Homeplug HL106, how well do they work?

[Joerg]

Hi Guys,

Does anyone have experience with the Homeplug powerline modules? This kind:

http://www.aztech.com/prod_homeplug_hl106e.html

How well do they work? I mean range-wise, across the two phases, through
GFI protected circuits, when a vacuum is running, and so on.

Dish Network states in some documents that they won't work behind a GFI
outlet. I guess that is because of the magnetics in there but this would
be a show stopper in the planned case, since part of the gear is going
to be outdoors. Code requires GFI there in many places.

 

[Joerg]

Hi Guys,

Does anyone have experience with the Homeplug powerline modules? This kind:

http://www.aztech.com/prod_homeplug_hl106e.html

How well do they work? I mean range-wise, across the two phases, through
GFI protected circuits, when a vacuum is running, and so on.

Dish Network states in some documents that they won't work behind a GFI
outlet. I guess that is because of the magnetics in there but this would
be a show stopper in the planned case, since part of the gear is going
to be outdoors. Code requires GFI there in many places.

P.S.: Our required data rates will be _very_ slow, under 100bps like in
the old telex machine days. And only occasional bursts once in a blue
moon. So this would be like sending morse code via a HDTV channel.

 

[Artemus]

P.S.: Our required data rates will be _very_ slow, under 100bps like in
the old telex machine days. And only occasional bursts once in a blue
moon. So this would be like sending morse code via a HDTV channel.

The datarate is moot. With GFI's it's the carrier (4-20MHz) that counts.
I have found that even X-10's 120KHz carrier gets blocked by my GFI's.
Surge protected power strips will also block the signal.
As for talking across the 2 phases a repeater works well but I didn't see
one on their website. Passive coupling helps.
Any capacitive loads, like switching supplies, on the power line tend to
sink the signal.
Art

 

[Joerg]

You have, I assume, a good reason to not use wireless?

Yup: $$$$$ :-(

For some reason anything becomes super-expensive the millisecond you
want data to be piped into a LAN and from there onto the web. The only
option is to roll your own which is cost prohibitive when the quantities
are too low. Intentional radiator cert and all that fun stuff. Then
there's all those international regs to deal with. For example, we need
a sustained 1000ft indoor to outdoor range regardless of building
materials. Pricey 900MHz systems can do that in the US but not
internationally.

 

[Joerg]

Hi Guys,

Does anyone have experience with the Homeplug powerline modules? This kind:

http://www.aztech.com/prod_homeplug_hl106e.html

How well do they work? I mean range-wise, across the two phases, through
GFI protected circuits, when a vacuum is running, and so on.

Dish Network states in some documents that they won't work behind a GFI
outlet. I guess that is because of the magnetics in there but this would
be a show stopper in the planned case, since part of the gear is going
to be outdoors. Code requires GFI there in many places.

So, yesterday I tested a pair. The results were not too encouraging:
Obviously they do not like surge protectors. Which are installed in many
places here. Through one the connection worked, sort of, on and off.
Through two of them (one at each location) there was no reliable
connection possible.

Anyone know of lower bandwidth devices that can work with much smaller
signal levels? All we need is 100bps (yes, as in bits per second), not
Internet speeds. But it has to be reliable.

 

[Artemus]

So, yesterday I tested a pair. The results were not too encouraging:
Obviously they do not like surge protectors. Which are installed in many
places here. Through one the connection worked, sort of, on and off.
Through two of them (one at each location) there was no reliable
connection possible.

Anyone know of lower bandwidth devices that can work with much smaller
signal levels? All we need is 100bps (yes, as in bits per second), not
Internet speeds. But it has to be reliable.

Some related info that may help.
Many moons ago I had similar problems with my X10 stuff which uses 120KHz
for the carrier freq. El cheapo surge protectors which used a triad of capacitors
effectively shorted the carrier out but the ones which used transorbs worked
much better. GFI's blocked the carrier due to the coils in series with each wire.
Bypassing the coils with a small cap fixed that but of course wasn't to code and
blah, blah, blah. I forget the value of the caps but I added them externally -
black line to black load & white line to white load.
HTH.
Art

 

[[email protected]]

Yup: $$$$$ :-(

For some reason anything becomes super-expensive the millisecond you
want data to be piped into a LAN and from there onto the web. The only
option is to roll your own which is cost prohibitive when the quantities
are too low. Intentional radiator cert and all that fun stuff. Then
there's all those international regs to deal with. For example, we need
a sustained 1000ft indoor to outdoor range regardless of building
materials. Pricey 900MHz systems can do that in the US but not
internationally.

I wonder how on earth you are going to communicate 1000 ft over a
power line communication system, especially in the USA ?

In Europe in which a single low voltage (230 V) distribution
transformer could serve customers in an area of at least 1 km², Some
ISPs especially in Germany used Mainnet and similar systems to connect
to the customers with some success (a few mbit/s total capacity).

In the US, with low voltage (110 V) distribution transformers ("pigs")
in nearly every other pole, the powerline communication area is going
to be very short. This effectively killed the ISP power line attempts
in the US, since the signal would have to ve fed into the medium
voltage line, then couplers across every MV/LV transformers would be
needed, in order to reach the customers on the low voltage side. Such
devices are expensive (high isolation voltages needed) and of course
needed to be installed by the power company.

Thus, in order to communicate from one LV network to a device on a
different LV network serviced by a different distribution transformer,
would require bridging the two transformers with suitable couplers, in
order to use the MV line for intertransformer communication.

Of course, these couplers would need to be installed by the power
company.

Thus, in practice, how would you be able to communicate for up to 300
m in the US using power line technology ?

 

[Joerg]

I wonder how on earth you are going to communicate 1000 ft over a
power line communication system, especially in the USA ?

In Europe in which a single low voltage (230 V) distribution
transformer could serve customers in an area of at least 1 km², Some
ISPs especially in Germany used Mainnet and similar systems to connect
to the customers with some success (a few mbit/s total capacity).

In the US, with low voltage (110 V) distribution transformers ("pigs")
in nearly every other pole, the powerline communication area is going
to be very short. This effectively killed the ISP power line attempts
in the US, since the signal would have to ve fed into the medium
voltage line, then couplers across every MV/LV transformers would be
needed, in order to reach the customers on the low voltage side. Such
devices are expensive (high isolation voltages needed) and of course
needed to be installed by the power company.

Thus, in order to communicate from one LV network to a device on a
different LV network serviced by a different distribution transformer,
would require bridging the two transformers with suitable couplers, in
order to use the MV line for intertransformer communication.

Of course, these couplers would need to be installed by the power
company.

Thus, in practice, how would you be able to communicate for up to 300
m in the US using power line technology ?

We don't need to hop any transformers because it will always be on the
same premises. Properties in the US, even residential ones, can be huge.
There are many homes that sit on 5-acre or 10-acre lots. Wealthy people
have much of that fully landscaped. There are granny flats, guest
houses, pool houses and so on. All on the same power transformer.

 

[Joerg]

Some related info that may help.
Many moons ago I had similar problems with my X10 stuff which uses 120KHz
for the carrier freq. El cheapo surge protectors which used a triad of capacitors
effectively shorted the carrier out but the ones which used transorbs worked
much better. ...

You rarely find transzorbs, mostly MOVs. But either way is a problem
because both have a tremendous capacitance. My surge protectors are a
bit on the extreme, each has a whole fistful of MOVs in there. A dozen
or so each.

... GFI's blocked the carrier due to the coils in series with each wire.
Bypassing the coils with a small cap fixed that but of course wasn't to code and
blah, blah, blah. I forget the value of the caps but I added them externally -
black line to black load & white line to white load.

Sure, I'd know how to fix it. Little inductors would do the trick, for
example. But this has to be a plug-and-play product. We don't want to
hunt down and exchange all possible interfering devices at each customer.

Looks like RF then. <sigh>

 

[ehsjr]

You rarely find transzorbs, mostly MOVs. But either way is a problem
because both have a tremendous capacitance. My surge protectors are a
bit on the extreme, each has a whole fistful of MOVs in there. A dozen
or so each.






Sure, I'd know how to fix it. Little inductors would do the trick, for
example. But this has to be a plug-and-play product. We don't want to
hunt down and exchange all possible interfering devices at each customer.

Right. I've gotten my X-10 system to work. Several times. :-(
Over the years, you add or replace some device or other, and then
the system goes blooey. You track it down, add an L or C or 2,
and everything works perfectly, again. The last time it was a
replacement of an electric toothbrush that screwed up the
system. Grumble.

Ed