell
it next season while the new engine is still working. First and last
experience with Bombardier. I added trim tabs, and they have helped it a
bit, but after visiting the Hinckley site, I am remembering what real boats
are like....

For now, I guess I'll just use my knee to hold the wheel while I eat my
sandwich! I'll start a new thread about the new boat in a different
boating group.

 

[Dan Krueger]

I jumped in late here but if your goal is to let go of the wheel and have the
boat continue to go straight I would suggest going with a "no-feedback" steering
system. If you have Teleflex steering components already, it can be retrofitted
pretty cheap. I have it on my boat and it's great. It's a "poor man's"
hydraulic steering and ideal for lower HP ranges. I'm not too familiar with
jets but I would imagine that hydraulic steering would be an option anyway.

In the interest of safety, you wouldn't want to let go of the wheel at any high
speeds or in rough conditions. For me, it's great because I can make a quick
run to the cooler or the washdown while idling back on the way to the slip on
the ICW. The other bonus is that at high speeds the wheel doesn't pull to one
side and when you accelerate quickly you don't have that engine torque on the
wheel.

Dan


Larry wrote:

 

[Cantide]

I have a Bombardier Utopia 185 jet boat, powered by a Merc 100hp DFI jet.
That is an 18.5 ft bowrider runabout. I would like to add an autopilot to
it. Anyone have any recommendations? Has anyone added an autopilot to a
jet boat and have any suggestions? Thanks

The more financially endowed salmon fishermen around here have been
installing TR-1 autopilots on their kicker motors. A friend of mine
has one on his boat, it's very impressive... The unit can be used for
the main engine as well as the kicker, with the approprate actuators.
Check http://www.nautamatic.com/

Dan

 

[Larry]

I jumped in late here but if your goal is to let go of the wheel and have the
boat continue to go straight I would suggest going with a "no-feedback" steering
system. If you have Teleflex steering components already, it can be retrofitted
pretty cheap. I have it on my boat and it's great. It's a "poor man's"
hydraulic steering and ideal for lower HP ranges. I'm not too familiar with
jets but I would imagine that hydraulic steering would be an option anyway.

In the interest of safety, you wouldn't want to let go of the wheel at any high
speeds or in rough conditions. For me, it's great because I can make a quick
run to the cooler or the washdown while idling back on the way to the slip on
the ICW. The other bonus is that at high speeds the wheel doesn't pull to one
side and when you accelerate quickly you don't have that engine torque on the
wheel.

Dan

I don't know which steering components are installed and Bombardier (the
manufacturer) won't tell me. I believe they use a cable system of some
kind. I'm kind of fed up with them and will probably sell the boat this
summer and get a real boat. (sarcasm) . I did a quick Google for
Teleflex, though and got a bunch of information. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Larry]

The more financially endowed salmon fishermen around here have been
installing TR-1 autopilots on their kicker motors. A friend of mine
has one on his boat, it's very impressive... The unit can be used for
the main engine as well as the kicker, with the approprate actuators.
Check http://www.nautamatic.com/

Dan

Thanks, Dan,

I had looked at them. They're really pricey and I can't get an answer
about retrofit.