Elk M1G for Rehabbed House

[[email protected]]

As is customary, my first post is a begging plea for experienced
recommendations. Please bear with my lack of knowledge and thank you
in advance for your suggestions.


My wife and I have recently purchased a row home in an 'improving' area

and are moving in in about 3 weeks. Most of the house has been gutted
and construction is about to begin so now is a good time to install a
system.


I have been looking into security panels for a few months and really
like the Elk M1G (sys4 package), but am not 100% sold on it. I would
like the ability to have a fairly extensively automated home eventually

(a/v, lights, door latches, etc). So, my first question is, would you
go with the Elk M1G?


My next question moves on to what I should install for a basic system.
We have 4 exterior doors:
one front
2 basement
1 rear


20 human sized windows, 2 'mini' windows and a skylight:
6 full sized windows (2 per floor) in front 2 with fixed half-round
panes above
2 basement windows in front
2 basement windows (alley access)
3 elevated 1st floor windows (alley access)
3 second story "inaccessible" windows, but we will eventually have a
deck (alley access)
4 windows on fire escapes (alley access)!
2 primarily inaccessible and very small (1.5'x2') windows (alley
access)


1 100 year old skylight with 4 panes of glass and easy access via
fire escape


I thought I would install a contact on each 'hole' except the 4 2nd and

3rd floor front windows. What contact should I use for these? I'd
prefer something not visible, unless the visibility really adds a lot
to deterent. Also, is there a good way of alarming the skylight? It
doesn't open and each pane is too small for human entry (plus they
would drop into the middle of the staircase). I'm not sure what to do
about motion detectors as we plan to be getting a 100+ great dane and
already have a 65 pound shepherd mix (and a cat ). One additional
consideration pertains to the front door. We have a small entry way
(3'x3') immediately inside the house with another, decorative door
inside. Should we also arm that second door? It might provide a
surprise barrier, or it might be a waste of time, money and energy.


We want to install a system that will be very effective both occupied
and vacant, but aren't in a position to invest in the most robust
system currently. I want to plan for the future but protect today, if
that makes sense.


Is there anything I have missed? Or should I say how much have I
missed? I debated a motion light in the back yard/alley, but have seen

many suggest that it is a waste of money.


I know this is a lot to ask, but if anyone can offer insight on even
one of these areas, I'd be most appreciative. Thanks for reading and I

hope to hear from you soon.


Sorry for the cross-post, I just wasn't sure if diy
got the same participants.

 

[[email protected]]

I have been looking into security panels for a few months and really like the Elk M1G (sys4 package), but am not 100% sold on it. I would like the ability to have a fairly extensively automated home eventually (a/v, lights, door latches, etc). So, my first question is, would you go with the Elk M1G?

Yes. I'm installing one in my new (to me) home, but I'm also an Elk
Products dealer. :^)

My next question moves on to what I should install for a basic system. We have [lots of windows & doors]...

The usual method is to install magnetic sensors (called "contacts") on
the exterior doors and accessible windows. These are simple switches
that remain closed as long as the magnet is nearby. When the door or
window opens the magnet moves away, the circuit opens telling the M1
Gold control panel that there's a problem.

Magnetic contacts come in many shapes and sizes to fit almost any type
of window. Better brands include Sentrol, Ademco and GRI, among
others.

What contact should I use for these?

The choice will depend upon the specific windows you are using. Most
hollow vinyl and aluminum windows have limited space to insert the
magnet so you may have to use a miniature, surface mount. Most wood or
wood core sashes can accomodate the magnet easily enough. There are
several new "rare earth" contacts which employ a very small magnet not
much bigger than a shirt collar button. These can be very useful in
tight quarters.

For most interior doors, you can use a 3/8" diameter, recessed contact
such as Sentrol's model 1275. If the door is a steel fire door, such
as the one between the house and the garage, you can use a wide gap,
surface model such as the Sentrol 1285TW. If the local fire marshal
approves, you can substitute a recessed steel door sensor such as
Sentrol's 1078C. Because you'd be making a hole in a rated fire door
you should get approval first. Most won't care but some can be a pain.

I also like to bug the roll up garage doors. Sentrol's 2202AU works
well for this application. Although it's designed to handle floor
mounting, I like to put them above the door where rakes, shovels and
other implements of destruction won't snare the wires.

The Elk M1G will allow you to program a different delay period for the
overhead door, followed by a shorter delay on the inside door to the
house. Not everyone agrees about protecting the garage door but I
believe it's a good idea to keep the bad guys outside the perimeter,
including the garage.

I'd prefer something not visible, unless the visibility really adds a lot to deterent...

There is some disagreement as to how much value visibility has. You
have to weigh the deterrent value against WAF factor*. IMO a few
well-placed window stickers will be more obvious to the thief than a
tiny magnetic sensor inside a window.

Also, is there a good way of alarming the skylight?

If your skylight is up a long "well" you can protect it with a motion
detector. There's a neat little "SPY" motion detector made by a
company called Visonic which can be placed inside the skylight well.
It's extremely small and fits in a small hole in the drywall. As long
as it's down far enough not to get direct sunlight on the detector's
surface that should work very well.

If the skylight is glass you could install a glass breakage detector in
the room. The better ones can cover a 25' radius. This is another
subject where there is debate though. Some installers hate glass break
detectors. Some use them all the time. I've installed lots of
IntelliSense (now part of Honeywell) glass breaks with pretty good
results. They can false if there's a really intense thunderstorm
directly overhead though. Also, glass break detectors are not
considered 100% secure. Changes in the room (new furnishings, heave
drapes, thick carpet, etc., can reduce their effective range.

It doesn't open and each pane is too small for human entry (plus they would drop into the middle of the staircase). I'm not sure what to do about motion detectors as we plan to be getting a 100+ great dane and already have a 65 pound shepherd mix (and a cat ).

The motion detector that I mentioned above won't be affected by the
dogs unless they can jump up into the well of the skylight. It's more
of a pinpoint protection device when used in this manner. Other than
that, with over 165 pounds of cainine running loose I would forget
about using motion detectors.

One additional consideration pertains to the front door. We have a small entry way (3'x3') immediately inside the house with another, decorative door inside. Should we also arm that second door? ...

No. Just bug the outer door and if that's your primary entry point
install a keypad in the little foyer.

We want to install a system that will be very effective both occupied and vacant, but aren't in a position to invest in the most robust system currently. I want to plan for the future but protect today, if that makes sense...

The Elk is a modular system. You can install what you need now and add
features and expansion devices as time and budget allow.

Is there anything I have missed? Or should I say how much have I missed? I debated a motion light in the back yard/alley, but have seen many suggest that it is a waste of money.

Motion lights are probably not much of a deterrent. For one thing,
most break-ins happen during the day. Also, most thieves probably
already know what they are. The benefits of a motion light are
convenience and a better "feeling" of security for the family.
Presumably there have been cases where would-be thieves have been
thwarted by a simple motion light. But I doubt they make that much
difference. Use one if you like having a light come on when you go out
there at night.

I know this is a lot to ask, but if anyone can offer insight on even one of these areas, I'd be most appreciative. Thanks for reading and I hope to hear from you soon.

No problem. One purpose of the newsgroup is to share questions,
answers and opinions about things like this. Your query is on-topic
and welcome.

BTW, I mentioned several brand name products above. Those are examples
that may work for your application. There are lots of competing brands
that are also very good. I sell these brands (and quite a few others)
online so I'm not entirely without bias.

Regards,
Robert L Bass
www.BassBurglarAlarms.com

 

[Norm Mugford]

And he is not entirely without complaints to the Better Business Bureau
Consumer Beware.......

I have been looking into security panels for a few months and really like
the Elk M1G (sys4 package), but am not 100% sold on it. I would like the
ability to have a fairly extensively automated home eventually (a/v,
lights, door latches, etc). So, my first question is, would you go with
the Elk M1G?

Yes. I'm installing one in my new (to me) home, but I'm also an Elk
Products dealer. :^)

My next question moves on to what I should install for a basic system. We
have [lots of windows & doors]...

The usual method is to install magnetic sensors (called "contacts") on
the exterior doors and accessible windows. These are simple switches
that remain closed as long as the magnet is nearby. When the door or
window opens the magnet moves away, the circuit opens telling the M1
Gold control panel that there's a problem.

Magnetic contacts come in many shapes and sizes to fit almost any type
of window. Better brands include Sentrol, Ademco and GRI, among
others.

What contact should I use for these?

The choice will depend upon the specific windows you are using. Most
hollow vinyl and aluminum windows have limited space to insert the
magnet so you may have to use a miniature, surface mount. Most wood or
wood core sashes can accomodate the magnet easily enough. There are
several new "rare earth" contacts which employ a very small magnet not
much bigger than a shirt collar button. These can be very useful in
tight quarters.

For most interior doors, you can use a 3/8" diameter, recessed contact
such as Sentrol's model 1275. If the door is a steel fire door, such
as the one between the house and the garage, you can use a wide gap,
surface model such as the Sentrol 1285TW. If the local fire marshal
approves, you can substitute a recessed steel door sensor such as
Sentrol's 1078C. Because you'd be making a hole in a rated fire door
you should get approval first. Most won't care but some can be a pain.

I also like to bug the roll up garage doors. Sentrol's 2202AU works
well for this application. Although it's designed to handle floor
mounting, I like to put them above the door where rakes, shovels and
other implements of destruction won't snare the wires.

The Elk M1G will allow you to program a different delay period for the
overhead door, followed by a shorter delay on the inside door to the
house. Not everyone agrees about protecting the garage door but I
believe it's a good idea to keep the bad guys outside the perimeter,
including the garage.

I'd prefer something not visible, unless the visibility really adds a lot
to deterent...

There is some disagreement as to how much value visibility has. You
have to weigh the deterrent value against WAF factor*. IMO a few
well-placed window stickers will be more obvious to the thief than a
tiny magnetic sensor inside a window.

Also, is there a good way of alarming the skylight?

If your skylight is up a long "well" you can protect it with a motion
detector. There's a neat little "SPY" motion detector made by a
company called Visonic which can be placed inside the skylight well.
It's extremely small and fits in a small hole in the drywall. As long
as it's down far enough not to get direct sunlight on the detector's
surface that should work very well.

If the skylight is glass you could install a glass breakage detector in
the room. The better ones can cover a 25' radius. This is another
subject where there is debate though. Some installers hate glass break
detectors. Some use them all the time. I've installed lots of
IntelliSense (now part of Honeywell) glass breaks with pretty good
results. They can false if there's a really intense thunderstorm
directly overhead though. Also, glass break detectors are not
considered 100% secure. Changes in the room (new furnishings, heave
drapes, thick carpet, etc., can reduce their effective range.

It doesn't open and each pane is too small for human entry (plus they
would drop into the middle of the staircase). I'm not sure what to do
about motion detectors as we plan to be getting a 100+ great dane and
already have a 65 pound shepherd mix (and a cat ).

The motion detector that I mentioned above won't be affected by the
dogs unless they can jump up into the well of the skylight. It's more
of a pinpoint protection device when used in this manner. Other than
that, with over 165 pounds of cainine running loose I would forget
about using motion detectors.

One additional consideration pertains to the front door. We have a small
entry way (3'x3') immediately inside the house with another, decorative
door inside. Should we also arm that second door? ...

No. Just bug the outer door and if that's your primary entry point
install a keypad in the little foyer.

We want to install a system that will be very effective both occupied and
vacant, but aren't in a position to invest in the most robust system
currently. I want to plan for the future but protect today, if that
makes sense...

The Elk is a modular system. You can install what you need now and add
features and expansion devices as time and budget allow.

Is there anything I have missed? Or should I say how much have I missed?
I debated a motion light in the back yard/alley, but have seen many
suggest that it is a waste of money.

Motion lights are probably not much of a deterrent. For one thing,
most break-ins happen during the day. Also, most thieves probably
already know what they are. The benefits of a motion light are
convenience and a better "feeling" of security for the family.
Presumably there have been cases where would-be thieves have been
thwarted by a simple motion light. But I doubt they make that much
difference. Use one if you like having a light come on when you go out
there at night.

I know this is a lot to ask, but if anyone can offer insight on even one
of these areas, I'd be most appreciative. Thanks for reading and I hope
to hear from you soon.

No problem. One purpose of the newsgroup is to share questions,
answers and opinions about things like this. Your query is on-topic
and welcome.

BTW, I mentioned several brand name products above. Those are examples
that may work for your application. There are lots of competing brands
that are also very good. I sell these brands (and quite a few others)
online so I'm not entirely without bias.

Regards,
Robert L Bass
www.BassBurglarAlarms.com

 

[Bob Worthy]

That was Robert's own question and answer session. Did you notice that he is
fantasizing that he actually installs. That little tip about the "Spy" in
the skylite well shows his lack of practical experience. It will false like
hell. The biggest thing is that he is supporting and selling a product that
isn't "UL" listed, when he recommends the ELK M1G. Not knocking the product
and it has been a work in progress, but after it was first introduced at the
ISC show in Orlando, a few years ago, you would think it would have been
approved by now. I know Wade Moose is frustrated about the product not
having the approval yet, but for some reason they can't get it done. Did you
not know this, Robert, or is it that you just don't care and say, "hey, a
sale is a sale." (More below)

And he is not entirely without complaints to the Better Business Bureau
Consumer Beware.......

So, my first question is, would you go with
Did you get a permit to install it Robert? If not, I can make sure an
electrical inspector stops by to inspect it for you, (tax records will show
us your new address) and they will make you tear it out, first for not
pulling a permit and second because it isn't an approved panel. But than
again, you probably don't care because I doubt you installed one anyway.
Stop BS'ing everyone Robert.

 

[Guest]

Mr. Bass wrote in a previous post re: UL.......

"the most respected standards writer in the nation".

Looks like you stuck your foot in your mouth again Mr. BAss.
Pushing non-UL systems are you?

Another reason for the buyer to beware.....

Norm Mugford

 

[Frank Olson]

Mr. Bass wrote in a previous post re: UL.......

"the most respected standards writer in the nation".

Looks like you stuck your foot in your mouth again Mr. BAss.
Pushing non-UL systems are you?

Another reason for the buyer to beware.....

Norm Mugford

Hey!!!! I like my Elk M1G!! It even brews coffee! You can set it for
"French Roast" or "African Blend". I've heard Robert's talking to tech
support about getting them to include a "Brazilian Medium Roast" and a
"Decaf" as well...

 

[Bob Worthy]

Wade Moose has always employeed some of the best engineers/design people in
the industry. No problem there. No knock on the panel. Just some holiday
giggles at Robert's expense. He's so easy!

 

[[email protected]]

I do appreciate the helpful information provided by everyone on the
Elk, limited as it may be. I have a suggestion, instead of jumping in
on every thread Robert Bass writes on, you may consider actually
contributing something to the forums. While I have my reservations
about buying from Bass, at least he was willing to take a minute to
post a helpful reply. You all may choose to argue that his advice is
meaningless drivel, but at least it is advice and on topic with what I
requested.

Once again, I am grateful for the contributions you have all made, but
it would be more helpful to me (and the many other threads that have
suffered the same fate) if this could remain a forum that discusses the
merits of different alarm systems rather than the merits of the people
that contribute to the forum.

Thank you all and I do hope you might find the time to offer more
input.

Have a very happy holiday season.

 

[Norm Mugford]

Hey!!!! I like my Elk M1G!! It even brews coffee! You can set it for
"French Roast" or "African Blend". I've heard Robert's talking to tech
support about getting them to include a "Brazilian Medium Roast" and a
"Decaf" as well...

But, does it have a "burger maker"??????




I choose Polesoft Lockspam to fight spam, and you?
http://www.polesoft.com/refer.html

 

[Frank Olson]

But, does it have a "burger maker"??????

No... K-Tel beat 'em to it... Remember the "paddi-stacker" ads on TV??

 

[petem]

Did you get a permit to install it Robert? If not, I can make sure an
electrical inspector stops by to inspect it for you, (tax records will
show
us your new address) and they will make you tear it out, first for not
pulling a permit and second because it isn't an approved panel. But than
again, you probably don't care because I doubt you installed one anyway.
Stop BS'ing everyone Robert.

Bob do it please, pretty please,give us all here a good Christmas gift....

Or if you cant make it by the 25,our new year would start on a pretty good
mood if you do it after the 1st..

Anyway,in the mean time I just wish you a merry Christmas,and an happy new
year

 

[Bob Worthy]

I do appreciate the helpful information provided by everyone on the
Elk, limited as it may be.

The panel doesn't have that much exposure in the market place as of yet.
Automation systems are the big rage but not everyone is jumping in. I think
there is a "wait and see" line of thinking going on.

I have a suggestion, instead of jumping in

on every thread Robert Bass writes on, you may consider actually
contributing something to the forums.

Big difference between contributing to the forum, which most do with their
own strengths, and keeping RLB's comments in line with where he really
stands in the industry. Alot of what goes on is that some feel a need to
warn newbies about RLB's past and his business ethics. Others have an on
going problem with his off line antics, which sound rather vicious, if true.
Others have a problem with his holier-than-thou attitude about **every**
subject matter. Some have problems with his perpetual need to disagree or
pick apart every other contribution other than his own. And then there are
some that don't give a rat's bASS about him and do it for kicks and giggles.

While I have my reservations
about buying from Bass,

Is it because of what you may have learned here about his past and business
ethics?

at least he was willing to take a minute to

post a helpful reply.

And promote his web business, which isn't the purpose of this NG

You all may choose to argue that his advice is

meaningless drivel,

That isn't true. When he is responding with worthwhile information it is
usually on target. It is just when he makes it sound like it is his own or
from his personal experience, that people get upset because some know
better.

Once again, I am grateful for the contributions you have all made, but
it would be more helpful to me (and the many other threads that have
suffered the same fate) if this could remain a forum that discusses the
merits of different alarm systems rather than the merits of the people
that contribute to the forum.

That won't happen as long as there is disruption stemming from the actions
of some of the participants. That is what happens in an open forum.

Thank you all and I do hope you might find the time to offer more
input.

And good luck with your project. Don't go away because of the above. You'll
find spotted help here. Just pick and choose what is helpful and what is
playground joisting.

Have a very happy holiday season.

Stay safe!

 

[Mark Leuck]

Wade Moose has always employeed some of the best engineers/design people in
the industry.

Couldn't tell by looking at the design of a Z1100...

(running for cover)

 

[Bob Worthy]

Couldn't tell by looking at the design of a Z1100...

(running for cover)

It was a good panel for its day and there are many many still out there.
We're talking the mid 80's here. It was one of the first to go into a new
generation of alarm panels. Sure, times have changed and the industry has
moved on, but it was a work horse panel. Nothing really wrong with it other
than personal preferences.

 

[alarman]

It was a good panel for its day and there are many many still out there.
We're talking the mid 80's here. It was one of the first to go into a new
generation of alarm panels. Sure, times have changed and the industry has
moved on, but it was a work horse panel. Nothing really wrong with it other
than personal preferences.

It was a GREAT panel: fully programmable zones, 2 entry delay timers, user
changeable codes, keypad programmable, a mess of onboard outputs, (and no
need to program them, just connect the appropriate wire from the J-16
connector to an onboard relay), plenty of power (900ma), a large sturdy can,
a power-down switch, and a motherboard that unplugs from the can. I thought
that feature would come in real handy, but it turns out I had to replace
only 3 or 4 boards, and I put a boatload (pun intended for Mark) of them in.
I still have a bunch of them out there, sending me money regularly.

A couple of drawbacks were that end users seem to have a hell of a time
figuring out the l.e.d. keypads, and while communicating, the panel will no
readily accept keypad entries.
js

 

[Bob Worthy]

It was a GREAT panel: fully programmable zones, 2 entry delay timers, user
changeable codes, keypad programmable, a mess of onboard outputs, (and no
need to program them, just connect the appropriate wire from the J-16
connector to an onboard relay), plenty of power (900ma), a large sturdy can,
a power-down switch, and a motherboard that unplugs from the can. I thought
that feature would come in real handy, but it turns out I had to replace
only 3 or 4 boards, and I put a boatload (pun intended for Mark) of them in.
I still have a bunch of them out there, sending me money regularly.

Yep, and again, that panel was one of the new ones introducing a new
generation of alarm panel technology.

A couple of drawbacks were that end users seem to have a hell of a time
figuring out the l.e.d. keypads,

If it isn't a key, the end user has a hard time figuring out any
manufactures keypad. The whole *door open, or door closed* thing did get
them confused though. I still have a crap load of old boards and keypads
stuffed somewhere. I need to go through them and see what is good and/or
bad. Maybe Jim R. would be interested in them.

 

[Mark Leuck]

It was a GREAT panel: fully programmable zones, 2 entry delay timers, user
changeable codes, keypad programmable, a mess of onboard outputs, (and no
need to program them, just connect the appropriate wire from the J-16
connector to an onboard relay), plenty of power (900ma), a large sturdy can,
a power-down switch, and a motherboard that unplugs from the can. I thought
that feature would come in real handy, but it turns out I had to replace
only 3 or 4 boards, and I put a boatload (pun intended for Mark) of them in.
I still have a bunch of them out there, sending me money regularly.

A couple of drawbacks were that end users seem to have a hell of a time
figuring out the l.e.d. keypads, and while communicating, the panel will no
readily accept keypad entries.
js

I always told them the * key is their friend, the problem with keypad
entries while communicating seems to be because the keypad is also beeping
and pressing *stops it enough to easily turn the system off

The biggest drawback to me is need to press 1 then the code to turn it on
and off which always confuses the hell out of the customers when they change
codes, and the non-ability to have a 0 in any part of the code except the
beginning. Biggest drawback of course is that its a Moose panel

 

[Bob Worthy]

Biggest drawback of course is that its a Moose panel

Wow, did a moose **Shmit** in your yard at one time or another?

 

[alarman]

Biggest drawback of course is that its a Moose panel

Wow, did a moose **Shmit** in your yard at one time or another?

He's just mad because the can was too big to fit in the trunk of his
Chevette.
js

 

[Bob Worthy]

He's just mad because the can was too big to fit in the trunk of his
Chevette.
js

That is what luggage racks and bungy's are for! Am I getting into something
I don't know about here?