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good source for steel or iron machine screws for magnetic pickup pole pieces?

  • Thread starter Mad Scientist Jr
  • Start date
M

Mad Scientist Jr

I'm building a guitar pickup, and need steel or iron machine screws
(4-40x1-1/4 round or flat head, with nut) for the pole pieces. I
currently have zinc screws which aren't transferring the magnetism too
well, and I think iron/steel would be better. I'm only finding zinc
ones at the local Home Depot / Lowe's - can someone recommend a good
source for iron or steel ones online? Thanks...
 
I'm building a guitar pickup, and need steel or iron machine screws
(4-40x1-1/4 round or flat head, with nut) for the pole pieces. I
currently have zinc screws which aren't transferring the magnetism too
well, and I think iron/steel would be better. I'm only finding zinc
ones at the local Home Depot / Lowe's - can someone recommend a good
source for iron or steel ones online? Thanks...


You need to read a little bit more about metals and magnetism.
Those zinc screws are made of carbon steel. they only have a thin
coating of zinc plated on (also called "galvanized") to keep them from
rusting.

If you are not conducting the magnetic flux well, it's not the screws'
fault, it's your magnetic circuit design.

(unless you accidently grab stainless steels instead of zinc plated
ones).

Tho
 
T

Tony Done

Mad Scientist Jr said:
I'm building a guitar pickup, and need steel or iron machine screws
(4-40x1-1/4 round or flat head, with nut) for the pole pieces. I
currently have zinc screws which aren't transferring the magnetism too
well, and I think iron/steel would be better. I'm only finding zinc
ones at the local Home Depot / Lowe's - can someone recommend a good
source for iron or steel ones online? Thanks...

Like Tho says, zinc, chrome or nickel plated screws are fine - I use them -
but stainless steel as found in screws is not ferromagnetic and will not
work. If in doubt, take a small magnet with you when you go to buy them, and
check that what you are getting is ferromagnetic.

Tony D
 
M

Mad Scientist Jr

Thanks for both your replies...

The screws are definitely magnetic - I have a Radio Shack 'rare earth'
magnet, which is pretty strong and sticks to the screw like glue.

The problem is that the other end of the screw isn't picking up the
magnetism - a 2nd screw doesn't stick to it too strongly.

However a regular guitar pickup, say a single coil from a strat, has a
magnet underneath the pole, and a screw sticks to the pole pretty
good.

Why isn't the magnetism traveling down to the other end of the screw?

Thanks again
 
T

Tony Done

Mad Scientist Jr said:
Thanks for both your replies...

The screws are definitely magnetic - I have a Radio Shack 'rare earth'
magnet, which is pretty strong and sticks to the screw like glue.

The problem is that the other end of the screw isn't picking up the
magnetism - a 2nd screw doesn't stick to it too strongly.

However a regular guitar pickup, say a single coil from a strat, has a
magnet underneath the pole, and a screw sticks to the pole pretty
good.

Why isn't the magnetism traveling down to the other end of the screw?

Thanks again
It might be the way you have the magnets arranged. I have tried various
configurations, and some leave more magnetic strength at the top of the pole
pieces than others. The pole side of the magnet has to be touching the iron
pole piece, not one of the "neutral" sides.

Tony D
 
F

Fletch

However a regular guitar pickup, say a single coil from a strat, has a
magnet underneath the pole, and a screw sticks to the pole pretty
good.

Um... the pole pieces on strat and tele pickups ARE the magnets. Now,
a P-90 is as you describe.

--Fletch
 
T

Tony Done

Fletch said:
Um... the pole pieces on strat and tele pickups ARE the magnets. Now,
a P-90 is as you describe.

--Fletch

Some strat pickups, usually but not always cheap, have iron pole pieces and
a ceramic magnet. On a very few (Bill Lawrence?) they are adjustable. I have
converted standard alnico-slug-type plastic-bobbin strat pickups to
adjustable pole piece with ceramic magnets.

Tony D
 
J

Jasen

I'm building a guitar pickup, and need steel or iron machine screws
(4-40x1-1/4 round or flat head, with nut) for the pole pieces.
I currently have zinc screws which aren't transferring the magnetism too
well, and I think iron/steel would be better. I'm only finding zinc
ones at the local Home Depot / Lowe's - can someone recommend a good
source for iron or steel ones online? Thanks...

If they stick to a magnet they're steel, (and only zinc plated)
Guitar signals are small, you won't find better mild steel screws.

I've never seen (solid) zinc screws in a hardware store that'd be a
speciality item. Zinc-plated screws ar very common however.

Bye.
Jasen
 
M

Mogens V.

Tony said:
It might be the way you have the magnets arranged. I have tried various
configurations, and some leave more magnetic strength at the top of the pole
pieces than others. The pole side of the magnet has to be touching the iron
pole piece, not one of the "neutral" sides.

Tony D

Or maybe better, use long poles and have them touch all along the side
of the magnet, which may not be possible, depending on the pup design.
If it's a single coil construction, using two slim magnets touching on
either side of long poles may be a possibility.
For a humbucker, use a center magnet with long poles down either side.

For a pup redesign, I once used simple black mashine screws from a
mashine parts toolshop with good results. I chose flat headed screws
with a rather small allen wrench hole designed for recessed mountings to
have a somewhat large diameter pole piece under the strings. YMMV...
 
T

Tony Done

Mogens V. said:
If it's a single coil construction, using two slim magnets touching on
either side of long poles may be a possibility.

If I understand you correctly, that's what I do. The pole pieces are screws
that project below the bottom of the coil in a brass plate, and the magnets
touch from either side, with the pole same pole facing inwards - eg North in
towards the poles.


Works well for me.


Tony D
 
M

Mogens V.

Tony said:
If I understand you correctly, that's what I do. The pole pieces are screws
that project below the bottom of the coil in a brass plate, and the magnets
touch from either side, with the pole same pole facing inwards - eg North in
towards the poles.

Works well for me.

Yup, seems we agree on the howto, except it seems you force two same
poles (i.e. north-north) against oneanother (with pup poles in-between).
If that's correct, I don't understand why, as two same poles will do all
they can to counteract one another.
I'd use magnet1_north--pup_poles--magnet2_south.
If you do do as you state, the weakened magnetic field might still be
strong enough, and even be part of a tone and response you like,
designed or not, science or no science :-D

Do you have this design adjusted somewhat close to the strings, and in
which position, neck/mid/bridge?
 
T

Tony Done

Mogens V. said:
Yup, seems we agree on the howto, except it seems you force two same poles
(i.e. north-north) against oneanother (with pup poles in-between).
If that's correct, I don't understand why, as two same poles will do all
they can to counteract one another.
I'd use magnet1_north--pup_poles--magnet2_south.
If you do do as you state, the weakened magnetic field might still be
strong enough, and even be part of a tone and response you like, designed
or not, science or no science :-D

Do you have this design adjusted somewhat close to the strings, and in
which position, neck/mid/bridge?

This is a strat type pickup we are talking about, and it works well as I
described it. - You have the pole piece mounted in a non-ferromagnetic plate
(important, eg brass), and force the two same magnet poles into opposition
to each other with the end of the pole piece between them. The result is a
magnetic attraction at the opposite "working" end of the pole piece which
seems to be something like the **sum** of the two magnets used, any way, it
is fairly powerful by pickup standards. I just went to my workshop and tried
it in a jury rigged set up with a short iron bar and a couple of small
ceramic magnets, just to be sure I was right. I am, try it and see. Other
configurations I tried gave a weaker attraction at the working end of the
pole piece.

I also plan on experiment with a "National" type single coil set up where
the magnets are mounted under an iron plate into which the pole pieces are
mounted. The magnets have the same polarity **up**, eg north, not inwards.
This is how my Lollar "Chicago" pickup is made, but my attempts so far have
resulted in a very weak magnetic attraction at the working end of the
poles - I need try some more.


Tony D
 
M

Mogens V.

Tony said:
This is a strat type pickup we are talking about, and it works well as I
described it. - You have the pole piece mounted in a non-ferromagnetic plate
(important, eg brass), and force the two same magnet poles into opposition
to each other with the end of the pole piece between them. The result is a
magnetic attraction at the opposite "working" end of the pole piece which
seems to be something like the **sum** of the two magnets used, any way, it
is fairly powerful by pickup standards. I just went to my workshop and tried
it in a jury rigged set up with a short iron bar and a couple of small
ceramic magnets, just to be sure I was right. I am, try it and see. Other
configurations I tried gave a weaker attraction at the working end of the
pole piece.

Yeah, I was thinking about the magnetic field pattern after posting.
What you achieve is having two north poles sum onto the poles, so the
field lines go from the pole pieces to the 'free air' south poles.
Makes sense. Just didn't see it at 3 am ;)
I also plan on experiment with a "National" type single coil set up where
the magnets are mounted under an iron plate into which the pole pieces are
mounted. The magnets have the same polarity **up**, eg north, not inwards.
This is how my Lollar "Chicago" pickup is made, but my attempts so far have
resulted in a very weak magnetic attraction at the working end of the
poles - I need try some more.

For which you may have to counteract with more windings, which of cause
will produce a differenly sounding pup.

Bill Lawrence 450L (slim blade humbucker), which I have on one of my
axes, doesn't have too much field strength, is wound with fine wire, and
has a nice clean tone with lotsa top end. The XL model is different with
higher impedance and has less top with an aggressive tone.
Both are extremely sensitive to distance to strings, which makes it
especially problemematic for the 450L at neck position, where string to
pole distance varies more between open strings and high fretting.

My Mighty Mite MotherBucker (three coil thingy, called the MotherFucker
in those days) is just loaded with AlNiCo's, and has to be lowered well
under the strings. AFAICS, it's wound with a thicker wire, and produce a
clean tone, just not with that much top end.

What's fun is that the two axes cannot share all presets in my gear.
Some settings makes the MotherFucker sound screaming with unpleasant
resonance peaks, whereas the 450 one is very forgiving.

The input to my ADA MP2 is 390Kohm, based on a Burr Brown opamp, which,
combined with possible incorrect choise of pots in the MotherF* axe
(i.e. improper loading on the pup), may be causing some problems.
Guess it's time for a closer look...
 
M

Mad Scientist Jr

I tried this yesterday - I took two radio shack "rare earth" magnets

http://www.radioshack.com/sm-rare-earth-super-magnets--pi-2102642.html

and stuck one to the bottom of the screw (the end opposite the head),
then I took a 2nd one, and stuck faced its pole towards the like pole
of the 1st magnet (so they repulsed each other), and stuck it to the
opposite side of the screw (evidently its attraction to the screw was
stronger than its repulsion from the magnet on the opposite side of
the screw). A 2nd screw stuck to the head of the screw, although not
as strongly as I would have liked (not nearly as strongly as the 1st
screw stuck to the magnets). I did try turning one of the magnets
around so the south pole of one faced the north pole of the other, and
in this configuration, a 2nd screw did not stick to the head of the
1st screw. Is there any way I can get the magnetism to be stronger?

Probably (as everyone has said) these are zinc-plated carbon steel
screws. Can someone tell me if it would be a better idea for me to
somehow permanently magnetize the screws themselves and use them as
the magnets instead of placing a magnet underneath? I recall reading a
science book as a kid some way to magnetize a nail by attaching a wire
from a 12v dry cell and coiling it around the nail but I don't recall
the details. I would want the screw to be more or less permanently
magnetized - not have to "recharge" it every couple of years - and be
a strong enough magnet to serve as a good guitar pickup pole.

If this isn't possible, any advice on better placement of the magnets
or better magnets to use? I would prefer an individual magnet per pole
piece.

Any help appreciated...Thanks again.
 
M

Mogens V.

Mad said:
Probably (as everyone has said) these are zinc-plated carbon steel
screws. Can someone tell me if it would be a better idea for me to
somehow permanently magnetize the screws themselves and use them as
the magnets instead of placing a magnet underneath? I recall reading a
science book as a kid some way to magnetize a nail by attaching a wire
from a 12v dry cell and coiling it around the nail but I don't recall
the details. I would want the screw to be more or less permanently
magnetized - not have to "recharge" it every couple of years - and be
a strong enough magnet to serve as a good guitar pickup pole.

Don't think you'll be able to provide enough magnetic field strength
this way to magnetize the screws even to the force your magnets will
provide - by far.
Sure you're lacking magnetic force? Could be your winding technique..
Lotsa magnet force may not be that desireable; you might end up finding
you'd have to lower the assembly a good deal to avoid pulling strings.
Of cause, I don't know your design, so...
 
J

Jasen

I tried this yesterday - I took two radio shack "rare earth" magnets

http://www.radioshack.com/sm-rare-earth-super-magnets--pi-2102642.html

and stuck one to the bottom of the screw (the end opposite the head),
then I took a 2nd one, and stuck faced its pole towards the like pole
of the 1st magnet (so they repulsed each other), and stuck it to the
opposite side of the screw (evidently its attraction to the screw was
stronger than its repulsion from the magnet on the opposite side of
the screw). A 2nd screw stuck to the head of the screw, although not
as strongly as I would have liked (not nearly as strongly as the 1st
screw stuck to the magnets). I did try turning one of the magnets
around so the south pole of one faced the north pole of the other, and
in this configuration, a 2nd screw did not stick to the head of the
1st screw. Is there any way I can get the magnetism to be stronger?

.-------------------------------------------------------------.
| This is an ascii schematic, if the diagram appears garbled |
| try switching to a fixed-pitch font (courier works well) |
| pasting it into notepad works well on ms-windows. |
| or in google groups "view source" (found under options) |
`-------------------------------------------------------------'

### screw <<< magnet @@@@@@@@@ steel bar

@@@@@@@@@@
## <<<@@@@@@@@@@
########<<<@@@@@@@@@@
########<<<@@@@@@@@@@
## <<<@@@@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@@@@


putting a nut on the end of the screw may help too.

NN nut

@@@@@@@@@@
## NN<<<@@@@@@@@@@
######NN<<<@@@@@@@@@@
######NN<<<@@@@@@@@@@
## NN<<<@@@@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@@@@

grinding the paces where the nut and screw meet the magnet flat will
help too.

it'll may be even stronger if you use U-channel like this

@@@@@@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@@@@@@
@@@
@@@
@@@
@@@
## NN<<<@@@
########<<<@@@
########<<<@@@
## NN<<<@@@
@@@
@@@
@@@
@@@
@@@@@@@@@@@@
@@@@@@@@@@@@
Probably (as everyone has said) these are zinc-plated carbon steel
screws.

AIUI you should use mild steel (not carbon steel).
Can someone tell me if it would be a better idea for me to
somehow permanently magnetize the screws themselves and use them as
the magnets instead of placing a magnet underneath?

it's not possible to permanenty magnetise ordinary steel.
I recall reading a
science book as a kid some way to magnetize a nail by attaching a wire
from a 12v dry cell and coiling it around the nail but I don't recall
the details.

I did that once, using a car battery, the coil exploded, the magnetised
4" nail could lift another similar nail. the magnetism lasted for about
36 hours, by the end of the week it could barely lift a carpet tack
I would want the screw to be more or less permanently
magnetized - not have to "recharge" it every couple of years - and be
a strong enough magnet to serve as a good guitar pickup pole.

you could try winding the coil round your neodymium magnet instead
of round the screw.

Bye.
Jasen
 
M

Mogens V.

Jasen said:
you could try winding the coil round your neodymium magnet instead
of round the screw.

I was thinking of the same. Neodynium magnets are available in rod shape
too, so it's possible to use them like old style iron magnet poles.
Only, being quite forceful as the are, I don't know how much they'll
interfere with one another. Maybe having them touch onto an iron plate
underneath would do.
 
M

Mad Scientist Jr

AIUI you should use mild steel (not carbon steel).

What is "mild steel"? Any idea where to find machine screws
(4-40x1-1/4 round or flat head, with nut) made with this?

Regarding the ascii diagram below, showing the piece of iron
underneath - how does this work? Does the iron bar extend the magnetic
field to a wider area?

Thanks...
 
M

Mogens V.

Mad said:
What is "mild steel"?

Dunno what was really meant, but since mashine screws often needs to
carry some load/torque, and thus be quite strong/hard, I'd guess mild
steel simply means steel without the carbon component.
What you'd really be after might be the type of soft iron used in i.e.
tranformers. Again, dunno what it's called in expert circles.
You can create soft iron from non-carbon steel by heating it to glow
temperature, IIRC.

You know, poles doesn't have to be round, so another idea might be to
call some shop repairing electric motors or building transformers, and
obtain some of that soft iron in sheet form. cut it in strips, and
laminate those with lacquer to form square shaped poles.
Note that in a laminated constructon, you'll most likely obtain the best
magnetic capabilities when keeping the strips isolated from one another,
else you may have problems with eddie currents.

Your choice of screws is a matter of easy availability plus some
adjustability, I'd guess, no?
If you finesand the finished square poles, you can make them glide up
and down with some applied force for adjustability, if need be, thiugh
once you have worked out the formula, you may not need adjustability.

Welcome to the world of science ;) (nope, I'm not a scientist, just
electronics educated).
You'll most likely quickly find yourself digging through books of theory
for understanding induction, capacitance, magnetic forces, hysteresis,
saturation in magnetic cores (though the latter is hardly applicable to
pups, it's good understanding it) eddie currents et al...
This is what other puppie designers have gone through, plus lotsa
experiments.
Any idea where to find machine screws
(4-40x1-1/4 round or flat head, with nut) made with this?

Mmnn, mashine tool shops, maybe?
 
J

Jasen

What is "mild steel"? Any idea where to find machine screws
(4-40x1-1/4 round or flat head, with nut) made with this?

a soft kind of steel, hacksaw blades are made from carbon steel
tie wire is made from the softest mild steel. most bolts and screws
are made from steel if intermediate hardness.
Regarding the ascii diagram below, showing the piece of iron
underneath - how does this work? Does the iron bar extend the magnetic
field to a wider area?

yeah sort of

Bye.
Jasen
 
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