How do Philips X-treme power bulbs work?

[JohnR66]

I bought these bulbs to replace the xtra vision bulbs I had in my head lamps
and the difference is noticable.
When my Mom's OEM bulb blew in her Toyota, I installed a new set of low
beams and she said the difference really helped her night driving.

These are clear envelope halogen bulbs. They are quite costly ($50 per set
in the US). I'd guess they are either over driven for more light at reduced
runtime or have an IR coating on the envelope that returns the heat back to
the filament for improved efficiency. I believe the wattage to be the same
as OEM.
John

 

[JB]

I bought these bulbs to replace the xtra vision bulbs I had in my head
lamps and the difference is noticable.
When my Mom's OEM bulb blew in her Toyota, I installed a new set of low
beams and she said the difference really helped her night driving.

These are clear envelope halogen bulbs. They are quite costly ($50 per set
in the US). I'd guess they are either over driven for more light at
reduced runtime or have an IR coating on the envelope that returns the
heat back to the filament for improved efficiency. I believe the wattage
to be the same as OEM.

They aren't HIR (halogen-infrared) types in this case. These and the Osram
Silverstar or Nightbreaker types use a higher pressure gas fill (xenon in
this case) combined with a superb filament design to optimise lumen output.
The filaments operate close to the maximum possible temperature for tungsten
too, which increases efficacy. The downside is marginally reduced service
life.
They are without a doubt the best non-HID auto headlamps available, and
probably the single best improvement you can make to a car, (or in my case
motorcycle) for winter driving.

JB

 

[JohnR66]

They aren't HIR (halogen-infrared) types in this case. These and the Osram
Silverstar or Nightbreaker types use a higher pressure gas fill (xenon in
this case) combined with a superb filament design to optimise lumen
output. The filaments operate close to the maximum possible temperature
for tungsten too, which increases efficacy. The downside is marginally
reduced service life.
They are without a doubt the best non-HID auto headlamps available, and
probably the single best improvement you can make to a car, (or in my
case motorcycle) for winter driving.

JB

I would think operating the filament so hot would make it prone to failure
do to vibrations.
For the cost of them, I would have liked to see the IR reflector technology
in use for possibly even more light.
Anyone have the lumen and life data on these?

Anyhow, for anyone with any doubts, it is finally a product that lives up to
its claims.
John

 

[JB]

I would think operating the filament so hot would make it prone to failure
do to vibrations.

The metallurgy of these filaments is rather special as you would expect.
Actually though, tungsten filaments are more fragile when cold.

For the cost of them, I would have liked to see the IR reflector
technology in use for possibly even more light.

HIR coatings are very expensive to implement versus the extra efficacy
gained, and most importantly only really suited for double ended lamp
designs or special single axial filament designs.

Anyone have the lumen and life data on these?

I'd check with Philips for the correct info on the Extremes but for others
see here:
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/bulbs/bulb_types/bulb_types.html

Anyhow, for anyone with any doubts, it is finally a product that lives up
to its claims.

Indeed.

JB

 

[[email protected]]

| |>I bought these bulbs to replace the xtra vision bulbs I had in my head
|>lamps and the difference is noticable.
|> When my Mom's OEM bulb blew in her Toyota, I installed a new set of low
|> beams and she said the difference really helped her night driving.
|>
|> These are clear envelope halogen bulbs. They are quite costly ($50 per set
|> in the US). I'd guess they are either over driven for more light at
|> reduced runtime or have an IR coating on the envelope that returns the
|> heat back to the filament for improved efficiency. I believe the wattage
|> to be the same as OEM.
|
| They aren't HIR (halogen-infrared) types in this case. These and the Osram
| Silverstar or Nightbreaker types use a higher pressure gas fill (xenon in
| this case) combined with a superb filament design to optimise lumen output.
| The filaments operate close to the maximum possible temperature for tungsten
| too, which increases efficacy. The downside is marginally reduced service
| life.
| They are without a doubt the best non-HID auto headlamps available, and
| probably the single best improvement you can make to a car, (or in my case
| motorcycle) for winter driving.

Are these the bulbs with the bluish tint, or are the bluish ones the HID?

I do notice some cars with a slight bluish tint in the headlights. SOME of
them are brighter than normal. My father claims ALL the bluish ones are WAY
brighter than normal. He seems to have extra sensitivity to blue, or else
I have less (but my night vision is much better than his, so this does not
work out consistent the way I understand it should).

 

[JohnR66]

| |>I bought these bulbs to replace the xtra vision bulbs I had in my head
|>lamps and the difference is noticable.
|> When my Mom's OEM bulb blew in her Toyota, I installed a new set of low
|> beams and she said the difference really helped her night driving.
|>
|> These are clear envelope halogen bulbs. They are quite costly ($50 per
set
|> in the US). I'd guess they are either over driven for more light at
|> reduced runtime or have an IR coating on the envelope that returns the
|> heat back to the filament for improved efficiency. I believe the
wattage
|> to be the same as OEM.
|
| They aren't HIR (halogen-infrared) types in this case. These and the
Osram
| Silverstar or Nightbreaker types use a higher pressure gas fill (xenon
in
| this case) combined with a superb filament design to optimise lumen
output.
| The filaments operate close to the maximum possible temperature for
tungsten
| too, which increases efficacy. The downside is marginally reduced
service
| life.
| They are without a doubt the best non-HID auto headlamps available, and
| probably the single best improvement you can make to a car, (or in my
case
| motorcycle) for winter driving.

Are these the bulbs with the bluish tint, or are the bluish ones the HID?

I do notice some cars with a slight bluish tint in the headlights. SOME
of
them are brighter than normal. My father claims ALL the bluish ones are
WAY
brighter than normal. He seems to have extra sensitivity to blue, or else
I have less (but my night vision is much better than his, so this does not
work out consistent the way I understand it should).

--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to
ignorance |
| by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post
to |
| Usenet from these places, find another Usenet provider ASAP.
|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at
ipal.net) |

No, The Philips X-treme Power bulbs are clear. I would never use the blue
tinted junk. That is for looks only. I need the real deal because my night
vision is a bit below par.
Perhaps your dad saw HID or some high wattage tinted ones that a not legal.
John

 

[Don Klipstein]

The metallurgy of these filaments is rather special as you would expect.
Actually though, tungsten filaments are more fragile when cold.

My experience tells me otherwise.

If I drop or bang an incandescent lamp that has long wires leading
to the filament, and do so while the filament is cold, I find it hard (but
not impossible) to break or stretch the filament without also bending the
wires leading to the filament.

When the filament is hot, I find it easy to stretch the filament out of
shape by so much as rough tapping of the lamp. Sometimes, worse still, I
end up stretching only part of the filament - and that can make the
unstretched portion hotter than before. (The stretched portion is cooler,
has less resistance, and more current flows through the entire filament.)
Also, uneven filament temperature leads to uneven evaporation, and the
hotter parts of the filament become acceleratingly severe hot spots once
significant evaporation has occurred.

And if there is a lot of vibration just short of stretching the
filament, that will cause significant metal fatigue. I think that is more
of a problem with a hot filament than with a cold one.

Incandescent trouble lights seem to me to easily have their filaments
stretched out of shape or outright broken from impacts while they are on
and not while they are off.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])

 

[TKM]

My experience tells me otherwise.

If I drop or bang an incandescent lamp that has long wires leading
to the filament, and do so while the filament is cold, I find it hard (but
not impossible) to break or stretch the filament without also bending the
wires leading to the filament.

When the filament is hot, I find it easy to stretch the filament out of
shape by so much as rough tapping of the lamp. Sometimes, worse still, I
end up stretching only part of the filament - and that can make the
unstretched portion hotter than before. (The stretched portion is cooler,
has less resistance, and more current flows through the entire filament.)
Also, uneven filament temperature leads to uneven evaporation, and the
hotter parts of the filament become acceleratingly severe hot spots once
significant evaporation has occurred.

And if there is a lot of vibration just short of stretching the
filament, that will cause significant metal fatigue. I think that is more
of a problem with a hot filament than with a cold one.

Incandescent trouble lights seem to me to easily have their filaments
stretched out of shape or outright broken from impacts while they are on
and not while they are off.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])

I don't think its so much the stretching of the filament as it is the
shorting of the coils in the coiled-coil filament. When line voltage lamps,
particularly halogen, are moved or subjected to vibration, the coils bang
together and short circuit. That makes the voltage goes up on the remaining
length of filament which then fails or burns hotter shortening life. The
50PAR20 is particularly sensitive and requires very gentle handling when
aiming the fixture.

Terry McGowan

 

[JB]

I don't think its so much the stretching of the filament as it is the
shorting of the coils in the coiled-coil filament. When line voltage
lamps, particularly halogen, are moved or subjected to vibration, the
coils bang together and short circuit. That makes the voltage goes up on
the remaining length of filament which then fails or burns hotter
shortening life. The 50PAR20 is particularly sensitive and requires very
gentle handling when aiming the fixture.

I really should have qualified my statement. I was referring LV halogen
filaments (<30V). These are very much more rigid then line voltage types and
rarely suffer coil to coil shorts in the way that the thinner, high voltage
types do.

JB

 

[Don Klipstein]

I don't think its so much the stretching of the filament as it is the
shorting of the coils in the coiled-coil filament. When line voltage lamps,
particularly halogen, are moved or subjected to vibration, the coils bang
together and short circuit. That makes the voltage goes up on the remaining
length of filament which then fails or burns hotter shortening life. The
50PAR20 is particularly sensitive and requires very gentle handling when
aiming the fixture.

Oh you remind me! I have a bit of experience with filaments partially
short in 120V lamps from shock/vibration!

I have seen that happen with filaments of C-7A and CC-2V style.

In the case of C-7A: Nightlight lamps and similar 120V holiday lamps,
when tapped in rough manner by a finger (plucked), especialy if
impacted such several times, can have a small region of filament get
tangled with a small region of a nearby portion of filament.
This appears to me to occur more easily if impacts (with the filament
hot) stretch the filament so that the filament has slack and sections of
it easily flopping around.
I used to do that a bit as a "party trick" - to make such lamps glow
brighter and whiter. That was maybe 30 years ago, and back then I was not
thinking that much that I reduced the lamp's life expectancy to maybe a
few days.
On a bit of a sidetrack, those lamps had bulb shape/size designation of
C7 and a common nominal wattage for those was 7 watts. Since then there
have been 4 and nowadays some 5 watt ones with C7 bulb and C-7A filament.
There is a larger usually-colored "older type holiday lamp" with bulb
shape/size designation of C9. Its wattage is typically 7 or 10 watts and
the filament is usually C-7A. The base of that one is often "intermediate
screw", which often makes the part number get an "N" towards the end.

In the case of CC-2V: I forget whether that was "normal CC-2V"
(pointing away from base) or inverted (and I wonder what the designation
for that is anyway). However, those were V-shaped coiled-coil filaments
with one support at the "corner" between the ends.
The lamp was a chandalier style one, of wattage probably 40 or 60 watts
but I can't rule out 25, and the bulb was of one of those F or similar
flame shapes.
Where I saw such lamps having filaments partially shorting, the
filaments had a short somewhat close to "the vertex of the V", apparently
due to vibration/shock jostling the filaments and possibly stretching the
filaments also to make the filaments entangle into such "partial shorts"
more easily.
Where I saw such CC-2V filaments shorting was in a fraternity house at
the University of Pennsylvania (when I was making a delivery to that
house), back in a day when fraternities at U-of-P had an easier time
having parties with beer kegs in their houses. The affected/afflected
filaments appeared to me especially "stretched/floppy", except the ones
that partially shorted but had yet to fail appeared to me "not-too-floppy"
(and also appeared to me having fair to poor chance of surviving into the
next party).
I did appear to me that the filaments were stretched into a "floppier
state" and I happen to think that the filaments were stretched into an
"easier-to-partially-short state" while the filaments were hot, as in
"in-use to produce light".

As for shorting effects specific to coiled-coil where "greater turns"
short to adjacent ones - that one I have yet to see, but I don't yet have
doubt that this one can occur if the "greater turns" are wider and/or
the "compacted overall length" is shorter than usually used in coiled-coil
C-6/C-8 filaments in 120V A19 lamps.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])

 

[Travis Evans]

Oh you remind me! I have a bit of experience with filaments partially
short in 120V lamps from shock/vibration!

I have seen that happen with filaments of C-7A and CC-2V style.

In the case of C-7A: Nightlight lamps and similar 120V holiday lamps,
when tapped in rough manner by a finger (plucked), especialy if
impacted such several times, can have a small region of filament get
tangled with a small region of a nearby portion of filament.

Maybe I've seen that effect before. I remember several years ago when
my stepbrothers were playing with a burned-out nightlight. When shaken
a certain way (presumably in a manner that made the broken ends of the
filament rest against each other) it would still light up and seemed
somewhat brighter than it normally would be. At the time I didn't feel
comfortable with them playing with the lamp in this way since I wasn't
sure whether there was any danger in it.

It seems that I have seen a similar thing happen with burned-out
nightlights on a couple of other occassions, but can't remember for
sure.

 

[TKM]

Oh you remind me! I have a bit of experience with filaments partially
short in 120V lamps from shock/vibration!

I have seen that happen with filaments of C-7A and CC-2V style.

In the case of C-7A: Nightlight lamps and similar 120V holiday lamps,
when tapped in rough manner by a finger (plucked), especialy if
impacted such several times, can have a small region of filament get
tangled with a small region of a nearby portion of filament.
This appears to me to occur more easily if impacts (with the filament
hot) stretch the filament so that the filament has slack and sections of
it easily flopping around.
I used to do that a bit as a "party trick" - to make such lamps glow
brighter and whiter. That was maybe 30 years ago, and back then I was not
thinking that much that I reduced the lamp's life expectancy to maybe a
few days.
On a bit of a sidetrack, those lamps had bulb shape/size designation of
C7 and a common nominal wattage for those was 7 watts. Since then there
have been 4 and nowadays some 5 watt ones with C7 bulb and C-7A filament.
There is a larger usually-colored "older type holiday lamp" with bulb
shape/size designation of C9. Its wattage is typically 7 or 10 watts and
the filament is usually C-7A. The base of that one is often "intermediate
screw", which often makes the part number get an "N" towards the end.

In the case of CC-2V: I forget whether that was "normal CC-2V"
(pointing away from base) or inverted (and I wonder what the designation
for that is anyway). However, those were V-shaped coiled-coil filaments
with one support at the "corner" between the ends.
The lamp was a chandalier style one, of wattage probably 40 or 60 watts
but I can't rule out 25, and the bulb was of one of those F or similar
flame shapes.
Where I saw such lamps having filaments partially shorting, the
filaments had a short somewhat close to "the vertex of the V", apparently
due to vibration/shock jostling the filaments and possibly stretching the
filaments also to make the filaments entangle into such "partial shorts"
more easily.
Where I saw such CC-2V filaments shorting was in a fraternity house at
the University of Pennsylvania (when I was making a delivery to that
house), back in a day when fraternities at U-of-P had an easier time
having parties with beer kegs in their houses. The affected/afflected
filaments appeared to me especially "stretched/floppy", except the ones
that partially shorted but had yet to fail appeared to me "not-too-floppy"
(and also appeared to me having fair to poor chance of surviving into the
next party).
I did appear to me that the filaments were stretched into a "floppier
state" and I happen to think that the filaments were stretched into an
"easier-to-partially-short state" while the filaments were hot, as in
"in-use to produce light".

As for shorting effects specific to coiled-coil where "greater turns"
short to adjacent ones - that one I have yet to see, but I don't yet have
doubt that this one can occur if the "greater turns" are wider and/or
the "compacted overall length" is shorter than usually used in coiled-coil
C-6/C-8 filaments in 120V A19 lamps.

- Don Klipstein ([email protected])

Tungsten filaments, when new, are relatively stiff and I'm not convinced
that they stretch although they certainly flop around and they do move
inside the filament support loops . Try this (it requires sacrificing a new
lamp, however): Take a candelabra-based lamp apart. They typically have,
as you say, CC-2V filaments although some have C-7A designs (more filament
supports). Remove the filament and pull on the ends. It takes quite a bit
of force to stretch that filament, so even after some burning hours as the
filament becomes brittle, it doesn't seem likely that it stretches. But, if
so, the "CC" filament would stretch more than the "C" types.

A story was told to me some years ago by the product service people of a
large lamp manufacturer. It seems that they had received a complaint about
short lamp life of candelabra-based lamps in a dining room chandelier. The
complaint was puzzling since dozens of lamps had failed over a few weeks
time and there were no other complaints pending for that particular lamp
type. The person complaining happened to be fairly close to the offices of
the company so a local lamp engineer was dispatched to see what the problem
might be. An evening visit was arranged and the engineer confirmed that
lamps were indeed failing, but that the lamps were current production and
the voltage at the lamp sockets was below the lamp rating. There was no
dimmer on the circuit. Puzzled, the lamp engineer left a voltage recording
device on the circuit and arranged another visit for a week later.

That visit turned up more failed lamps, a record of less-then-rated voltage
on the lines and an increasingly-grumpy customer. As the frustrated
engineer was about to leave, however, there was a loud thump from upstairs
that shook the whole room including the chandelier which actually moved
several inches. Problem solved. The noise was due to the teenage son
jumping from the top level of a bunk bed onto the bedroom floor which he
did, with some pleasure, several times a day. A gym pad on the bedroom
floor damped the worst of the vibrations and reduced lamp failures; but the
problem wasn't solved until the bunk bed was moved to another bedroom.

The episode generated research on filament failures and a technical paper
written a few years later concluded that vibration and shock failures in
small decorative lamps accounted for a fair percentage (30-50%, as I recall)
of failures before rated life.

Terry McGowan

 

[TKM]

Maybe I've seen that effect before. I remember several years ago when
my stepbrothers were playing with a burned-out nightlight. When shaken
a certain way (presumably in a manner that made the broken ends of the
filament rest against each other) it would still light up and seemed
somewhat brighter than it normally would be. At the time I didn't feel
comfortable with them playing with the lamp in this way since I wasn't
sure whether there was any danger in it.

It seems that I have seen a similar thing happen with burned-out
nightlights on a couple of other occassions, but can't remember for
sure.

Shaking and/or sharply tapping a small C7 or C9 line-voltage lamp does
sometimes "repair" it. What happens is the broken ends of the filament
swing around and if they happen to touch, the arc which is generated welds
the filament pieces together. The weld is weak and it's likely that the
filament is now shorter than before, so the lamp burns brighter before it
fails agan. But, it can burn for many hours. I've done such a repair on
holiday lamps many times with no nasty results; but, of course, the lamp can
break if hit too hard and there's a small chance of the filament arcing into
the lamp base through the filament support wires.

Terry McGowan

 

[Travis Evans]

Shaking and/or sharply tapping a small C7 or C9 line-voltage lamp does
sometimes "repair" it. What happens is the broken ends of the filament
swing around and if they happen to touch, the arc which is generated welds
the filament pieces together. The weld is weak and it's likely that the
filament is now shorter than before, so the lamp burns brighter before it
fails agan. But, it can burn for many hours. I've done such a repair on
holiday lamps many times with no nasty results; but, of course, the lamp can
break if hit too hard and there's a small chance of the filament arcing into
the lamp base through the filament support wires.

This reminds me of a history article on a streetlamp collector's website
about incandescent streetlights in the early days. Many of these at
the time were in series circuits where the voltage of a circuit with
many lamps could easily be in the hundreds or even thousands of volts.
It mentioned that often a series lamp with a breaking filament would
be welded back together by the high-voltage arc and that this would
often happen to the same lamp repeatedly over time. The article said
that the effective filament length would become shorter and that these
lamps would become dimmer and redder instead of failing to light
altogether.

 

[TKM]

This reminds me of a history article on a streetlamp collector's website
about incandescent streetlights in the early days. Many of these at
the time were in series circuits where the voltage of a circuit with
many lamps could easily be in the hundreds or even thousands of volts.
It mentioned that often a series lamp with a breaking filament would
be welded back together by the high-voltage arc and that this would
often happen to the same lamp repeatedly over time. The article said
that the effective filament length would become shorter and that these
lamps would become dimmer and redder instead of failing to light
altogether.

That's a great example since no matter how short the filament, the same
current would go through it and the lumen output of the lamp would be a
function of the length of filament remaining. The redder output results
from the reduced lamp wattage and lower filament temperature.

Terry McGowan

 

[Andrew Gabriel]

That's a great example since no matter how short the filament, the same
current would go through it and the lumen output of the lamp would be a
function of the length of filament remaining. The redder output results
from the reduced lamp wattage and lower filament temperature.

A council lighting engineer gave me a dead one of these lamps.
It was rated 300W 5.5A IIRC, but no voltage specification, being
designed for series operation. I was told it has something in the
lamp base which shorts out when the filament breaks and a few
thousand volts appear across it, so the others stay on (a bit like
fairy lights). They stopped being able to obtain the series filament
lamps sometime before 1970 and had to swap them out for mercury
vapour lamps whose control gear was designed to run on a series
circuit. (In the mid-late 1970's, those were all changed to LPS
lamps, but I think the series wiring was abandoned at that point.)
Some years later, I saw the series loop power supplies in the
basement of the town hall, although it was no longer used at that
point. Quite fancy constant current transformers which had a core
which moved depending how many lamps were shorted (someone had
marked the core positions for various numbers of dead lamps).

 

[Travis Evans]

That's a great example since no matter how short the filament, the same
current would go through it and the lumen output of the lamp would be a
function of the length of filament remaining. The redder output results
from the reduced lamp wattage and lower filament temperature.

A council lighting engineer gave me a dead one of these lamps.
It was rated 300W 5.5A IIRC, but no voltage specification, being
designed for series operation. I was told it has something in the
lamp base which shorts out when the filament breaks and a few
thousand volts appear across it, so the others stay on (a bit like
fairy lights).
[...]

The article I read said that they used a piece of mica or other
material placed in the socket below the lamp that would short, and some
of these lamps also had the lead-in wires designed so that they would
short together on failure to prevent the arc from making its way into
the socket and destroying it.

 

[JohnR66]

Tungsten filaments, when new, are relatively stiff and I'm not convinced
that they stretch although they certainly flop around and they do move
inside the filament support loops . Try this (it requires sacrificing a
new lamp, however): Take a candelabra-based lamp apart. They typically
have, as you say, CC-2V filaments although some have C-7A designs (more
filament supports). Remove the filament and pull on the ends. It takes
quite a bit of force to stretch that filament, so even after some burning
hours as the filament becomes brittle, it doesn't seem likely that it
stretches. But, if so, the "CC" filament would stretch more than the "C"
types.

A story was told to me some years ago by the product service people of a
large lamp manufacturer. It seems that they had received a complaint
about short lamp life of candelabra-based lamps in a dining room
chandelier. The complaint was puzzling since dozens of lamps had failed
over a few weeks time and there were no other complaints pending for that
particular lamp type. The person complaining happened to be fairly close
to the offices of the company so a local lamp engineer was dispatched to
see what the problem might be. An evening visit was arranged and the
engineer confirmed that lamps were indeed failing, but that the lamps were
current production and the voltage at the lamp sockets was below the lamp
rating. There was no dimmer on the circuit. Puzzled, the lamp engineer
left a voltage recording device on the circuit and arranged another visit
for a week later.

That visit turned up more failed lamps, a record of less-then-rated
voltage on the lines and an increasingly-grumpy customer. As the
frustrated engineer was about to leave, however, there was a loud thump
from upstairs that shook the whole room including the chandelier which
actually moved several inches. Problem solved. The noise was due to the
teenage son jumping from the top level of a bunk bed onto the bedroom
floor which he did, with some pleasure, several times a day. A gym pad
on the bedroom floor damped the worst of the vibrations and reduced lamp
failures; but the problem wasn't solved until the bunk bed was moved to
another bedroom.

The episode generated research on filament failures and a technical paper
written a few years later concluded that vibration and shock failures in
small decorative lamps accounted for a fair percentage (30-50%, as I
recall) of failures before rated life.

Terry McGowan

One way to see the filimament move is to place a magnet near the lamp when
on (operating on AC). I did that with with a C7 nightlight bulb and and it
vibrated itself into a shorted section. I unplugged it and tapped it back
loose.

When I lived in an appartment, The upstairs tennant must have jumped hard or
dropped something so heavy a U tube CFL in my ceiling fixture hit against
the glass cover and broke. I'm glad to be out of appartments. There's
allways those neighbors. Especially ones with the music.