Design/Sim/PCB Layout Package for Student Electronics Lab

[Chris Maryan]

I'm putting together a student electronics lab for elec eng and comp eng
students where they can get access to fairly nice equipment for their hobby
and thesis projects. Part of that is giving them access to a schematic
capture/simulation/PCB layout solution. I'm torn on the choice, mostly
because I have little experience with this software and am looking for
guidance from this group. Thus far my options are:
- OrCad: seems to be industry standard, but their educational licensing
terms are a little unfriendly to what we are trying to do.
- Protel: Another big name, don't know too much about it though.
- Proteus: Mostly because it can incorporate PIC microcontrollers into its
mixed signal simulation. PICs are really popular with the students here.
- Any other suggeestions?

The main goal here is to give a powerful tool (we want to offer more than
the cheap/free simulators that some students use at home), that will be
recognized by industry (i.e. they can eventually put this on their resumes)
and that has a relatively fast learning curve for basic design and
simulation (not too dauning for beginners). Most of the designs will be slow
(40MHz or less), mixed signal, low voltage (30V at most) and destined for
small single or double sided boards. Although some have expressed a desire
to try high speed (100MHz+), even microwave and multi layer designs.

Any suggestions? Offers of sponsorship? Crazy rantings?

Many thanks,

Chris

 

[Joerg]

Hi Chris,

There is Eagle from www.cadsoft.de which is nice and not expensive. Schematic
entry plus layout. Could even be free for universities but that I don't know.
However, it is not industry standard and no sim. But my take is that students
should also learn how to interweave programs, iow how to create an output file
that will then run on Berkeley SPICE or something else. In biz they'll face
those challenges a lot.

As far as I can see here in the west OrCAD is pretty much standard. You'd have
to negotiate with the vendor about deals. On the market it costs quite a bit
more than Eagle.

Regards, Joerg.

 

[Leon Heller]

I'm putting together a student electronics lab for elec eng and comp eng
students where they can get access to fairly nice equipment for their hobby
and thesis projects. Part of that is giving them access to a schematic
capture/simulation/PCB layout solution. I'm torn on the choice, mostly
because I have little experience with this software and am looking for
guidance from this group. Thus far my options are:
- OrCad: seems to be industry standard, but their educational licensing
terms are a little unfriendly to what we are trying to do.
- Protel: Another big name, don't know too much about it though.
- Proteus: Mostly because it can incorporate PIC microcontrollers into its
mixed signal simulation. PICs are really popular with the students here.
- Any other suggeestions?

The main goal here is to give a powerful tool (we want to offer more than
the cheap/free simulators that some students use at home), that will be
recognized by industry (i.e. they can eventually put this on their resumes)
and that has a relatively fast learning curve for basic design and
simulation (not too dauning for beginners). Most of the designs will be slow
(40MHz or less), mixed signal, low voltage (30V at most) and destined for
small single or double sided boards. Although some have expressed a desire
to try high speed (100MHz+), even microwave and multi layer designs.

Any suggestions? Offers of sponsorship? Crazy rantings?

EasyPC: http://www.numberone.com

Pulsonix: http://www.pulsonix.com

Leon

 

[Bill Sloman]

Hi Chris,

There is Eagle from www.cadsoft.de which is nice and not expensive. Schematic
entry plus layout. Could even be free for universities but that I don't know.
However, it is not industry standard and no sim. But my take is that students
should also learn how to interweave programs, iow how to create an output file
that will then run on Berkeley SPICE or something else. In biz they'll face
those challenges a lot.

As far as I can see here in the west OrCAD is pretty much standard. You'd
have to negotiate with the vendor about deals. On the market it costs quite > a bit more than Eagle.

Orcad used to offer a huge educational discount - which is why
Nijmegen University used it.

When I lasted lurked on sci.electronics.cad, Protel seemed to be more
popular - not least because it then sold for half the price of Orcad.

For student training, the gEDA suite for Linux has to be interesting -
not only is it free (as in you don't have to pay for it) but the
source code is available over the web, and the data files use ASCI
characters, so you can see exactly what they contain and edit them by
hand.

http://www.geda.seul.org/

 

[Andrew Sterian]

I'm putting together a student electronics lab for elec eng and comp eng
students where they can get access to fairly nice equipment for their hobby
and thesis projects. Part of that is giving them access to a schematic
capture/simulation/PCB layout solution. I'm torn on the choice, mostly
because I have little experience with this software and am looking for
guidance from this group.
- Any other suggeestions?

Eagle for schematic capture and PCB layout. It's quite enough for
single-sided/double-sided boards of medium complexity and low speed.

LTSpice (SwitcherCAD) for analog simulation.

FPGA tools like Xilinx WebPack or Altera Quartus for digital
simulation (these are meant to simulate FPGA's/CPLD's but can also be
used as digital logic simulators as they have built-in macromodels of
standard 74XX chips). Microcontroller-based projects will most likely
make more use of the microcontroller simulator than a general digital
simulator (e.g., Microchip's MPLAB, Atmel's AVRStudio).

The main goal here is to give a powerful tool (we want to offer more than
the cheap/free simulators that some students use at home), that will be
recognized by industry (i.e. they can eventually put this on their resumes)
and that has a relatively fast learning curve for basic design and
simulation (not too dauning for beginners).

All of your above goals are good except for the "recognized by
industry" one. I hope you're not chasing the toolset whims of industry
but are instead focusing on a solid education of concepts that
transcend this year's choice of favorite tools.

All of the tools I listed above have one important thing in common:
they are FREE for educational use. This is more important to education
than just about anything else (other than how much effort you put into
your course) because:

* Free tools means students can install them on their home
PC's/laptops
* This means you do not have to limit students to working on their
projects in laboratories that are constrained by availability or
proximity to student's homes
* This means you can assign projects that are challenging and very
mature. Students will learn a lot more with these free tools than they
will with expensive "industry standard" tools that they can only work
with in a particular lab on campus.

The above has been my experience with running a Digital Design course.
See http://claymore.engineer.gvsu.edu/~steriana/326/hof.htm for what
can be accomplished with the above tools. Our students have no trouble
finding jobs and learning a new toolset after graduation.

Any suggestions? Offers of sponsorship? Crazy rantings?

Crazy ranting. Thanks for listening.

 

[JeffM]

I'm putting together a student electronics lab

for elec eng and comp eng students
...for their hobby and thesis projects.
...access to a schematic capture/simulation/PCB layout solution.
Chris Maryan

There was a thread recently,
http://groups.google.com/groups?&th...hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&filter=0
the upshot of which was *you're not training draftsmen*.
Andrew has restated a strong point from it
when he speaks of not "chasing the toolset whims of industry
but...instead focusing on a solid education of concepts".

The descriptions of Cadsoft EAGLE in the current metathread are good.
I do notice that no one has mentioned that
the freeware (demo) version is limited to
80mm x 100mm boards and one (non-tabbed) sheet on schematics.
The demo licence is in keeping with a student's needs.

Sloman's recommendation of Linux-based gEDA / PCB is also apt.
It is not only open source software (free--gratis and libre),
it is a fully-functional package (not crippleware).
Students would love that (as would your funding committee, I think).
http://www.google.com/search?&q=gEDA+PCB+Circuit-Board
(Notice that the 1st listing is MIT.)

The added advantage of no-cost software is that
each student can have it on *his own computer*
and work on HIS schedule, not having to wait in line for a terminal.
If the lab computers have to support other Electronics Software,
the lines will be even longer
(think: load balancing via PERSONAL computers).
IMO, this outweighs a lot of other considerations
in the selection process.

 

[John Jardine]

Joerg <[email protected]> wrote in message

When I lasted lurked on sci.electronics.cad, Protel seemed to be more
popular - not least because it then sold for half the price of Orcad.

There's a freely available, very effective, 'crack' for Protel. Explains why
lots of people put up with this rubbish software which would otherwise cost
£5000 to buy.

 

[Stephan Rose]

There was a thread recently,
http://groups.google.com/groups?&th...hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&safe=off&filter=0
the upshot of which was *you're not training draftsmen*.
Andrew has restated a strong point from it
when he speaks of not "chasing the toolset whims of industry
but...instead focusing on a solid education of concepts".

The descriptions of Cadsoft EAGLE in the current metathread are good.
I do notice that no one has mentioned that
the freeware (demo) version is limited to
80mm x 100mm boards and one (non-tabbed) sheet on schematics.
The demo licence is in keeping with a student's needs.

Sloman's recommendation of Linux-based gEDA / PCB is also apt.
It is not only open source software (free--gratis and libre),
it is a fully-functional package (not crippleware).
Students would love that (as would your funding committee, I think).
http://www.google.com/search?&q=gEDA+PCB+Circuit-Board
(Notice that the 1st listing is MIT.)

The added advantage of no-cost software is that
each student can have it on *his own computer*
and work on HIS schedule, not having to wait in line for a terminal.
If the lab computers have to support other Electronics Software,
the lines will be even longer
(think: load balancing via PERSONAL computers).
IMO, this outweighs a lot of other considerations
in the selection process.

One comment about that gEDA package...that's linux, isn't it?

Do you really think the average student runs linux on their personal
computer at home? I mean..lets really be honest here....I personally
have my doubts...

Heck these days you can't even assume that CS programming majors have
a computer (believe it or not...I've seen it...) Now we're assuming
the average student is running linux?

Stephan

 

[Chuck Harris]

One comment about that gEDA package...that's linux, isn't it?

Do you really think the average student runs linux on their personal
computer at home? I mean..lets really be honest here....I personally
have my doubts...

Heck these days you can't even assume that CS programming majors have
a computer (believe it or not...I've seen it...) Now we're assuming
the average student is running linux?

Stephan

Hi Stephan,

That problem is easily taken care of. Put your gEDA package on a
Knoppix CDROM distribution. Then all they have to do is boot the
CDROM, and they are running a much better operating system, and a
nice EDA package too.

The Knoppix system is designed to coexist with a winblows file system,
and will boot on 99% of the PC's out there... That includes 386's up.

Education is about becoming a better person. Why not help your
students become better computer citizens as well? There really is
no good reason for an educational institution to be running MS
software. Booted up under Knoppix, with one of the 'doze like
gui's on top of gnome, and they won't even know that they aren't
running 'doze... well, except for the lack of crashes, and the
improved speed.

-Chuck Harris

 

[Stephan Rose]

Hi Stephan,

That problem is easily taken care of. Put your gEDA package on a
Knoppix CDROM distribution. Then all they have to do is boot the
CDROM, and they are running a much better operating system, and a
nice EDA package too.

The Knoppix system is designed to coexist with a winblows file system,
and will boot on 99% of the PC's out there... That includes 386's up.

Education is about becoming a better person. Why not help your
students become better computer citizens as well? There really is
no good reason for an educational institution to be running MS
software. Booted up under Knoppix, with one of the 'doze like
gui's on top of gnome, and they won't even know that they aren't
running 'doze... well, except for the lack of crashes, and the
improved speed.

I don't work for any educational institution but I have a friend who
does so that's how I know lol.

However...I personally can run Windows XP for days, weeks, without a
single reboot....no crashes, no problems. Ever. Only time my machine
ever is rebooted is if I personally need to for some reason. Like
Install an application or something that wants a reboot....

Generally...if you have stability issues...and are running at least
win2k or above it's a hardware problem...

Win9x or below..well..those aren't even supported by MS anymore....so
anyone using those...you get what you pay for.

However that all said....That knoppix thing though does sound like a
very good solution to that problem.

Stephan

 

[Joerg]

Jeff, Linux based software is a problem when you suggest that every student should have it on their PC. Reason is that almost all those PCs run Windows when they buy them and most students would not want to reload another op system. Plus it might
toast the warranty.

Cadsoft/Eagle freeware is limited to I believe single page schematics. But it does come with layout capability. That ought to be enough for most projects, such as doing a uC based design. After all, we want our students to learn the trade but not
be bogged down in months of circuit drawing. There are also nice usenet support groups in several languages and some of the vendor's engineers seem to participate in those.

Regards, Joerg.

 

[Tim Auton]

Jeff, Linux based software is a problem when you suggest that every student should have it on their PC. Reason is that almost all those PCs run Windows when they buy them and most students would not want to reload another op system. Plus it might
toast the warranty.

Loading a new OS toasting the warranty? That's a new one on me.

Anyone know how the Linux-based software fares under cygwin?


Tim

 

[Chuck Harris]

Jeff, Linux based software is a problem when you suggest that every
student should have it on their PC. Reason is that almost all those
PCs run Windows when they buy them and most students would not want
to reload another op system. Plus it might toast the warranty.

Cadsoft/Eagle freeware is limited to I believe single page
schematics. But it does come with layout capability. That ought to be
enough for most projects, such as doing a uC based design. After all,
we want our students to learn the trade but not be bogged down in
months of circuit drawing. There are also nice usenet support groups
in several languages and some of the vendor's engineers seem to
participate in those.

Regards, Joerg.

If you run the utilities under Knoppix's distribution of linux, you will
simply boot off of a CDROM, and use the normal 'doze file system. No
change of operating system or other modification is required.

-Chuck Harris

 

[Kevin Aylward]

Hi Stephan,

That problem is easily taken care of. Put your gEDA package on a
Knoppix CDROM distribution. Then all they have to do is boot the
CDROM, and they are running a much better operating system, and a
nice EDA package too.

The Knoppix system is designed to coexist with a winblows file system,
and will boot on 99% of the PC's out there... That includes 386's up.

Education is about becoming a better person. Why not help your
students become better computer citizens as well? There really is
no good reason for an educational institution to be running MS
software.

Complete nonsense. You don't live in this real world do you.


Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[Ales Hvezda]

[snip]

One comment about that gEDA package...that's linux, isn't it?

Yes, gEDA/gaf runs on Unix and Unix like systems (including GNU/Linux,
NetBSD, FreeBSD, Solaris, Irix, and others). However it also runs on
Mac OSX (which is Unix based anyways) and Windows (98/NT/2K/XP).
The Windows port uses the native port of GTK+2 and is a native Win32
application (using mingw not cygwin). There are a couple older Windows
releases on the gEDA site and I'm in the process of working on a new
Windows release. No promises of when it'll be ready though.

-Ales

 

[Chuck Harris]

Chuck Harris wrote:


Complete nonsense. You don't live in this real world do you.

If mean the "real world" where Super Spice is a highly desired,
and sought after commodity? No, I don't.

-Chuck Harris

 

[Kevin Aylward]

If mean the "real world" where Super Spice is a highly desired,
and sought after commodity? No, I don't.

No, the real world is 400+ Million Windows users. Your claim of "no
reason to use windows" is simple ludicrous. Overwhelmingly, programs are
written for Windows. It is the platform of choice for the consumer. This
is not debatable. Its the way it is, no matter how much you wish things
to be different. Sure, I would like to exist for ever, but it aint
goanna happen.


Kevin Aylward
[email protected]
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[Charles Edmondson]

I'm putting together a student electronics lab for elec eng and comp eng
students where they can get access to fairly nice equipment for their hobby
and thesis projects. Part of that is giving them access to a schematic
capture/simulation/PCB layout solution. I'm torn on the choice, mostly
because I have little experience with this software and am looking for
guidance from this group. Thus far my options are:
- OrCad: seems to be industry standard, but their educational licensing
terms are a little unfriendly to what we are trying to do.
- Protel: Another big name, don't know too much about it though.
- Proteus: Mostly because it can incorporate PIC microcontrollers into its
mixed signal simulation. PICs are really popular with the students here.
- Any other suggeestions?

The main goal here is to give a powerful tool (we want to offer more than
the cheap/free simulators that some students use at home), that will be
recognized by industry (i.e. they can eventually put this on their resumes)
and that has a relatively fast learning curve for basic design and
simulation (not too dauning for beginners). Most of the designs will be slow
(40MHz or less), mixed signal, low voltage (30V at most) and destined for
small single or double sided boards. Although some have expressed a desire
to try high speed (100MHz+), even microwave and multi layer designs.

Any suggestions? Offers of sponsorship? Crazy rantings?

Many thanks,

Chris

Hi Chris,
If you go to Cadence, you can get the Orcad tools, as well as a lot more
expensive/powerful tools at University discounts. There are a couple
of gotchas, as you noted.

If you just want to run Orcad tools, then go to EMA-EDA. They are the
VARS for north america, and get give you the deals that you would need.

Personally, I would probably go with Orcad, just for the reason that
Capture/PSpice is more likely to be used (or at least recognized) by
industry when they go to get a job...

 

[Chuck Harris]

No, the real world is 400+ Million Windows users. Your claim of "no
reason to use windows" is simple ludicrous. Overwhelmingly, programs are
written for Windows. It is the platform of choice for the consumer. This
is not debatable. Its the way it is, no matter how much you wish things
to be different. Sure, I would like to exist for ever, but it aint
goanna happen.

We're not talking about consumers here. Consumers consume electronics,
they don't design it, or learn about it... not anymore. Today, if you
know anything at all about how electronic devices work, you are labeled
a geek, and shuffled off to a table near the restrooms.

All of the significant EDA packages have *nix versions.

-Chuck Harris

 

[R.Lewis]

We're not talking about consumers here. Consumers consume electronics,
they don't design it, or learn about it... not anymore. Today, if you
know anything at all about how electronic devices work, you are labeled
a geek, and shuffled off to a table near the restrooms.

All of the significant EDA packages have *nix versions.

If you believe that 'all of the significant EDA packages have *nix versions'
you either have a very limited experience and knowledge of such packages or
a unique understanding of the word significant.