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impendance matching

V

valentin tihomirov

This refers to long lines. Is it inherent to electronics only or can be
demonstrated by gas pressure in a preumatic system, for example? I want to
know more about the problem. I'm asking for any good
demonstrations/materials describing the topic.
 
J

John Woodgate

I read in sci.electronics.design that valentin tihomirov <valentin_NOSPA
[email protected]> wrote (in <[email protected]
berlin.de>) about 'impendance matching', on Thu, 29 Jan 2004:
This refers to long lines. Is it inherent to electronics only or can be
demonstrated by gas pressure in a preumatic system, for example? I want
to know more about the problem. I'm asking for any good
demonstrations/materials describing the topic.

Pneumatic systems are 'd.c.'. Think acoustics - organ pipes and such.
Then, yes, impedance matching, and the consequences of mismatching
(reflections, standing waves) apply.
 
R

Roy McCammon

valentin said:
This refers to long lines. Is it inherent to electronics only or can be
demonstrated by gas pressure in a preumatic system, for example? I want to
know more about the problem. I'm asking for any good
demonstrations/materials describing the topic.

ever hear of "water hammer"
 
J

John Larkin

This refers to long lines. Is it inherent to electronics only or can be
demonstrated by gas pressure in a preumatic system, for example? I want to
know more about the problem. I'm asking for any good
demonstrations/materials describing the topic.

Sure. Most any energy transmission medium - mechanical, acoustic,
pneumatic - has a characteristic impedance, and has potential for
reflection if it drives a mismatched load impedance. Not thermal
systems, though.

John
 
J

John Woodgate

I read in sci.electronics.design that Roy McCammon
ever hear of "water hammer"
Probably not: few people these days ever experience it, I think.
 
J

John Woodgate

I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <jjlarkin@highSNIPland
THIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote (in <blni1016bp9shelgqakijuhqto7dgg2fc5@
4ax.com>) about 'impendance matching', on Thu, 29 Jan 2004:
Sure. Most any energy transmission medium - mechanical, acoustic,
pneumatic - has a characteristic impedance, and has potential for
reflection if it drives a mismatched load impedance. Not thermal
systems, though.
IR in air is certainly reflected from polished metal. I suppose you mean
thermal conduction systems. H'mm: do the phonons bounce off a
sufficiently marked discontinuity?
 
J

John Larkin

I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <jjlarkin@highSNIPland
THIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote (in <blni1016bp9shelgqakijuhqto7dgg2fc5@
4ax.com>) about 'impendance matching', on Thu, 29 Jan 2004:
IR in air is certainly reflected from polished metal. I suppose you mean
thermal conduction systems. H'mm: do the phonons bounce off a
sufficiently marked discontinuity?

Yes, I meant thermal conductivity. That's a diffusion process, so
thermal systems have mass (capacitance), heat flow (current), and
temperature (voltage) but no equivalent of inductance. Not much fun,
dynamically.

I guess phonons do bounce, but they're embedded in such a lossy medium
it doesn't do much good. Macro-scale heat waves don't bounce.

You can sort of model thermal systems in Spice:

1 K/w == 1 ohm
1 K == 1 volt
1 second == 1 second
1 oz aluminum == 1 farad

which is actually pretty close.

John
 
R

Rileyesi

This refers to long lines. Is it inherent to electronics only or can be
demonstrated by gas pressure in a preumatic system, for example? I want to
know more about the problem. I'm asking for any good
demonstrations/materials describing the topic.

In a physics class one time, the teacher took long springs (like 'slinkys')
that had different stiffness rates. We spread them out over a table top and
hooked them up two at a time end to end (i.e. link one end of spring A to one
end of spring B making one continuous spring) using different combinations.
Then pull the combined springs until slightly taut and plucked one end. If
done right, you can see the differences in how much of the pulse is transferred
to the other spring. If I remember right, when the springs are the same almost
all of the pulse is transferred to the second spring. Other combinations
caused the pulse to reflect back with little of the pulse transferred to the
second spring.

Here, the spring rate or stiffness is analogous to impedance.

Right or wrong, I've always used this analogy when thinking about impedance
matching with regard to RF. When matched, more energy is transferred and less
is 'reflected' back to the source.
 
A

Active8

I read in sci.electronics.design that Roy McCammon

Probably not: few people these days ever experience it, I think.
Wasn't a water hammer also an old pump? I take it the one you're
referring too is that damn noisy plumbing problem easily cured with
a shorted stub.
 
J

James Meyer

Wasn't a water hammer also an old pump? I take it the one you're
referring too is that damn noisy plumbing problem easily cured with
a shorted stub.

Cured with a short _air_filled_ stub. When the cure stops working, you
shut the water off, remove the cap on the stub, and let it re-fill with air.

Jim
 
A

Active8

Cured with a short _air_filled_ stub. When the cure stops working, you
shut the water off, remove the cap on the stub, and let it re-fill with air.

Jim
Yeah, I know. Now that I think of it, it's an open stub. If it were
shorted, air, and then water would flow.
 
J

John Woodgate

I read in sci.electronics.design that Active8 <mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earth
Wasn't a water hammer also an old pump?

No, that a damp sheep - a hydraulic ram, and they are still in use. They
are 'zero-cost energy' devices. (I think that term is necessary, since
'free energy' has come to mean something else.)
I take it the one you're
referring too is that damn noisy plumbing problem easily cured with a
shorted stub.

Well, I don't think that's the right way, which is to eliminate the
cause, but ....
 
J

John Woodgate

I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <jjlarkin@highSNIPland
THIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote (in <ljui10h6fvnamc9u0fre754tphds8g8d88@
4ax.com>) about 'impendance matching', on Thu, 29 Jan 2004:
You can sort of model thermal systems in Spice:

1 K/w == 1 ohm
1 K == 1 volt
1 second == 1 second
1 oz aluminum == 1 farad

The Kelvin-Second-Ounce system of units! The CIPM will go ballistic!
(;-)
 
V

valentin tihomirov

I'm looking for more illustrations like this one. How wave is propagated in
wires and open air. How antennas (not closed loops) can emit e-m waves, how
critical length of a wire on PCB board depends on signal rise time. Any
good, comprehensive sources with beatiful illustrations.
 
I

Ian Buckner

John Woodgate said:
I read in sci.electronics.design that Roy McCammon

Probably not: few people these days ever experience it, I think.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

One of the basin taps in my daughter's apartment exhibits water
hammer when turned off sharply, the other goes into what I can
only describe as oscillation at certain tap openings (very loud
shrieking sound, can have intermittent bangs as well).

From the later responses about an air-filled stub being a cure,
would a water pressure regulator do the same job? Those have a
neoprene sac that you pressurise with air. (I think they're cute -
an entirely mechanical analog of a voltage regulator.)

Regards
Ian
 
J

John Woodgate

I read in sci.electronics.design that Ian Buckner
the other goes into what I can only describe as
oscillation at certain tap openings (very loud shrieking sound, can have
intermittent bangs as well).

Vibrating jumper.
 
R

Roy McCammon

John said:
Sure. Most any energy transmission medium - mechanical, acoustic,
pneumatic - has a characteristic impedance, and has potential for
reflection if it drives a mismatched load impedance. Not thermal
systems, though.

Conductive thermal systems are well modeled by an RC transmission
line (one in which the series resistance is much greater than
the series inductive reactance).
 
J

John Larkin

I'm looking for more illustrations like this one. How wave is propagated in
wires and open air. How antennas (not closed loops) can emit e-m waves, how
critical length of a wire on PCB board depends on signal rise time. Any
good, comprehensive sources with beatiful illustrations.

An obvious equivalent is light traveling through media having
different refractive indices. Lots of pretty pictures in introductory
optics texts.

John
 
A

Active8

I read in sci.electronics.design that Active8 <mTHISREMOVEcolasono@earth


No, that a damp sheep - a hydraulic ram, and they are still in use. They
are 'zero-cost energy' devices. (I think that term is necessary, since
'free energy' has come to mean something else.)


Well, I don't think that's the right way, which is to eliminate the
cause, but ....
And how would you do that?
 
A

Active8

I'm looking for more illustrations like this one. How wave is propagated in
wires and open air. How antennas (not closed loops) can emit e-m waves, how
critical length of a wire on PCB board depends on signal rise time. Any
good, comprehensive sources with beatiful illustrations.
The rise time issue is well covered in "High-Speed Digital Design"
by Johnson and Graham.
 
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