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"Impossible" EM space drive?

B

Bill Miller

Richard Herring said:
It's implicit in the newsgroup names, the thread title and the actual
paper under discussion. *Electromagnetic* space drive. Not electrogravic
or gravimagnetic or <insert alphabet soup here>...

tsk tsk We have discussed the similarities between EM and gravity many, many
times on this group. Far too many, I would suggest, for us to categorically
dismiss gravitation as being "irrelevant" when we are discussing ideas about
accelerating masses. That's kinda what gravity does, isn't it?
Don't let the R-word confuse you: there are two distinct theories labelled
"relativity". The relativity being invoked here is _special_ relativity,
as it relates to electrodynamics. The only forces being considered are
electromagnetic.

_General_ relativity is a theory of gravity; special relativity is not.

It sounds like you may not have read any of Jefimenko's work on gravitation.
If you had, you would have noted that he has derived many (all?) aspects of
GR without delving into GR or SR. Just logical arguments derived from the
simple concept of Causality. So, if gravitational effects can be derived
without GR or SR, then it's not TOO much of a stretch to consider that the
inverse might be true.
--
Richard Herring

Bill
 
A

Aetherist

It's the "handwaving" part that is the fundamental question here! In
particular one has to ask the question if relativity can produce a
differential in radiation pressure by reason of differences in wave
propagation velocities. My point is and has been that if the author is
simply handwaving then it should be simple to look at his derivation
and say, Hey! Look right HERE, this is a bunch of handwaving! But as
far as I can tell nobody (me included) has bothered to do that.

Easy enough to do.

(a) Using eqn (1) to justify the dependence of radiation pressure on wave
speed is crap - v in (1) is _not_ wave velocity. This is worse than
handwaving.

(b) What is the difference in the force acting on the end plates (in the
rest frame of the resonator)? With propagation constant beta, wavenumber k
(which will be the free-space wavenumber), power P, angular frequency w,
and phase and group velocities vp and vg the force acting on an endplate
is F = 2P*beta/(ck) = 2P*beta/w = 2P/vp = 2P*vg/c^2. Therefore, equation
(6) is correct. The derivation, however, from the radiation pressure of a
beam at normal incidence, is handwaving, and looks wrong. Specifically,
the text between (3) and (4) appears to be using a result from [3] (alas,
not available via IEEE, and google scholar doesn't provide it - note that
the title given is probably wrong, so don't depend on it for searching),
which is either (i) a result for non-perpendicular incidence or (ii) for a
beam in a dielectric medium. Neither is mentioned. If (ii), the result is
wrong (it's 2 time the Abraham momentum of the beam, which is _not_ equal
to the force on the reflector). So, handwaving, but yielding the correct
result.

(c) Bottom of pg (4). Since with the resonator in steady-state, the
time-averaged force on each endplate is constant, why not just use F1 - F2
as the force difference? To use the relativistic velocity transformation
formula is needless, and potentially misleading (consider, for example,
the force-on-moving-stars paradox). Just find the thrust in the rest frame
of the resonator, and, if the resonator is moving fast enough, then use
the relativistic transformation law to find the thrust in the frame of
interest. At the top of page (5), "each operating within its own reference
frame" is handwaving of the worst kind - it's just wrong.

(d) Page 6, following figure 2. The statement that no force will be
exerted on a reflection-free interface due to a beam entering a dielectric
medium is wrong. This has been experimentally falsified (OK, the
experiment would have had some reflection, but you can compensate for that
by putting the beam through the interface both ways - the reflection force
would change direction, but other forces would not). The theory for this
was all done in the 1970s (if not earlier). Also, this claim directly
opposes the author's (correct, but note the problems with using the
Abraham force to predict the radiation pressure) claim that the momentum
flux of the beam changes upon entry into the dielectric medium.

(e) Use of the Abraham force only to predict the force on the
dielectric-immersed endplate is wrong. Note experiments done by R. V.
Jones (1948, and later, iirc 1960s).

(f) Entire paper: the force on the tapered walls of the waveguide is
ignored. Consider the vacuum-filled case: the force on the large endplate
is F = 2P*beta1/w (my P = Q*author's P, being the power flux in
the resonator, not the power provided by the microwave source), and F =
2P*beta2/w on the small plate. Note that the overall effect of the tapered
section is to convert beta1 to beta2, while leaving the wavenumber
unchanged. This requires the wavevector to change direction, and there is
a resultant radiation pressure force on the tapered section. This force
cannot be handwaved away, as it results from exactly the same process that
gives rise to the force on the endplates: a change in direction of the
wavevector. This force is equal to F = 2P*(beta2-beta1)/w, for a total
force of zero. Since the radiation pressure forces on the walls of a
vacuum-filled non-absorbing stationary waveguide result from the change in
the direction of the wavevector, it is instructive to consider propagation
in a closed path from point A to one end plate, reflection to the other,
and back to A - the wavevector at A is equal to the wavevector at A, in
both magnitude and direction, and hence the total force is equal to zero.

So, plenty of handwaving, claims that have been demonstrated to be wrong
by experiments done decades ago, a bizarre, un-necessary, and probably
wrong application of relativistic transformations, and the crucial error
of ignoring the force on the tapered section of the waveguide.

What more is needed?

However, if somebody wants to build it to test it, let them go ahead!
Cheap enough to do out of curiosity if one has the time available (and
likely enough to lead to publication in New Scientist, even if only as an
experimental refutation of the original NS publication). Of course, if the
would-be builders are deliberately scamming investors, then that's another
story.

Hi Timo,

This is not the first I've seen this design. IIRC some fifteen years back
there was an AIAA paper on this. Also, here are some related resources,

http://arxiv.org/abs/0802.3721v1

(I think this is the AIAA paper)
http://www.aiaa.org/content.cfm?pageid=406&gTable=mtgpaper&gID=81596

http://www.aiaa.org/content.cfm?pageid=406&gTable=mtgpaper&gID=56066

Bottom line, it'll work...
 
T

Timo A. Nieminen

Hi Timo,

This is not the first I've seen this design. IIRC some fifteen years back
there was an AIAA paper on this.

Hopefully not by the same author - the lapses would be much less
forgivable. If it's over a decade old, why haven't the errors been
corrected? Why hasn't the force on the tapered section of the waveguide
been considered? This last point is the critical one - it's the most
important, and obvious, error.

If the earlier version was by different authors, and sank into obscurity
without working (it wouldn't be hard to build it, would it?), it's a
strong indication that it doesn't work.
Also, here are some related resources,

http://arxiv.org/abs/0802.3721v1

Interesting [1], but hardly related. The closest that it comes to it is
discussing, e.g., the force exerted by a solenoid on a charged particle.
Clearly related to electromagnetically-accelerated-exhaust drives, but
nothing to do with the "drive" discussed above.

That hydrodynamic/electromagnetic analogies work so well suggests that the
proposed device won't work. Waves within a fluid enclosed inside a rigid
container aren't going to make the container move through empty space, are
they?

"Sorry, no results were found."

Uses an electric arc discharge to ablate a block of teflon, and spits it
out one end. What does this have to do with the "EM drive" being
discussed?

Why would you expect it to work?

(IIRC, there's another thing to watch for in the paper - the author's Q is
not the usual Q (for quality factor) of a resonator.)

Now, if somebody wants to develop a real working funky EM drive, perhaps
they should consider the "runaway" solutions to the motion of a charged
particle subject to radiation reaction.

[1] Not read this in detail yet, but it isn't a surprise that they find a
Galilei-relativistic force law. What else would you expect when coming
from (Galilei-relativistic) hydrodynamics? Even less of a surprise when
one considers that Maxwell-Hertz-Heaviside electrodynamics was
Galilei-relativistic, not Lorentz-relativistic.

Anyway, thanks for the interesting paper. Interesting looking references,
too.
 
S

Salmon Egg

Uncle Al said:
Outhouse basement, it won't work...

In principle, it does work, but so poorly that there is no point to
using it. It turns out that you are better off carrying along inert
material you spew out at lower speed for the same energy content. That
is what an ion engine does.

In a sense, you have an impedance matching problem. You should eject at
the same speed you are traveling. Light is too fast, heavy combustion
products may be too slow.

Bill
 
A

Aetherist

In principle, it does work, but so poorly that there is no point to
using it. It turns out that you are better off carrying along inert
material you spew out at lower speed for the same energy content. That
is what an ion engine does.

Exactly! How much momentum can you get from an EM pulse striking an
antenna????
 
A

Aetherist

Hopefully not by the same author - the lapses would be much less
forgivable. If it's over a decade old, why haven't the errors been
corrected? Why hasn't the force on the tapered section of the waveguide
been considered? This last point is the critical one - it's the most
important, and obvious, error.

It is impractical since, while it works, it generates so little
thrust that mass needed to build it (let alone, any payload)
means the acceleration is almost non-existent... Try calc...ing
the momentum transfer, even assuming 100%.
If the earlier version was by different authors, and sank into obscurity
without working (it wouldn't be hard to build it, would it?), it's a
strong indication that it doesn't work.

There a subtle but significant difference between doesn't work and
impractical.
Also, here are some related resources,

http://arxiv.org/abs/0802.3721v1

Interesting [1], but hardly related. The closest that it comes to it is
discussing, e.g., the force exerted by a solenoid on a charged particle.
Clearly related to electromagnetically-accelerated-exhaust drives, but
nothing to do with the "drive" discussed above.

That hydrodynamic/electromagnetic analogies work so well suggests that the
proposed device won't work. Waves within a fluid enclosed inside a rigid
container aren't going to make the container move through empty space, are
they?

There is no such thing as rigid to the EM field. The AIAA article I
remember (I don't have any copy and it has been at least 15 years)
described a basic omni-directional pulse transmitter and a conic
receiving antenna as the momentum collector. Which, if I understood
the layout of this one, are very similar.

"Sorry, no results were found."

Uses an electric arc discharge to ablate a block of teflon, and spits it
out one end. What does this have to do with the "EM drive" being
discussed?

Why would you expect it to work?

(IIRC, there's another thing to watch for in the paper - the author's Q is
not the usual Q (for quality factor) of a resonator.)

Now, if somebody wants to develop a real working funky EM drive, perhaps
they should consider the "runaway" solutions to the motion of a charged
particle subject to radiation reaction.

[1] Not read this in detail yet, but it isn't a surprise that they find a
Galilei-relativistic force law. What else would you expect when coming
from (Galilei-relativistic) hydrodynamics? Even less of a surprise when
one considers that Maxwell-Hertz-Heaviside electrodynamics was
Galilei-relativistic, not Lorentz-relativistic.

Anyway, thanks for the interesting paper. Interesting looking references,
too.

There are some very novel and interesting concepts in this area. The
classic propellent-less drive is a simple rod which has a spring coiled
around its center. On each end is mounted a stop plug. There are two
plungers fitted on either side of the spring that can travel along the
rod. The plungers are compressed against the spring and then released.
they then travel in opposite directions along the rod until impacting
the stop plugs. One stop lug is metal, the other a cotton wad. The
difference in efficency of transfering the plunger's energy to the
rod, rather tan the cotton and rod, will propel the rod in one direction.

This also will work, but so far as I know, has found no practical
applications...
a
 
D

Dirk Bruere at NeoPax

Aetherist said:
Hopefully not by the same author - the lapses would be much less
forgivable. If it's over a decade old, why haven't the errors been
corrected? Why hasn't the force on the tapered section of the waveguide
been considered? This last point is the critical one - it's the most
important, and obvious, error.

It is impractical since, while it works, it generates so little
thrust that mass needed to build it (let alone, any payload)
means the acceleration is almost non-existent... Try calc...ing
the momentum transfer, even assuming 100%.
If the earlier version was by different authors, and sank into obscurity
without working (it wouldn't be hard to build it, would it?), it's a
strong indication that it doesn't work.

There a subtle but significant difference between doesn't work and
impractical.
Also, here are some related resources,

http://arxiv.org/abs/0802.3721v1
Interesting [1], but hardly related. The closest that it comes to it is
discussing, e.g., the force exerted by a solenoid on a charged particle.
Clearly related to electromagnetically-accelerated-exhaust drives, but
nothing to do with the "drive" discussed above.

That hydrodynamic/electromagnetic analogies work so well suggests that the
proposed device won't work. Waves within a fluid enclosed inside a rigid
container aren't going to make the container move through empty space, are
they?

There is no such thing as rigid to the EM field. The AIAA article I
remember (I don't have any copy and it has been at least 15 years)
described a basic omni-directional pulse transmitter and a conic
receiving antenna as the momentum collector. Which, if I understood
the layout of this one, are very similar.
"Sorry, no results were found."
Uses an electric arc discharge to ablate a block of teflon, and spits it
out one end. What does this have to do with the "EM drive" being
discussed?

Why would you expect it to work?

(IIRC, there's another thing to watch for in the paper - the author's Q is
not the usual Q (for quality factor) of a resonator.)

Now, if somebody wants to develop a real working funky EM drive, perhaps
they should consider the "runaway" solutions to the motion of a charged
particle subject to radiation reaction.

[1] Not read this in detail yet, but it isn't a surprise that they find a
Galilei-relativistic force law. What else would you expect when coming
from (Galilei-relativistic) hydrodynamics? Even less of a surprise when
one considers that Maxwell-Hertz-Heaviside electrodynamics was
Galilei-relativistic, not Lorentz-relativistic.

Anyway, thanks for the interesting paper. Interesting looking references,
too.

There are some very novel and interesting concepts in this area. The
classic propellent-less drive is a simple rod which has a spring coiled
around its center. On each end is mounted a stop plug. There are two
plungers fitted on either side of the spring that can travel along the
rod. The plungers are compressed against the spring and then released.
they then travel in opposite directions along the rod until impacting
the stop plugs. One stop lug is metal, the other a cotton wad. The
difference in efficency of transfering the plunger's energy to the
rod, rather tan the cotton and rod, will propel the rod in one direction.

This also will work, but so far as I know, has found no practical
applications...
a

It won't work in free space. All that happens is that the centre of mass
is shifted back and forth.

--
Dirk

http://www.transcendence.me.uk/ - Transcendence UK
http://www.theconsensus.org/ - A UK political party
http://www.onetribe.me.uk/wordpress/?cat=5 - Our podcasts on weird stuff
 
T

Timo A. Nieminen

It is impractical since, while it works, it generates so little
thrust that mass needed to build it (let alone, any payload)
means the acceleration is almost non-existent... Try calc...ing
the momentum transfer, even assuming 100%.

Zero is very little thrust. The proposed drive _doesn't_ radiate. For
"standard" electromagnetic-only propulsion, I agree that thrust=P/c sucks
for efficiency. (Which doesn't mean it's always impractical. There can be
specialised application where it is the best solution, especially where we
are interested in torque and not thrust. Consider the practical uses of
radioactive decay thermoelectric generators - not efficient, but sometimes
the best usable choice.)
There a subtle but significant difference between doesn't work and
impractical.

Which is my point.

It is claimed in the paper that the _ideal_ device works. My comments
addressed the basis of that claim. More below.
Also, here are some related resources,

http://arxiv.org/abs/0802.3721v1

Interesting [1], but hardly related. The closest that it comes to it is
discussing, e.g., the force exerted by a solenoid on a charged particle.
Clearly related to electromagnetically-accelerated-exhaust drives, but
nothing to do with the "drive" discussed above.

That hydrodynamic/electromagnetic analogies work so well suggests that the
proposed device won't work. Waves within a fluid enclosed inside a rigid
container aren't going to make the container move through empty space, are
they?

There is no such thing as rigid to the EM field. The AIAA article I
remember (I don't have any copy and it has been at least 15 years)
described a basic omni-directional pulse transmitter and a conic
receiving antenna as the momentum collector. Which, if I understood
the layout of this one, are very similar.

Completely enclosed, so that there is no escaping radiation?

Sure, in theoretical practice (assuming classical radiation and treating
the conducting walls as a classical conducting continuum), some radiation
will escape. Sure, in practice, the thing will heat up, and thermally
radiate. These are irrelevant to the claims made in the paper, which are
that the device will experience a non-zero force, even with no escaping
radiation or thermal radiation. The theoretical treatment assumes an ideal
"electromagnetically rigid" resonator, and predicts a force.

Again, the paper treated the ideal device. If you made the real device,
and put it into interplanetary space, you'll see some thrust, due to
radiation pressure due to sunlight and pushing by the solar wind. Then
some thrust due to asymmetric thermal radiation or asymmetric leakage
(likely directly away from the side the microwave source is on). This
doesn't mean that the device works.

If I build a man-powered flapping-wing fly, and claim I can fly (as in
really fly, not glide or soar) with it, and the best I can do is fall a
little more slowly than I would without it, it doesn't mean the device
works. If I design a "highly-efficient" LED, and all I get is
unmeasureable (but theoretically present) visible radiation from thermal
radiation due to dissipated power heating the device, the device doesn't
work.

The prediction is that the proposed EM drive gives a thrust of F,
in a particular direction for a power input of P. If the observed thrust
is F/x, where x is a _large_ number, in a different direction, this is not
a case of the device working inefficiently; it's a case of the device not
working at all.

You don't want to consider the idealised device? You want to explicitly
consider all of the spurious effects? Note that this kind of idealisation
is Galileo's biggest contribution to physics, his big break with
Aristotleanism.

The author considered the ideal device, and I'm content to restrict
discussion of the paper to the ideal device.

"Sorry, no results were found."

Uses an electric arc discharge to ablate a block of teflon, and spits it
out one end. What does this have to do with the "EM drive" being
discussed?

Why would you expect it to work?

(IIRC, there's another thing to watch for in the paper - the author's Q is
not the usual Q (for quality factor) of a resonator.)

Now, if somebody wants to develop a real working funky EM drive, perhaps
they should consider the "runaway" solutions to the motion of a charged
particle subject to radiation reaction.

[1] Not read this in detail yet, but it isn't a surprise that they find a
Galilei-relativistic force law. What else would you expect when coming
from (Galilei-relativistic) hydrodynamics? Even less of a surprise when
one considers that Maxwell-Hertz-Heaviside electrodynamics was
Galilei-relativistic, not Lorentz-relativistic.

Anyway, thanks for the interesting paper. Interesting looking references,
too.

There are some very novel and interesting concepts in this area. The
classic propellent-less drive is a simple rod which has a spring coiled
around its center. On each end is mounted a stop plug. There are two
plungers fitted on either side of the spring that can travel along the
rod. The plungers are compressed against the spring and then released.
they then travel in opposite directions along the rod until impacting
the stop plugs. One stop lug is metal, the other a cotton wad. The
difference in efficency of transfering the plunger's energy to the
rod, rather tan the cotton and rod, will propel the rod in one direction.

This also will work, but so far as I know, has found no practical
applications...

Why do you think this would work? Was Newton so wrong?

Isn't the standard version of this drive one in which the internal moving
mass moves slowly from A to B and then quickly from B to A? Then, when you
build it and test it on Earth, external friction lets it crawl along.
 
T

Timo A. Nieminen

As much as is carried by the sum of the absorbed photons.

.... and scattered photons. (Well, for the simple case of omni-directional
scattering aka re-radiation.)
 
A

Aetherist

On Sun, 5 Oct 2008, Aetherist wrote:


Zero is very little thrust. The proposed drive _doesn't_ radiate.
For "standard" electromagnetic-only propulsion, I agree that
thrust=P/c sucks for efficiency. (Which doesn't mean it's always
impractical. There can be specialised application where it is the
best solution, especially where we are interested in torque and
not thrust. Consider the practical uses of radioactive decay
thermoelectric generators - not efficient, but sometimes the best
usable choice.)

Yeah, but as a propulsive device I don't see a future here, even
working as descibed.
Which is my point.

Well, we'll let the Chinese find out, and agree to disagree here.
However, I don't think that they would invest any effort in it if
it was as easy to see it wouldn't work as you say.
It is claimed in the paper that the _ideal_ device works. My
comments addressed the basis of that claim. More below.
Also, here are some related resources,

http://arxiv.org/abs/0802.3721v1

Interesting [1], but hardly related. The closest that it comes to it is
discussing, e.g., the force exerted by a solenoid on a charged particle.
Clearly related to electromagnetically-accelerated-exhaust drives, but
nothing to do with the "drive" discussed above.

That hydrodynamic/electromagnetic analogies work so well suggests that the
proposed device won't work. Waves within a fluid enclosed inside a rigid
container aren't going to make the container move through empty space, are
they?

There is no such thing as rigid to the EM field. The AIAA article I
remember (I don't have any copy and it has been at least 15 years)
described a basic omni-directional pulse transmitter and a conic
receiving antenna as the momentum collector. Which, if I understood
the layout of this one, are very similar.

Completely enclosed, so that there is no escaping radiation?

OK, I went back and looked at this design. It is NOT identical to the AIAA
one I saw earlier. That one was an open design as described above. This
one is similar to TT Brown's Grad E capacitor designs. So without further
study I can't say since I assumed they principle was similar to the open
design I described. It might work though, and the Chinese appear to think
so.
Sure, in theoretical practice (assuming classical radiation and treating
the conducting walls as a classical conducting continuum), some radiation
will escape. Sure, in practice, the thing will heat up, and thermally
radiate. These are irrelevant to the claims made in the paper, which are
that the device will experience a non-zero force, even with no escaping
radiation or thermal radiation. The theoretical treatment assumes an ideal
"electromagnetically rigid" resonator, and predicts a force.

Again, the paper treated the ideal device. If you made the real device,
and put it into interplanetary space, you'll see some thrust, due to
radiation pressure due to sunlight and pushing by the solar wind. Then
some thrust due to asymmetric thermal radiation or asymmetric leakage
(likely directly away from the side the microwave source is on). This
doesn't mean that the device works.

If I build a man-powered flapping-wing fly, and claim I can fly (as in
really fly, not glide or soar) with it, and the best I can do is fall a
little more slowly than I would without it, it doesn't mean the device
works. If I design a "highly-efficient" LED, and all I get is
unmeasureable (but theoretically present) visible radiation from thermal
radiation due to dissipated power heating the device, the device doesn't
work.

The prediction is that the proposed EM drive gives a thrust of F,
in a particular direction for a power input of P. If the observed thrust
is F/x, where x is a _large_ number, in a different direction, this is not
a case of the device working inefficiently; it's a case of the device not
working at all.

You don't want to consider the idealised device? You want to explicitly
consider all of the spurious effects? Note that this kind of idealisation
is Galileo's biggest contribution to physics, his big break with
Aristotleanism.

The author considered the ideal device, and I'm content to restrict
discussion of the paper to the ideal device.
(I think this is the AIAA paper)
http://www.aiaa.org/content.cfm?pageid=406&gTable=mtgpaper&gID=81596

"Sorry, no results were found."

http://www.aiaa.org/content.cfm?pageid=406&gTable=mtgpaper&gID=56066

Uses an electric arc discharge to ablate a block of teflon, and spits it
out one end. What does this have to do with the "EM drive" being
discussed?

Why would you expect it to work?

(IIRC, there's another thing to watch for in the paper - the author's Q is
not the usual Q (for quality factor) of a resonator.)

Now, if somebody wants to develop a real working funky EM drive, perhaps
they should consider the "runaway" solutions to the motion of a charged
particle subject to radiation reaction.

[1] Not read this in detail yet, but it isn't a surprise that they find a
Galilei-relativistic force law. What else would you expect when coming
from (Galilei-relativistic) hydrodynamics? Even less of a surprise when
one considers that Maxwell-Hertz-Heaviside electrodynamics was
Galilei-relativistic, not Lorentz-relativistic.

Anyway, thanks for the interesting paper. Interesting looking references,
too.

There are some very novel and interesting concepts in this area. The
classic propellant-less drive is a simple rod which has a spring coiled
around its center. On each end is mounted a stop plug. There are two
plungers fitted on either side of the spring that can travel along the
rod. The plungers are compressed against the spring and then released.
they then travel in opposite directions along the rod until impacting
the stop plugs. One stop lug is metal, the other a cotton wad. The
difference in efficency of transfering the plunger's energy to the
rod, rather tan the cotton and rod, will propel the rod in one direction.

This also will work, but so far as I know, has found no practical
applications...

Why do you think this would work? Was Newton so wrong?

I don't. Momentum is alway a vector, energy is not. If I have two
equally energetic masses who's vectors are, intially in opposing
directions. Assuming that we imparted this energy as vectors at the
same time the the net momentum to the imparting device is zero.

The question is, how do we dissapate the kinetic energy. In the
description I provided, one side 'impacts' the rod stop with the rigid
plumger transfering all the plunger's energy (thus momentum) into
the rod stop along the line of travel. On the other end the cotton
acts to dissapate (randomize the plunger's momentum) into other
directions reducing the amount that is transfered back along the
original direction. In both cases, total momentum and energy is
conserved, just that some of the momentum at one end does not remain
coherrent.
Isn't the standard version of this drive one in which the internal moving
mass moves slowly from A to B and then quickly from B to A? Then, when you
build it and test it on Earth, external friction lets it crawl along.

No, this is not in the class of the 'Dean Drive' and will pass the free
hang test.
 
B

Bill Miller

Aetherist said:
<Snip...>

Well, we'll let the Chinese find out, and agree to disagree here.
However, I don't think that they would invest any effort in it if
it was as easy to see it wouldn't work as you say.

I can't resist!

The Chinese ALSO invested quite a lot of money building "compact"
Cross-Field MW antennas that "worked" by taking the cross product (ExH = S =
Power) of the E field AND the H field "caused" by Displacement Current.

So, the Chinese can make technical blunders just like the rest of us!

Bill
 
B

Benj

Point 1. So long as things are non-relativistic, nobody has a prayer
of making this work for all the usual reasons. The claim here is that
relativistic effects change the outcomes of Newton's laws. So yes,
Newton was wrong but ONLY for devices with relativistic speeds in
them, not for any hydrodynamic models or devices.

Point 2. The tapered part of the cone was ignored. This is really a
fatal error in the analysis in my opinion.

Point 3. While radiation pressure devices would theoretically work,
this one is sealed so it's not that kind of thing. It's a cavity which
means waves are going BOTH ways inside.
OK, I went back and looked at this design. It is NOT identical to the AIAA
one I saw earlier. That one was an open design as described above. This
one is similar to TT Brown's Grad E capacitor designs. So without further
study I can't say since I assumed they principle was similar to the open
design I described. It might work though, and the Chinese appear to think
so.

The TT Brown drive is of interest in the following way. In air the TT
Brown drive is basically an Ion wind device (you can buy one over at
the Sharper Image) with enough wind it could fly a light glider. The
fringe story is that the TT Brown device ALSO works in hard vacuum. Of
course we always have to raise the question how "hard" is thy vacuum?
If there are significant ions left behind then some thrust has to be
expected. Now IF and that is a VERY big "if" it is true that the TT
Brown device does work in hard vacuum, then it's clear that such a
device could be enclosed in a [large enough] conducting metal box, and
still produce thrust. In that case even though the TT Brown device is
electrostatic and the Chinese one claims to be electrodynamic, one
might see the famed unidirectional forces from a sealed electrical
device. However, I personally am not convinced that the TT Brown
device works in a hard vacuum. [But of course, I'm not saying it's
"impossible"!]
 
E

Eric Gisse

[...]
The TT Brown drive is of interest in the following way. In air the TT
Brown drive is basically an Ion wind device (you can buy one over at
the Sharper Image) with enough wind it could fly a light glider.  The
fringe story is that the TT Brown device ALSO works in hard vacuum.

The reason it is fringe is because that is /wrong/. Ion drives without
an ion source tend to not work.

[snip]
 
R

Richard Herring

In message said:
tsk tsk We have discussed the similarities between EM and gravity many, many
times on this group. Far too many, I would suggest, for us to categorically
dismiss gravitation as being "irrelevant" when we are discussing ideas about
accelerating masses.

Regardless of the similarities, real or imagined, it's irrelevant when
the claim is that conventional electromagnetism is doing the
accelerating.
That's kinda what gravity does, isn't it?

For a suitable definition of "kinda", maybe. Falling around the nearest
star isn't normally considered to be a "gravitational space drive". In
GR it isn't even considered to be acceleration. Gravitation doesn''t
provide a mechanism for using controlled external sources of energy to
power that acceleration, the way electromagnetism does.
It sounds like you may not have read any of Jefimenko's work on gravitation.
If you had, you would have noted that he has derived many (all?) aspects of
GR without delving into GR or SR. Just logical arguments derived from the
simple concept of Causality.

Basically he's seeing how far you can push Newton's model of gravity by
using the same re-formulation using retardation methods that he applied
to EM. From that, he has a theory which is either equivalent to
Einstein's, or is testably (in principle) different.
So, if gravitational effects can be derived
without GR or SR, then it's not TOO much of a stretch to consider that the
inverse might be true.

What's the "inverse" here?

It's not much of a stretch to consider that almost anything _might_ be
true. Speculation is cheap. Proving it is another matter.
 
R

Richard Herring

In message
I hope all you clowns that who actually trying to justify rejecting
papers you haven't even read with quick and dirty arguments such as
"everybody" knows E&M is conservative and the like are now properly
embarrassed by Timo showing you how it's supposed to be done!

Why? Because he has _confirmed_ the holes in the logic that the lack of
self-consistency between premises and conclusion implies must
necessarily be there?
 
B

Benj

Why? Because he has _confirmed_ the holes in the logic that the lack of
self-consistency between premises and conclusion implies must
necessarily be there?

You STILL don't get it you you? You can't prove ANYTHING by quoting
freshman physics texts or the bold assertions on PBS. And to do that
without even reading someone's arguments is the height of fraud. You
are saying in effect, "I am proud to say I know absolutely no details
about what this person is claiming, but I do know that I am so smart
and knowledgeable and physics is always so infallible that I don't
need to go any further than my own uninformed opinion to prove that
this won't work!"

Note that Timo did this RIGHT. He read the paper. He went in and found
some errors of logic in the proposed theory. And finally even after
doing that he STILL didn't say the thing was "impossible"! He said
you'd have to build it to prove it doesn't work. In other words Timo
did the SCIENCE. All the rest was people doing faith-based physics.
His conclusion was totally different from yours. Timo said, "Here are
some holes in the suggested theory, but to really test these ideas
you'd have to build it." You and Uncle Al and some others in effect
said, "I really don't know anything about how this device is supposed
to work in detail, but in my opinion it is impossible that it could
work." Timo did science, you did a political discussion.

The difference between what Timo did and what you are trying to say is
like night and day. Don't try to use his work to justify your own
laziness!
 
B

Benj

[...]
The TT Brown drive is of interest in the following way. In air the TT
Brown drive is basically an Ion wind device (you can buy one over at
the Sharper Image) with enough wind it could fly a light glider. The
fringe story is that the TT Brown device ALSO works in hard vacuum.

The reason it is fringe is because that is /wrong/. Ion drives without
an ion source tend to not work.

What is "wrong" is you. You have assumed the device is ONLY an ion
drive. Clearly in some cases it would work as one. But the claim has
also been made that it works in a hard vacuum. You are claiming that
this device in your opinion is ONLY an ion drive and thus cannot work.
The fringe claims it works in a vacuum which obviously means in that
mode it would not be an ion drive. [Actually it could be, but would
have to use it's own material rather than surrounding gas for ions]
You thus are saying that the discovery of any new principle (like
electrostatic propulsion in a vacuum) without your permission is
"impossible".

Did you notice that there is a subtle difference between "My opinion
is completely correct and everyone else is "wrong"" and the statement
"In my opinion this thing wouldn't work.". Obviously the only
scientific true test is to put the damn thing in a vacuum and see if
it still produces force. I see no evidence that your opinion is so
infallible that we should accept it without proof or question.

And while we are on a roll here, let me point out some shortcomings of
"infallible" "omniscient" physics.
1. Nobody from Newton on has the slightest clue what gravity "is".
Lots of mathematical descriptions of how it operates, but no models as
to what is the actual mechanism of that force.

2. Nobody has the slightest clue what a photon is. Again lots of very
strange mathematics describing truly weird behavior but no real models
or understanding of what a photon at the fundamental level actually is
doing.

3. Because of 1 and 2 above, nobody has the slightest clue if there is
some electrical or electromagnetic connection between gravity and E&M.
In other words could there possibly be SOME way to build a
"electrical" device that generates a localized gravitational field?
"Gravity plating" for a starship if you will. Nobody knows. BUT IF
such a thing were possible, then clearly by applying such a device to
an object in space and IF one finds NO Newtonian reaction back upon
the gravity field generator, [obviously action-reaction is not a "law"
that always must be obeyed] then one clearly has the unidirectional
thruster in question.

And given the total lack of knowledge in 1., 2. and 3., it should be
obvious that anyone asserting that such a device is "impossible" is a
clown.
 
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