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Finally, Death of the 3.5 inch floppy disk

A

atec7 7

Magnum said:
Hardly surprising because Sneakernet with a floppy = 1.4Mb.

Sneakernet with a USB stick = several Gb.
Tell that to any older machine that wont usb boot or certain version of
winblows if it needs sata or other drivers on install
 
G

George Neuner

I have some disks from 1993 that are still readable. I have some from later
that are gibberish, reformat did not help them come back to life. Guess it
depends on the manufacturer.

You can *sometimes* revive old diskettes with media level tools like
SpinRite ... but diskettes gradually lose their magnetic media (the
head touches them) so it depends on how much has been lost. Even if
the diskette appears unreadable to the OS, IME you can usually recover
most of the data from it.

George
 
G

George Neuner

Stuart Longland wrote:
some of the [diskettes] I have at home are slowly decaying with age.

Interesting. What's decaying about them? I've got Fuji MF2HD from the
90's and they still work fine.

The media does not have high enough coercivity to retain magnetic
alignment indefinitely - given enough time it loses orientation and
your data simply fades away.
And unlike hard disks, diskette R/W heads actually touch the recording
surface and gradually wear away the media.

George
 
J

Joerg

George said:
Stuart Longland wrote:
some of the [diskettes] I have at home are slowly decaying with age.

Interesting. What's decaying about them? I've got Fuji MF2HD from the
90's and they still work fine.

The media does not have high enough coercivity to retain magnetic
alignment indefinitely - given enough time it loses orientation and
your data simply fades away.


Hmm, I have disks dating back to 1990 and none of them has ever lost
data or caused read errors. But some posters said that they still can
have lost writeability. No idea why.

I did always make sure to never buy disks from dubious sources but
always the good stuff, name brands.

And unlike hard disks, diskette R/W heads actually touch the recording
surface and gradually wear away the media.

Yes, and that wear is clearly visible. However, the typical disk is used
as file storage and only once in a while read back, and then only small
parts of it.
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

Yes, and that wear is clearly visible. However, the typical disk is used
as file storage and only once in a while read back, and then only small
parts of it.

I have an old HP logic analyzer that boots off of a floppy.
 
R

Rod Speed

larwe said:
HA!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/8646699.stm


The mystery of the mega-selling floppy disk
By Jason Palmer
BBC News

Sony has said it will stop making floppy disks, after nearly three
decades of manufacture. Yet millions of them are still being bought
every year. But who is actually buying them?

Stack of floppy disks (Eyewire)
That's about one snap on a brand new digital camera

The floppy disk is the very symbol of storage; when you want to save a
file, you go looking for that little icon that looks like a floppy.

Every year another computer manufacturer stops putting floppy drives
in its machines, or a retailer stops selling the disks. Each time the
cry goes up that the death knell has been sounded for the floppy disk.

However, Verbatim, a UK manufacturer which makes more than a quarter
of the floppies sold in the UK, says it sells hundreds of thousands of
them a month. It sells millions more in Europe.

"We've been discussing the death of the floppy for 14 years, ever
since CD technology first started coming on strong," says Verbatim
spokesman Kevin Jefcoate.

Yet what was Sony's best-selling peripheral for its computers in
recent years? The 3.5-inch floppy disk drive that connects via a USB
cable.

Somewhere out there, the floppy disk is alive and well. But where?

Disk-credited

The truth is the 3½-inch, 1.44 megabyte floppy - the disk that made it
big - has always defied logic. It's not floppy for a start. The term
was a hangover from its precursor, the 5¼-inch floppy, which had a
definite lack of rigidness about it. However, its smaller successor
held 15 times as much data.

But then along came the CD-ROM, and then the USB flash drive shamed
them both; the most voluminous USB stick - which could pass for a
keyring - can now hold nearly 90,000 floppies' worth of data.

"Old habits die hard, I guess... If you you don't do much in the way
of photography or music, then why would you change?
John Delaney, research director for IT analysts IDC

Sony signals end for floppy disks

One might be tempted to think that, like the vinyl enthusiasts who
insist music sounds "warmer" on a record, the floppy has its own fan
club. But unlike the case of vinyl, a digital format of a floppy is no
different than that found on your hard drive or USB stick.

Given their limited size and speed of data transfer, along with their
increasing obsolescence, it's harder to find a floppy fan club than it
is to find a laptop with a floppy drive built in.

But what about all the second-hand computers that are donated to the
developing world? Could they be even partly responsible for the
thousands of disks still sold?

Anja Ffrench of Computer Aid International - the largest charity
working to distribute recycled IT to Africa and South America - says
that they only deal in computers from 2002 and later, meaning that
they'll have the USB connection that obviates the need for floppies.

There are a few instances for which floppies remain the norm, like the
specialist, high-value technology that may rely on floppy drives for
data.

Saving grace

The vast desks that control the light shows and sounds settings in
theatres or music venues have until recently come with floppy drives
as standard; the English National Opera is just one example of an
organisation that uses them.
Mixing desk, Top of the Pops
One place you might find at least a few floppy disks
A volunteer at the National Museum of Computing says that many
scientific instruments - so-called dataloggers, oscilloscopes and the
like - record their data onto floppies.

In fact sweet **** all of them do.
This kind of expensive equipment is made to last, to be bought
infrequently - and these gadgets may call for at least a few floppies
in their lifetimes.

Pure fantasy.
But these relatively niche uses couldn't possibly account for the
number of floppies - something like a million a month - that are being
consumed in the UK alone.
The answer may simply be that there are a
great many old computers that read only floppies,

In fact sweet **** all of them are actually used anymore.
and a great many computer users that have no need for the
storage media that have supplanted them in other quarters.

Even sillier.
Rather than there being one industry propped up on the values of a
floppy, or a horde of enthusiasts buying up the world's supply, they
may simply be as much as many computer users need.

Even sillier.
"Old habits die hard, I guess," said John Delaney, research director
for IT analysts IDC.
"If you've been using PCs for a long time and you don't do much in the
way of photography or music with them, then why would you change?

Because floppys are so unreliable, stupid.
"There are people who ride technology for as long as it can be ridden without falling over."

Doesnt happen with floppys that fall over all the time.
 
R

Rod Speed

George said:
Stuart Longland wrote:
some of the [diskettes] I have at home are slowly decaying with age.

Interesting. What's decaying about them? I've got Fuji MF2HD from the
90's and they still work fine.

The media does not have high enough coercivity to retain magnetic
alignment indefinitely - given enough time it loses orientation and
your data simply fades away.

Doesnt explain the claim that they can be read fine and the problem is with new writes.
And unlike hard disks, diskette R/W heads actually touch the recording
surface and gradually wear away the media.

See above.
 
S

SG1

George Neuner said:
You can *sometimes* revive old diskettes with media level tools like
SpinRite ... but diskettes gradually lose their magnetic media (the
head touches them) so it depends on how much has been lost. Even if
the diskette appears unreadable to the OS, IME you can usually recover
most of the data from it.

George

Spinrite a name not heard in years. My copy with an eye patch dissappeared
many moons ago in a land far away.
 
J

Joerg

Spehro said:
I have an old HP logic analyzer that boots off of a floppy.

AFAIK there's also plenty of scopes from Tek and others where that's the
only way to get screen shots over to your PC. Unless you bought the now
pretty much unobtanium GPIB interface for beaucoup $$$. But mostly I see
that with production machines. One floppy slot and absolutely zilch in
terms of other interfaces. CNC gear become almost useless without being
able to feed data into it.
 
S

Spehro Pefhany

AFAIK there's also plenty of scopes from Tek and others where that's the
only way to get screen shots over to your PC. Unless you bought the now
pretty much unobtanium GPIB interface for beaucoup $$$. But mostly I see
that with production machines. One floppy slot and absolutely zilch in
terms of other interfaces. CNC gear become almost useless without being
able to feed data into it.

Many, maybe most, of them have an old-fashioned serial interface too,
for which people have cobbed together interfaces so that they can be
controlled from a central point. There are half a dozen, from several
different suppliers, in a college machine shop that I'm familiar with-
used for teaching CNC machining.
 
M

Mark Borgerson

Unfortunately, XP is still the best version of windows for many uses.
Lots of companies feel they don't have time to waste testing for
compatibility with Win 7, or finding drivers for it, or re-training
staff, or handling the support. It's better with the devil they know.
Besides, Win 7 has no advantages over XP if you are actually /using/ the
computer, rather than admiring the pretty clock on the desktop.

That's not exactly true if you're running the 64-bit version of Win 7.
It does allow you to use more memory effectively. The downside is
that it does require signed drivers---some of which weren't immediately
available. About the only application I use that needs that much memory
is Matlab.
I had to install windows (XP and Win 7) on a couple of computers
recently - it is often faster to install Windows from scratch than to
start using a typical "pre-installed" system (after it takes ages to
install windows from a hidden partition, you then have to waste more
time removing all traces of the "demo" and time-limited junk that comes
with system). While Win 7 installation is mildly improved over XP, it's
still seriously inefficient. And once you have the basic system
installed, you then have to find and install the drivers - which are
often totally absurd (I had to download a 100 MB file for an Ethernet
driver, including it's useless utilities - and it wouldn't even install
until I'd added dotnet runtimes!).

I'd like to give the originator of .net a piece of my mind----for about
as much time and memory as it has cost me!
The Windows developers really should get hold of a few Linux
distributions to see how OS installers /should/ be made - they have a
decade or so catching up to do.
Good point. I've installed Ubuntu several times---and it has always
been pretty straightforward.


Mark Borgerson
 
K

keithr

John said:
Someone forgot to tell microsoft.

The only way to load device drivers (drive interfaces, SCSI drivers
etc) when installing windows is via the drive at A:. And that's your
only option.

Short of creating a magical alternate boot install CD/DVD for every new
model of box we get. Not looking forward to it.

Thats why I keep a USB floppy drive, it gets used once in blue moon
when I upgrade hardware, but it pays for itself every time.
 
J

Joerg

Spehro said:
Many, maybe most, of them have an old-fashioned serial interface too,
for which people have cobbed together interfaces so that they can be
controlled from a central point. There are half a dozen, from several
different suppliers, in a college machine shop that I'm familiar with-
used for teaching CNC machining.

Occacionally I have been asked to take a look at a machine shop. Mainly
because it gets messy in there and they'd rather not carry disks around
and worst case get a splotch of gunk or metal chafings into a drive
(happened to me once). But usually there was only one or two of the
machines that had RS232, sometimes none.
 
M

Mr.T

larwe said:
No, you just seem to be unwilling to think about what I was saying.

And that was what exactly??? That vinyl sales have increased from next to
nothing to slightly more than nothing. So what? Compared to their sales 30
years ago many would claim they are still effectively dead.

thousands currently available.
LOL. I could say the same thing about my collection of 78rpm records.

What, that you've never seen one, or they don't exist?

SACD and audio DVD are primarily an attempt by the music industry to
get rid of CDs because CDs have no DRM.

No argument there. However I said music DVD's, not DVDA or SACD.

MrT.
 
A

Albert van der Horst

Stuart Longland wrote:
some of the [diskettes] I have at home are slowly decaying with age.

Interesting. What's decaying about them? I've got Fuji MF2HD from the
90's and they still work fine.

The media does not have high enough coercivity to retain magnetic
alignment indefinitely - given enough time it loses orientation and
your data simply fades away.
And unlike hard disks, diskette R/W heads actually touch the recording
surface and gradually wear away the media.

This doesn't explain why virtually pristine disks (written only once
and a visibly impeccable surface) have difficulties reading and
are almost impossible to reformat. I go with those saying that the
plastic in the surface deteriorates. And it seems to me that
double density, and especially single density disk are more
reliable. I managed to recover most from Osborne CP/M disks
with visibly damaged surfaces, and used very intensively.
(Remember those CP/M machines had no hard disk. Floppies
were even used for -- small -- databases. )

Groetjes Albert
 
G

GregS

George said:
Stuart Longland wrote:
some of the [diskettes] I have at home are slowly decaying with age.

Interesting. What's decaying about them? I've got Fuji MF2HD from the
90's and they still work fine.

The media does not have high enough coercivity to retain magnetic
alignment indefinitely - given enough time it loses orientation and
your data simply fades away.


Hmm, I have disks dating back to 1990 and none of them has ever lost
data or caused read errors. But some posters said that they still can
have lost writeability. No idea why.

I did always make sure to never buy disks from dubious sources but
always the good stuff, name brands.

And unlike hard disks, diskette R/W heads actually touch the recording
surface and gradually wear away the media.

Yes, and that wear is clearly visible. However, the typical disk is used
as file storage and only once in a while read back, and then only small
parts of it.

I have tried using some old 3.5's and had some pretty bad luck. I still
have people that want to read the larger floppies, and try finding
adaptors for that. Speaking of machine shops, one CF card got currupt,
and to fix that, required replacing everything.

greg
 
J

Joerg

Paul said:
Some machine shops have very old CNC equipment, last year I had an
enquiry to find a spare PDP 11/73 card for one, that MIGHT have had
a serial but I dread to think what format of media it might have had.

I had to coach someone through repair and calibration of a circuit board
test bed from the 80's. All nicely DOS-based so it worked right off the
bat :)
 
G

George Neuner

Stuart Longland wrote:
some of the [diskettes] I have at home are slowly decaying with age.

Interesting. What's decaying about them? I've got Fuji MF2HD from the
90's and they still work fine.

The media does not have high enough coercivity to retain magnetic
alignment indefinitely - given enough time it loses orientation and
your data simply fades away.
And unlike hard disks, diskette R/W heads actually touch the recording
surface and gradually wear away the media.

This doesn't explain why virtually pristine disks (written only once
and a visibly impeccable surface) have difficulties reading and
are almost impossible to reformat.

Problems with new disks are primarily head alignment issues with the
drive. Computer manufacturers, after all, try to use the lowest cost
components and there are now quite a few low(er) quality component
vendors. Although all the drives might be technically within spec,
differences in drift can make them incompatible.

Many high quality preformatted diskettes are made with an embedded
high(er) coercivity track lead (similar to hard drives). These
diskettes *can't* be reformatted (your drive doesn't have enough
power) but can only be erased ... and if head drift prevents your
drives from accurately following the lead track then you have a
problem.

IME, since about 1995 it's become common to have machines which can't
recognize factory formatted disks or to write with one machine and not
be able to read it elsewhere.

George
 
R

Rod Speed

George said:
Stuart Longland wrote:
some of the [diskettes] I have at home are slowly decaying with
age.

Interesting. What's decaying about them? I've got Fuji MF2HD from
the 90's and they still work fine.

The media does not have high enough coercivity to retain magnetic
alignment indefinitely - given enough time it loses orientation and
your data simply fades away.
And unlike hard disks, diskette R/W heads actually touch the
recording surface and gradually wear away the media.

This doesn't explain why virtually pristine disks (written only once
and a visibly impeccable surface) have difficulties reading and
are almost impossible to reformat.
Problems with new disks are primarily head alignment issues with the drive.

Nope, that is in fact a problem with old disks that
may well have been written in a different drive.
Computer manufacturers, after all, try to use the lowest cost
components and there are now quite a few low(er) quality component
vendors. Although all the drives might be technically within spec,
differences in drift can make them incompatible.

Yes, but that effect wont be seen with new disks, just with reading old ones.
 
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