Design problem - need bright flash of light for pistol game...

[John Robertson]

Hi Folks,

I'm fixing up an old light beam activated rifle gallery and want to
convert some IR Laser diode Colt-45 style pistols to a white light LED
or possibly tiny photo-flash tube.

The targets all work on visible light and use CDS cells (are these
being banned?) as the sensors.

What I have been toying with is using a 60,000LCD(?) white LED as the
light source but I'm having trouble focusing the light so that it is no
larger than about 6 - 8 inches in diameter at twenty feet. I'm not an
expert on using lenses but the flash tube version of these use a metal
shield with a small hole - I suspect to act as a point source of light
- then the lens is about six inches away. This produces a nice bright
flash at the target distance.

My problem is I can't FIT a flash tube in the barrel of the pistol! Ths
smallest flash tubes I can find are used in disposible cameras but do
not work well as there is not much light coming out the ends - the
elements are in the way. Can't bend them into a "U" shape as they would
simply collapse once heated enough to soften the glass.

The smallest u-shaped strobe tubes I can find are just over 1/2 inch
wide and the barrel is only 1/2 in internal diameter - won't fit!

So, I'm thinking I need to find out a couple of things - first; can a
high intensity LED but over driven, repeatedly, on a very short duty
cycle? And second; how the heck do you focus the bugger to something
resembling a small - but intense - circle of light at twenty feet (6
meters)?

Ideas?

Thanks,

John :-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech enquires to the newsgroup) John's
Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they
just flip out."

 

[James Sweet]

Hi Folks,

I'm fixing up an old light beam activated rifle gallery and want to
convert some IR Laser diode Colt-45 style pistols to a white light LED or
possibly tiny photo-flash tube.

The targets all work on visible light and use CDS cells (are these being
banned?) as the sensors.

What I have been toying with is using a 60,000LCD(?) white LED as the
light source but I'm having trouble focusing the light so that it is no
larger than about 6 - 8 inches in diameter at twenty feet. I'm not an
expert on using lenses but the flash tube version of these use a metal
shield with a small hole - I suspect to act as a point source of light -
then the lens is about six inches away. This produces a nice bright flash
at the target distance.

My problem is I can't FIT a flash tube in the barrel of the pistol! Ths
smallest flash tubes I can find are used in disposible cameras but do not
work well as there is not much light coming out the ends - the elements
are in the way. Can't bend them into a "U" shape as they would simply
collapse once heated enough to soften the glass.

The smallest u-shaped strobe tubes I can find are just over 1/2 inch wide
and the barrel is only 1/2 in internal diameter - won't fit!

So, I'm thinking I need to find out a couple of things - first; can a high
intensity LED but over driven, repeatedly, on a very short duty cycle? And
second; how the heck do you focus the bugger to something resembling a
small - but intense - circle of light at twenty feet (6 meters)?

Ideas?

Thanks,

John :-#)#
--

What's wrong with the original setup?

Does the light have to be white? If not then how about a laser diode?
Another option would be to use a white LED to make a visible flash, but have
an IR source be the actual trigger.

CdS cells are still widely used, mostly for lighting control though, they're
a bit slow for other things.

 

[John Robertson]

What's wrong with the original setup?

Does the light have to be white? If not then how about a laser diode?
Another option would be to use a white LED to make a visible flash, but have
an IR source be the actual trigger.

CdS cells are still widely used, mostly for lighting control though, they're
a bit slow for other things.

The IR laser does not set off the CdS cell. They need a longer flash
(or shorter frequency of light) than the laser provides, plus the laser
is way too precise for my customers. This is an amusement gallery and
they do have to be able to hit the targets on average. So the beam is
around 4 - 6 inches across at twenty feet.

The reason I'm trying this is simple, I'm cheap. The new photoflash
pistols (look like toys) are almost $400US and I have ten of the Colt
style laser pistols sitting idle that look way cooler... but they do
not work with the CdS cells...

I have just found some info on Luxeon LEDs and some lens systems they
work with that gets me down to 9 degrees of dispersion... getting
closer!

John :-#)#
--
(Please post followups or tech enquires to the newsgroup) John's
Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they
just flip out."

 

[whit3rd]

Hi Folks,

I'm fixing up an old light beam activated rifle gallery and want to
convert some IR Laser diode Colt-45 style pistols

The targets all work on visible light and use CDS cells

There's three tricks used to make light receivers that don't get
fooled. Filters (only allow IR in, and visible light doesn't cause
a false trigger), modulation (TV remotes all modulate at 40 kHz,
and the receiver is tuned for that modulation), and fast-rise-time
triggering (common in slave strobes for photography).

It sounds like you have the fast-rise-time triggering scheme.
CdS can turn ON faster than it turns OFF, so that fits the
description.
If the original sources were really laser diodes, it's unlikely
visible LEDs will work as well (you'll never get as high intensity
with lenses). If, on the other hand, they were pulsed IR LEDs,
like in laser-tag gizmos, you have a pretty good shot. In addition
to LEDs, you can consider wink-light technology; a plain incandescent
lamp can take nearly double the rated current, run VERY bright,
if you limit it to a couple of milliseconds.

It's possible your CdS cells are tuned for the wavelength of the
IR original source; if you were willing to replace 'em with something
else, it could ease the visible-light brightness requirement.
My physics handbook shows CL-402 material best at 5000 Angstroms
(yellow) and CL-404 material best at 7000 Angstroms (deep red).
Alas, CdS is out of favor, you might find Clairex has few standard
formulations currently commercially available.

 

[Sam Goldwasser]

Hi Folks,

I'm fixing up an old light beam activated rifle gallery and want to
convert some IR Laser diode Colt-45 style pistols to a white light LED
or possibly tiny photo-flash tube.

The targets all work on visible light and use CDS cells (are these
being banned?) as the sensors.

What I have been toying with is using a 60,000LCD(?) white LED as the
light source but I'm having trouble focusing the light so that it is no
larger than about 6 - 8 inches in diameter at twenty feet. I'm not an
expert on using lenses but the flash tube version of these use a metal
shield with a small hole - I suspect to act as a point source of light
- then the lens is about six inches away. This produces a nice bright
flash at the target distance.

My problem is I can't FIT a flash tube in the barrel of the pistol! Ths
smallest flash tubes I can find are used in disposible cameras but do
not work well as there is not much light coming out the ends - the
elements are in the way. Can't bend them into a "U" shape as they would
simply collapse once heated enough to soften the glass.

The smallest u-shaped strobe tubes I can find are just over 1/2 inch
wide and the barrel is only 1/2 in internal diameter - won't fit!

So, I'm thinking I need to find out a couple of things - first; can a
high intensity LED but over driven, repeatedly, on a very short duty
cycle? And second; how the heck do you focus the bugger to something
resembling a small - but intense - circle of light at twenty feet (6
meters)?

Keep in mind that laser diodes have the nice ability to be collimated
quite well with a small lens.

And flashlamps have the nice ability to produce a high peak light output.

LEDs have neither.

Why do you want to change it?

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
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Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
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[mc]

CdS peaks at about the same wavelength at human vision. You are correct in
thinking it doesn't see infrared. Silicon sees infrared very well.

 

[John Robertson]

Keep in mind that laser diodes have the nice ability to be collimated
quite well with a small lens.

And flashlamps have the nice ability to produce a high peak light output.

LEDs have neither.

Why do you want to change it?

I have been unable to find a small enough flashlamp to fit in the
barrel, light bulbs are fragile (filament), and lasers - well I'd have
to replace ALL the targets with new optos (there are almost 100
targets) and that would take a lot of time!

White LEDs appear to be almost bright enough if using the lens systems
such as provided by L2Optics etc., these focus down to 9 degrees of
dispersion and this could be further collumated with a small lens -
perhaps producing enough light to trigger the cells reliably. Plus the
LEDs have a high output when used in pulse mode - which is what these
guns do - roughly 1msec light pulse.

I have found a smaller Xenon "U" flash tube that might fit in the gun
if I hollow out the bullet chamber - that is my next step. It is
simpler than using the LED etc, as the system is already set up to fire
photo flash tubes, 300VDC plus 4KV trigger pulse for the rifles.

The laser is ideal, but not going to set off the targets as they
currently are (CdS cells).

John :-#)#

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://www.repairfaq.org/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name AND either lasers or electronics is included in the
subject line. Or, you can contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

--
(Please post followups or tech enquires to the newsgroup) John's
Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they
just flip out."

 

[g]

I have been unable to find a small enough flashlamp to fit in the
barrel, light bulbs are fragile (filament), and lasers - well I'd have
to replace ALL the targets with new optos (there are almost 100
targets) and that would take a lot of time!

White LEDs appear to be almost bright enough if using the lens systems
such as provided by L2Optics etc., these focus down to 9 degrees of
dispersion and this could be further collumated with a small lens -
perhaps producing enough light to trigger the cells reliably. Plus the
LEDs have a high output when used in pulse mode - which is what these
guns do - roughly 1msec light pulse.

I have found a smaller Xenon "U" flash tube that might fit in the gun
if I hollow out the bullet chamber - that is my next step. It is
simpler than using the LED etc, as the system is already set up to fire
photo flash tubes, 300VDC plus 4KV trigger pulse for the rifles.

The laser is ideal, but not going to set off the targets as they
currently are (CdS cells).

John :-#)#





--
(Please post followups or tech enquires to the newsgroup) John's
Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they
just flip out."

Have you tried just a pinhole with a bright LED?

Suddenly my Google is not Firefox compatible with its visited links
not changing color. They got to stop fooling around.

greg

 

[John Robertson]

Suddenly my Google is not Firefox compatible with its visited links
not changing color. They got to stop fooling around.

greg

Yes, not bright enough so far... need to use a lens to capture as much
of the LED light as possible so the result has a chance of being bright
enough to set off the CdS cell at twenty or so feet distance operated
in the shade...

--
(Please post followups or tech enquires to the newsgroup) John's
Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call
(604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games)
www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they
just flip out."

 

[mike]

Hi Folks,

I'm fixing up an old light beam activated rifle gallery and want to
convert some IR Laser diode Colt-45 style pistols to a white light LED
or possibly tiny photo-flash tube.

The targets all work on visible light and use CDS cells (are these being
banned?) as the sensors.

What I have been toying with is using a 60,000LCD(?) white LED as the
light source but I'm having trouble focusing the light so that it is no
larger than about 6 - 8 inches in diameter at twenty feet. I'm not an
expert on using lenses but the flash tube version of these use a metal
shield with a small hole - I suspect to act as a point source of light -
then the lens is about six inches away. This produces a nice bright
flash at the target distance.

My problem is I can't FIT a flash tube in the barrel of the pistol! Ths
smallest flash tubes I can find are used in disposible cameras but do
not work well as there is not much light coming out the ends - the
elements are in the way. Can't bend them into a "U" shape as they would
simply collapse once heated enough to soften the glass.

The smallest u-shaped strobe tubes I can find are just over 1/2 inch
wide and the barrel is only 1/2 in internal diameter - won't fit!

So, I'm thinking I need to find out a couple of things - first; can a
high intensity LED but over driven, repeatedly, on a very short duty
cycle? And second; how the heck do you focus the bugger to something
resembling a small - but intense - circle of light at twenty feet (6
meters)?

Ideas?

Thanks,

John :-#)#

back in the old days, some arcade games used incandescent lamps.
They discharged a cap across the filament. You can geta LOT of
light that way. Life is shortened, obviously, and may not be
good enough for a commercial arcade, but worth an experiment.
mike

 

[ABLE_1]

John,

This may be a little bit hokey but for experiment purposes get a cheap set
binoculars. Aim you light source thru one of the lens. See what kind of
spot you get at your 20'. If you are lucky enough and it is satisfactory
disassemble and see what kind of lenses are being used which may point you
in good direction. BTW try the light from both sides of the binoculars.
Just a thought and may prove helpful.

Good luck.

 

[Arfa Daily]

I have been unable to find a small enough flashlamp to fit in the barrel,
light bulbs are fragile (filament), and lasers - well I'd have to replace
ALL the targets with new optos (there are almost 100 targets) and that
would take a lot of time!

White LEDs appear to be almost bright enough if using the lens systems
such as provided by L2Optics etc., these focus down to 9 degrees of
dispersion and this could be further collumated with a small lens -
perhaps producing enough light to trigger the cells reliably. Plus the
LEDs have a high output when used in pulse mode - which is what these guns
do - roughly 1msec light pulse.

I have found a smaller Xenon "U" flash tube that might fit in the gun if I
hollow out the bullet chamber - that is my next step. It is simpler than
using the LED etc, as the system is already set up to fire photo flash
tubes, 300VDC plus 4KV trigger pulse for the rifles.

The laser is ideal, but not going to set off the targets as they currently
are (CdS cells).

John :-#)#

I know it's potentially a lot of work to replace the sensors, but you might
be interested in some new devices from Avago that one of my suppliers sent
me an e-flyer about today. Says that they have a similar spectral response
to the human eye, so would match the CdS cells currently in there pretty
well, but may well be enough more sensitive to allow you to use a less
intense light source such as a superbright LED. Worth a look.

http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/pr...=NLC-Leadingedge&SKUS=1339013,1339014,9613854

Arfa

 

[m kinsler]

I know it's potentially a lot of work to replace the sensors, but you might
be interested in some new devices from Avago that one of my suppliers sent
me an e-flyer about today. Says that they have a similar spectral response
to the human eye, so would match the CdS cells currently in there pretty
well, but may well be enough more sensitive to allow you to use a less
intense light source such as a superbright LED. Worth a look.

http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/productListing.jsp?ATT=avago_image&C...

Arfa- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I've read through this thread, and the best suggestion I've seen has
been the pulsed tungsten-filament lamp, which is usually quite
straightforward to implement. Most miniature lamps will take a great
deal of physical abuse.

You might, however, wish to try fooling with the optics on the LED
you've been trying. The dome of the LED acts like a lens, and it's
possible that by filing it off flat and then polishing it back to
transparency you'll be able to change the beam into something that can
be more readily focussed by the lenses you're using. White LED's
don't have the world's greatest spectrum, but they might conceivably
kick over a CdS cell. Those Radio Shack stores that still sell parts
will sell you CdS cells--I think they're still selling the assortment,
in fact, but just a single one will help you experiment. Just hook
the cell across an ohmmeter.

M Kinsler