Help with winding a toroid pulse transformer to drive back-to-back SCRs

[MR COFFEE]

Hi folks.
I am trying to put together Bill Bowden's thermostat circuit to
trigger back-to-back SCRs to turn on a water heater element run on
120v (to make a 500 watt heater).

I don't have a 3 winding trigger transformer laying around, but I do
have a nice toroid core I picked up surplus that is supposedly for
pulse transformer use. Can I just wind a trifilar winding around it
with some 28AWG magnet wire and have half a chance it will work? The
core measures about 2 uh with 8 turns on it, so I figure it is a
pretty low mu ferrite core.

TIA.

mr coffee

 

[John Popelish]

Hi folks.
I am trying to put together Bill Bowden's thermostat circuit to
trigger back-to-back SCRs to turn on a water heater element run on
120v (to make a 500 watt heater).

I don't have a 3 winding trigger transformer laying around, but I do
have a nice toroid core I picked up surplus that is supposedly for
pulse transformer use. Can I just wind a trifilar winding around it
with some 28AWG magnet wire and have half a chance it will work? The
core measures about 2 uh with 8 turns on it, so I figure it is a
pretty low mu ferrite core.

My biggest worry would be the breakdown voltage of the
magnet wire, especially after it has been dragged through
the hole in the toroid many times. What is the peak voltage
that will appear between any pair of the three wires? You
may need better insulated wire, or an insulated core and
three separated windings to achieve reliable resistance to
breakdown.

What inductance do you need?

Is the core black ceramic or painted? It might be a
powdered iron core, that includes distributed gaps, that
make it useful for designs that include DC in the windings
or emphasize energy storage in the inductor, rather than
simple transformer action of pure AC.

 

[MR COFFEE]

My biggest worry would be the breakdown voltage of the
magnet wire, especially after it has been dragged through
the hole in the toroid many times. What is the peak voltage
that will appear between any pair of the three wires?

about 170 volts

You may need better insulated wire, or an insulated core and
three separated windings to achieve reliable resistance to
breakdown.

I guess I assumed pulse transformers needed to be wound that way
(trifilar).
Separate windings are actually easier to wind from my experience.

What inductance do you need?

Actually, I haven't got a clue. I hoped someone more familiar with
triggering
SCRs would fill me in on that. I've done searches but all I've found
is on
commercial sites that want to sell pulse transformers.

Is the core black ceramic or painted?

Actually it is painted blue on one side and the other side and
circumference is
painted very light green. The core is from a Pulse Engineering
transformer but
I couldn't find any information on it anywhere on the web.

It might be a
powdered iron core, that includes distributed gaps, that
make it useful for designs that include DC in the windings
or emphasize energy storage in the inductor, rather than
simple transformer action of pure AC.

I'm guessing it is ferrite from what I assume was it's intended use. I
have two
cores so I can bust one open if that would give helpful information. I
would
think the low inductance I measured would mean it is a low mu core
intended
for high frequency use, but I stand to be corrected and educated on
that
assumption.

Thanks for reply.

 

[DaveM]

about 170 volts


I guess I assumed pulse transformers needed to be wound that way
(trifilar).
Separate windings are actually easier to wind from my experience.


Actually, I haven't got a clue. I hoped someone more familiar with
triggering
SCRs would fill me in on that. I've done searches but all I've found
is on
commercial sites that want to sell pulse transformers.


Actually it is painted blue on one side and the other side and
circumference is
painted very light green. The core is from a Pulse Engineering
transformer but
I couldn't find any information on it anywhere on the web.


I'm guessing it is ferrite from what I assume was it's intended use. I
have two
cores so I can bust one open if that would give helpful information. I
would
think the low inductance I measured would mean it is a low mu core
intended
for high frequency use, but I stand to be corrected and educated on
that
assumption.

Thanks for reply.

These transformers are usually called "Trigger Transformers". Mouser sells the
Vishay-Dale line, but looking at their stock, they only have one that looks like
it would meet your needs
(http://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=PT020BJ106virtualkey61300000virtualkey70-PT20-106).
Newark looks the same, and Digikey doesn't stock any. Pitiful.

--
Dave M
MasonDG44 at comcast dot net (Just substitute the appropriate characters in the
address)

"In theory, there isn't any difference between theory and practice. In
practice, there is." - Yogi Berra

 

[ehsjr]

Hi folks.
I am trying to put together Bill Bowden's thermostat circuit to
trigger back-to-back SCRs to turn on a water heater element run on
120v (to make a 500 watt heater).

I don't have a 3 winding trigger transformer laying around, but I do
have a nice toroid core I picked up surplus that is supposedly for
pulse transformer use. Can I just wind a trifilar winding around it
with some 28AWG magnet wire and have half a chance it will work? The
core measures about 2 uh with 8 turns on it, so I figure it is a
pretty low mu ferrite core.

TIA.

mr coffee

Yes, with a mod to the circuit. The transformer is driven by
6 volts, and just needs to turn the SCRs on. As drawn, with a
home wound unknown transformer, you risk burning out the PNP's,
so put a 100 ohm resistor in series with the winding that is
connected to the PNP collectors. If you use sensitive gate SCR's,
you can do that (turn them on) with very little current. Build
the circuit, and try it out with a 6 volt supply to a 6V load
on the SCR's rather than the heater, just to make sure it turns
the SCR's on when it should.

Once you're satisfied with the circuit, you can connect it to
the heater.

Ed

 

[Spurious Response]

Hi folks.
I am trying to put together Bill Bowden's thermostat circuit to
trigger back-to-back SCRs to turn on a water heater element run on
120v (to make a 500 watt heater).

I don't have a 3 winding trigger transformer laying around, but I do
have a nice toroid core I picked up surplus that is supposedly for
pulse transformer use. Can I just wind a trifilar winding around it
with some 28AWG magnet wire and have half a chance it will work? The
core measures about 2 uh with 8 turns on it, so I figure it is a
pretty low mu ferrite core.

TIA.

mr coffee

A much simpler solution, and likely cheaper, more robust, and higher
longevity would be to use solid state relays to energize the AC fed
heater elements, and use a simple Low Voltage DC circuit to perform the
sensing, and relay activation signal.

Probably more efficient as well, as the DC sense/control circuit could
be built to us very little energy.

http://us.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Cat=1048664;keywords=solid state relay;FV=

http://www.mouser.com/search/Refine...e relay&N=1323038 254134&Ntk=Mouser_Wildcards

 

[Terry Given]

about 170 volts




I guess I assumed pulse transformers needed to be wound that way
(trifilar).
Separate windings are actually easier to wind from my experience.




Actually, I haven't got a clue. I hoped someone more familiar with
triggering
SCRs would fill me in on that. I've done searches but all I've found
is on
commercial sites that want to sell pulse transformers.




Actually it is painted blue on one side and the other side and
circumference is
painted very light green. The core is from a Pulse Engineering
transformer but
I couldn't find any information on it anywhere on the web.

ITS PROBABLY -52 MATERIAL IRON-POWDER FROM MICROMETALS.

oops, sorry about shouting.

I'm guessing it is ferrite from what I assume was it's intended use. I
have two
cores so I can bust one open if that would give helpful information. I
would
think the low inductance I measured would mean it is a low mu core
intended
for high frequency use, but I stand to be corrected and educated on
that
assumption.

Thanks for reply.

what you need to do is a "splat test"

charge up a known, large cap to some voltage V, then "splat" it across
onw winding (other open-cct) and measure current (eg 0.1R resistor off
to scope). you will the current slope (dI/dt) gives you V/L, and if the
cap is large (c.f. energy in choke) then V is pretty much constant so
you can work out L. you can also see the core saturate (slopes upward, L
decreases), which will tell you how many Volt-Seconds the core can
handle (with that many turns), which then tells you what pulse width it
can cope with - you know the volts the driver cct will apply.

trifilar wound produces lowest leakeage, so best pulse shapes. if
leakage is too high, primary saturates before 2ndary goes very far.

Cheers
Terry

 

[John Popelish]

about 170 volts

I wouldn't trust ordinary single layer varnish to stand
that. I would probably use kynar wire wrap wire or Teflon
insulated wire if I was going to do a trifilar.

I guess I assumed pulse transformers needed to be wound that way
(trifilar).

It improves the energy transfer at the edges to do trifilar,
but the compromise with separate windings may be acceptable.

Separate windings are actually easier to wind from my experience.


Actually, I haven't got a clue. I hoped someone more familiar with
triggering
SCRs would fill me in on that. I've done searches but all I've found
is on
commercial sites that want to sell pulse transformers.

A first cut would be to calculate the inductive current over
the pulse duration and the transformed load current. As
long as the inductive current is less than the transformed
current, you are getting close.

Actually it is painted blue on one side and the other side and
circumference is
painted very light green. The core is from a Pulse Engineering
transformer but
I couldn't find any information on it anywhere on the web.

I think it is a powdered iron core, not ferrite, so it is
probably non conductive enough to not worry about insulating
the core. But the colors probably rule it out as a
Micrometals core:
http://www.micrometals.com/material/pcprop.html

But, regardless, based on your test of 2 uH with 8 turns,
you can predict pretty well the inductance of other windings
based on the inductance being proportional to the square of
the number of turns.

I'm guessing it is ferrite from what I assume was it's intended use. I
have two
cores so I can bust one open if that would give helpful information. I
would
think the low inductance I measured would mean it is a low mu core
intended
for high frequency use, but I stand to be corrected and educated on
that
assumption.

The inductance is probably too low for the core to be
ferrite. But powdered iron is fine for a pulse transformer,
since you don't have to worry about forcing exactly zero DC
bias in the drive circuit. The distributed gaps in the
powdered iron material make these cores much more resistant
to saturation than ungapped ferrite is.

 

[Spurious Response]

I wouldn't trust ordinary single layer varnish to stand
that. I would probably use kynar wire wrap wire or Teflon
insulated wire if I was going to do a trifilar.

Double strength mag would/should be fine. Even single strength has
over 350 Volts breakdown resistance, on a bad day. Also, if the turns
count is low enough, he could pipe the mag wire through a Teflon sleeve.

A good thing to do is wrap the toroid with transformer tape the way
they used to wrap tires a few decades back. It usually has about 1000V
per mil strength, if not more.

One could also dip the toroid in q-dope paint.

 

[MR COFFEE]

Thanks for all the replies.

what you need to do is a "splat test"

charge up a known, large cap to some voltage V, then "splat" it across
onw winding (other open-cct) and measure current (eg 0.1R resistor off
to scope).

Do I assume correctly that the resistor goes across one of the
secondaries in the "splat test"?

you will the current slope (dI/dt) gives you V/L, and if the
cap is large (c.f. energy in choke) then V is pretty much constant so
you can work out L. you can also see the core saturate (slopes upward, L
decreases), which will tell you how many Volt-Seconds the core can
handle (with that many turns), which then tells you what pulse width it
can cope with - you know the volts the driver cct will apply.

trifilar wound produces lowest leakeage, so best pulse shapes. if
leakage is too high, primary saturates before 2ndary goes very far.

Cheers
Terry

I will use some kynar ww wire for stronger insulation as suggested. I
will also put a resistor in series with the primary - good suggestion.

BTW - I tried searching both digikey and mouser for a SS relay that
would handle the amps - no dice. I know I've seen them surplus from
time to time but iirc they were pretty pricey compared to a couple of
SCRs (3 bucks).

I'm trying to use stuff I've got laying around. I've got all the parts
except the pulse transformer and SCRs.

 

[Terry Given]

Thanks for all the replies.



Do I assume correctly that the resistor goes across one of the
secondaries in the "splat test"?

yes. unless you happen to have a current probe (most people dont).

 

[MR COFFEE]

Thanks Terry.

 

[Werty]

MOC3xxx will trigger parallel SCR's .

trigger pulse may need to be extended

because of inductive loads on the SCR's ,

so i dont use transformers , they of course

would saturate , stop triggering the SCR's

just before they could accept the trigger

pulse !

---------


Measure inductances with a scope .

known voltage dumped into the inducter ,

the slope is so consistant at start , it

has no change , so put a strate edge on scope

and use lots more scope boxes , to get a mo

accurate "division" of the hor and vert boxes .


volts/henries = dir(amps)/dir(time in seconds).
-------- or ----------
henries = volts/ ( dir-amps/ dir-seconds ).

Put a low value R in the ground leg of your

ckt to send signal to scope .

------


figure the caps inductance to be far lower than

induct under test , figure the inductors R to be far


higher than all other R's ...



I got SolidState Relays from


BG Micro that use SCR's , rather than TRIACs .

They also have ALTERNISTORS , about $0.40 .





BTW I live in Guadalajara , San Juan de Dios ,
by the Tube ...
I saw the nut and bolt store south of me on
Revolution street

, tossing
the old 8 foot flour tubes and replacing with 8 twist
C.F. tubes ! Dark as a cave ! Fools .

Compact Flour' lites are BOGUS , they have starters
and heaters that limit life .

I had a 220 vac , 8 foot tube , i got used ,
it lasted the 23 years , til i sold the house
in 2000 ! No heaters , no starter .

 

[joseph2k]

Double strength mag would/should be fine. Even single strength has
over 350 Volts breakdown resistance, on a bad day. Also, if the turns
count is low enough, he could pipe the mag wire through a Teflon sleeve.

A good thing to do is wrap the toroid with transformer tape the way
they used to wrap tires a few decades back. It usually has about 1000V
per mil strength, if not more.

One could also dip the toroid in q-dope paint.

You do not seem to have mentioned doing the dip before the windings are
wound. Though it was implied.

 

[Jasen Betts]

Hi folks.
I am trying to put together Bill Bowden's thermostat circuit to
trigger back-to-back SCRs to turn on a water heater element run on
120v (to make a 500 watt heater).

If you can't get your hands on a scrap "Mr Coffee" to salvage parts from
(sorry, couldn't resist) consider using a MOC3010 (or similar)
optocoupler to switch a triac. (datasheet available from onsemi.com)

I used it, a thermistor, and a LM304 to make a thermostat a few years
ago. no PCB - I just epoxied the ICs down and soldered the Rs and Cs
point-to-point. it worked great. for the adjustment I used a multi-turn
pot from an old VCR.

I mounted the whole lot in an earthed metal case.

Bye.
Jasen