Germany identifies a secure way to deal with spam

[Don McKenzie]

Germany identifies a secure way to deal with spam

In theory, stopping spam is easy: just make it uneconomic to send millions of messages by charging for each one sent, or
make senders authenticate their identity to stop address spoofing and simplify blocking.

In practice, that would involve building a secure, parallel e-mail infrastructure linking electronic authentication with
real-world identities: a daunting task. Yet that's just what Germany is about to do.

De-mail -- a play on the country-code abbreviation for Deutschland (Germany) and the word e-mail -- is a
government-backed service in which all messages will be encrypted and digitally signed so they cannot be intercepted or
modified in transit. Businesses and individuals wanting to send or receive De-mail messages will have to prove their
real-world identity and associate that with a new De-mail address from a government-approved service provider. The
service will be enabled by a new law that the government expects will be in force by the end of this month. It will
allow service providers to charge for sending messages if they wish.

Full Story:
http://www.arnnet.com.au/article/378788/germany_identifies_secure_way_deal_spam/

============================

If you have a look at the possible cost of each email, they are talking up to $0.75USD.
If it was a cent or two an email, it may work, and snowball to other countries. I would certainly support it, and want
to be involved.

But at that price, it will never fly. A waste of time and resources.
I can see Germans being forced into using it.
Then start up email services all over the world will be offering cheaper alternatives. Can you imagine it?

Cheers Don...

===========================



--
Don McKenzie

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[Adrian Jansen]

Germany identifies a secure way to deal with spam

In theory, stopping spam is easy: just make it uneconomic to send
millions of messages by charging for each one sent, or make senders
authenticate their identity to stop address spoofing and simplify blocking.

In practice, that would involve building a secure, parallel e-mail
infrastructure linking electronic authentication with real-world
identities: a daunting task. Yet that's just what Germany is about to do.

De-mail -- a play on the country-code abbreviation for Deutschland
(Germany) and the word e-mail -- is a government-backed service in which
all messages will be encrypted and digitally signed so they cannot be
intercepted or modified in transit. Businesses and individuals wanting
to send or receive De-mail messages will have to prove their real-world
identity and associate that with a new De-mail address from a
government-approved service provider. The service will be enabled by a
new law that the government expects will be in force by the end of this
month. It will allow service providers to charge for sending messages if
they wish.

Full Story:
http://www.arnnet.com.au/article/378788/germany_identifies_secure_way_deal_spam/


============================

If you have a look at the possible cost of each email, they are talking
up to $0.75USD.
If it was a cent or two an email, it may work, and snowball to other
countries. I would certainly support it, and want to be involved.

But at that price, it will never fly. A waste of time and resources.
I can see Germans being forced into using it.
Then start up email services all over the world will be offering cheaper
alternatives. Can you imagine it?

Cheers Don...

===========================

Yes, even 1 cent per email would stop virtually all the spam. Just need
to find a way of actually charging the originator.

 

[terryc]

Maybe they haven't heard of yahoo mail or gmail, I get almost no spam
from either of these.

Join a few groups and learn.
Wanna spam thousands, just create a yahoo identity and spam, spam, spam,
spam.

 

[Rod Speed]

Maybe they haven't heard of yahoo mail or gmail,
I get almost no spam from either of these.

I still get a lot of spam to the yahoo address that I used to use in usenet.

Get much less to the gmail address that I now use after
Horry pointed out how much better it is at spam handling.

Of course, if it was a widely advertised email address, this might be a different story.

It is indeed. I get almost no spam to my other yahoo address,
just the stuff from places I have dealt with using it like godaddy.

I would rather have the spam, than have any government
regulating my email in any way, or charging for sending it.

Me too, particularly when gmail does a very decent job for free.

Imagine living in Germany and having that deadshit government
taking my tax money and giving it to hopeless deadshit socialist
countries like Greece, etc in un-repayable loans

Careful, or it will be off to the concentration camp for you, boy.

 

[Rod Speed]

kreed wrote

Its quite possible that that is in our futures,

Nope, they've gone out of fashion now.

especially in the USA.

Nope, Obummer isnt even sending anyone else to Gitmo anymore.

He wont even be sending Gadaffi, you watch.

 

[Thomas K]

De-mail -- a play on the country-code abbreviation for Deutschland (Germany) and the word e-mail -- is a
government-backed service in which all messages will be encrypted and digitally signed so they cannot be intercepted or
modified in transit. Businesses and individuals wanting to send or receive De-mail messages will have to prove their
real-world identity and associate that with a new De-mail address from a government-approved service provider. The
service will be enabled by a new law that the government expects will be in force by the end of this month. It will
allow service providers to charge for sending messages if they wish.

Encrypted so that it can't be intercepted by whom...

Spam is a big problem but it isn't so big that it needs a pay-to-send
Government-run scheme to avoid it. Anybody with half a brain will
realise that this isn't going to work since nobody else in the world
uses Deutschland email, so normal email will be required anyway.

Does anybody else think that this is a poorly concealed attempt at
Government snooping on who's communicating with whom (and possibly
even what they're communicating about)?

 

[atec77]

Encrypted so that it can't be intercepted by whom...

Spam is a big problem but it isn't so big that it needs a pay-to-send
Government-run scheme to avoid it. Anybody with half a brain will
realise that this isn't going to work since nobody else in the world
uses Deutschland email, so normal email will be required anyway.

Does anybody else think that this is a poorly concealed attempt at
Government snooping on who's communicating with whom (and possibly
even what they're communicating about)?

Ve ar nut tacing ovur de wurld

 

[Rod Speed]

Thomas K wrote

Encrypted so that it can't be intercepted by whom...

By anyone.

Spam is a big problem but it isn't so big that it needs a pay-to-send
Government-run scheme to avoid it. Anybody with half a brain will
realise that this isn't going to work since nobody else in the world
uses Deutschland email, so normal email will be required anyway.

They are clearly suggesting that others adopt the same approach.

Does anybody else think that this is a poorly concealed attempt
at Government snooping on who's communicating with whom
(and possibly even what they're communicating about)?

Only the mindlessly paranoid.

 

[Rod Speed]

kreed wrote

That was the first thing I thought it was.

Thats coz you are one of the mindless paranoid.

As people quite rightly won't stand for internet censorship,

All of them do with child porn.

or restrictions the scumbags might try and do it in
socially acceptable "pieces", this being one of them.

Nope. Its just a rather stupid approach to reducing spam.

The other nasty that keeps popping up in the news is
this "cyber bullying" - IE: another smokescreen to justify
curbing freedom of speech and opinion, and to possibly
justify censoring the net, or restricting access.

So you are actually claiming that we should be able to advocate murder and assasination too ?

Presumably you actually are that stupid.

Also the laughable de(viate)-mail is a good way to rip more tax money out of people,

Nope, at that charge, they are clearly attempting to get it to pay for itself.

(which will just be flushed away by the gov with little public benefit as always).

Mindlessly superficial.

Without govt spending, you'd have not net at all, stupid. It wouldnt have even been invented.

 

[Thomas K]

Using port 25. All data connections to SMTP servers come from IP
addresses and can tracked.

The problem is that it's like shutting the gate after the horse has
bolted. If the ISPs had started out with a small cost per email and
maybe lower general fees, it would have been accepted just like SMS is
charged separately for mobiles.

If the ISPs had started out with a small cost per email, a new
protocol would have been invented which you don't have to pay for.

 

[Thomas K]

Thomas K wrote

Only the mindlessly paranoid.

Why? Because governments don't do that sort of thing?

http://www.techeye.net/mobile/rim-buckles-on-indias-blackberry-encryption-pressure

The ministry's reasoning for snooping was, as usual, potential
terrorist threats. A terrorist could use BlackBerry email and
messaging services to coordinate and plot attacks as
information exchanged on these channels couldn't be monitored
at the time.

After reinstating services the government ordered RIM to come
up with something that would give intelligence agencies
complete access to all services offered on its handsets by
October. This would include RIM being forced to hand over the
encryption keys and codes of its corporate mail and messaging
services. The extension to January 2011 was given after RIM
pushed for a timeframe of 23 weeks in August, while it worked
out how to cooperate without breaching data protection laws.

 

[Rod Speed]

Thomas K wrote

Why?

Because its only the mindlessly paranoid that 'think' like that.

Because governments don't do that sort of thing?

Not like that they dont, because they dont need to do it like that.

You dont SERIOUSLY believe that no govt is doing anything
about checking for terrorists communicating right now do you ?

They dont need that sort of hare brained scheme to snoop as much as they like.

http://www.techeye.net/mobile/rim-buckles-on-indias-blackberry-encryption-pressure

Just because those fools couldnt work out how to snoop at the time proves nothing.

The ministry's reasoning for snooping was, as usual, potential
terrorist threats. A terrorist could use BlackBerry email and
messaging services to coordinate and plot attacks as information
exchanged on these channels couldn't be monitored at the time.

After reinstating services the government ordered RIM to
come up with something that would give intelligence agencies
complete access to all services offered on its handsets by
October. This would include RIM being forced to hand over the
encryption keys and codes of its corporate mail and messaging
services. The extension to January 2011 was given after RIM
pushed for a timeframe of 23 weeks in August, while it worked
out how to cooperate without breaching data protection laws.

Just because those fools couldnt work out how to snoop at the time proves nothing.

 

[Rod Speed]

kreed wrote

Terrorist threats that are largely staged by governments

Mindlessly silly. That isnt what happened with 9/11, Madrid, London,
Mumbai, Bali etc etc etc.

(or allowed to happen)

Even sillier. That isnt what happened with 9/11, Madrid, London,
Mumbai, Bali etc etc etc.

in order to justify this sort or rubbish for other reasons,
such as stripping away people's rights.

Completely off with the fucking fairys, as always.

Both parties do it. Look at Obama, except for a crock of
left wing bullshit thrown in it is just GWB's 3rd term in office.

How odd that the he hasnt staged even a single event like 9/11.

You're completely off with the fucking fairys.

 

[Rod Speed]

kreed wrote

Hmm,, underwear bomber, christmas tree bomber etc.

None done by Obummer, fool.

All complete with more laws to come down hard on the average person.

Just another of your pathetic little drug crazed fantasys.

There were NO new laws after those two clown.

He's right.

Yes, I know it was me.

 

[Rod Speed]

kreed wrote

naked body scanners and patdown grope searches ?

Those werent laws and werent done as a result of either of those two clowns either.

 

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed wrote

kreed wrote

Those werent laws and werent done as a result of either of those two clowns either.

And they didnt 'come down hard on the average person' either.

 

[Thomas K]

Thomas K wrote


Because its only the mindlessly paranoid that 'think' like that.

I heard you the first time. Care to explain yourself rather than
repeat yourself?

Are you suggesting that it is paranoid to suspect that governments
want to spy on the citizenry for self-serving rather than altruistic
ends? Or perhaps that it's paranoid to suspect that they're up to no
good when it's under the name of such a good and honourable cause as
cutting down on spam? (Of course, I consider both to be justified.)

Not like that they dont, because they dont need to do it like that.

You dont SERIOUSLY believe that no govt is doing anything
about checking for terrorists communicating right now do you ?

Of course not. They're doing everything they can. As much as they love
their security theatre which reassures their people that the bad guys
are being kept out so they can win elections, they'll jump at the
chance to get any data which might actually be useful for
counter-terrorism. I have no doubts about that.

They dont need that sort of hare brained scheme to snoop as much as they like.

Actually, they do. Even if the German government already monitors all
email transactions on their own ISPs, a lot will be sent via dedicated
servers in datacentres in other countries or via cloud-based or
web-based services so the details of emails coming and going are not
transparent.

They are also unable to break the encryption. I'm not quite yet ready
to swallow a conspiracy theory that the SHA-3 contest is all a sham to
produce algorithms which are already broken.

So it is very difficult for Germany to monitor something like https
google apps, or a company with a VPN to a mailserver in the US.

This applies to more than email, but email is a valuable point to
target for intelligence if you want to make a focused effort.

Just because those fools couldnt work out how to snoop at the time proves nothing.

End-to-end encryption works. And they _have_ figured out to do it --
ask for the keys. I suspect it wouldn't slide in Germany though.

*snip*

Just because those fools couldnt work out how to snoop at the time proves nothing.

You have a sticky yank key.

 

[Rod Speed]

Thomas K wrote

I heard you the first time.

Cretins usually do benefit from repetition, it takes time to get thru their ear to ear bone.

Care to explain yourself

Just did.

rather than repeat yourself?

I did both.

Are you suggesting that it is paranoid to suspect that governments
want to spy on the citizenry for self-serving rather than altruistic ends?

Yes it is when its so easy for them to do that if they want to without
bothering to try to get people to use some hare brained govt email system.

Or perhaps that it's paranoid to suspect that they're up to no good
when it's under the name of such a good and honourable cause as
cutting down on spam?

Or perhaps not.

(Of course, I consider both to be justified.)

More fool you. But then you are one of the mindlessly paranoid.

Of course not. They're doing everything they can.

And clearly when they have caught so many of them, it must be working.

As much as they love their security theatre which reassures
their people that the bad guys are being kept out

They clearly have avoided another 9/11 or worse.

so they can win elections,

Or they prefer to not have another 9/11. Radical, I know.

they'll jump at the chance to get any data which might actually be useful for counter-terrorism.

They dont get any more than they can currently get with the existing email systems.

I have no doubts about that.

More fool you. But then you are one of the mindlessly paranoid.

Actually, they do.

Actually, they dont.

Even if the German government already monitors all email
transactions on their own ISPs, a lot will be sent via dedicated
servers in datacentres in other countries or via cloud-based or
web-based services so the details of emails coming and going
are not transparent.

Those arent going to use de-mail, stupid.

And it isnt hard to snoop on those other approaches anyway.

They are also unable to break the encryption.

Those that currently encrypt their emails can keep doing that with de-mail, stupid.

I'm not quite yet ready to swallow a conspiracy theory that the SHA-3
contest is all a sham to produce algorithms which are already broken.

So it is very difficult for Germany to monitor something like https google apps,

Wrong, as always. And de-mail wont do anything about that anyway.

or a company with a VPN to a mailserver in the US.

Wrong, as always. And de-mail wont do anything about that anyway.

This applies to more than email, but email is a valuable point
to target for intelligence if you want to make a focused effort.

Anyone who wants to do that is doing that already. Dont need de-mail to do that.

End-to-end encryption works.

Yes, and de-mail wont have any effect on that.

And they _have_ figured out to do it -- ask for the keys.

Doesnt work when those with the keys make an obscene
gesture in your general direction when asked for them.

I suspect it wouldn't slide in Germany though.

Yep, they tend to be a bit paranoid about police states.

Cant imagine why for the life of me.

*snip*

You have a sticky yank key.

You're the only one wanking all over your keyboard, child.