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Deep Cycle Batteries in the UK

J

John

Hi! I just wonder if there is anyone posting in these groups from the
UK who is into homepower and solar stuff? If so I wondered where you
get your deep cycle batteries from? Where can you get good value i.e.
more AH for your Pound? And what kind of set up have you got?

At the moment I am just doing something small to start with. I am
going to get a UPS for my computer, but I am going to have a deep
cycle battery connected up to it so I can have my computer system
powered for longer during any power cut.

I think eventually I will possibly get either a solar panel or maybe
even some sort of pedal power system to keep the batteries charged up
instead of powering off the mains.

John
 
E

Eeyore

John said:
Hi! I just wonder if there is anyone posting in these groups from the
UK who is into homepower and solar stuff?

With the relatively low insolation in the UK how can it make any sense to have
PV ?

Graham
 
J

John

With the relatively low insolation in the UK how can it make any sense to have
PV ?

I believe that the Swiss TISO test institute in the past has done
tests on different PV panels and quite a number of them perform very
well in Northern climes with low light. I believe Unisolar and Siemens
make solar panels that are particularly good in low light. There are
probably other makes too.

Energy prices in the UK both Gas and Electric have gone up quite a lot
in recent years and they are highly likely to continue going up in the
future. We are only just deciding to build more nuclear power plants
so that future demand will be met.

I read a post from one bloke here in the UK on the Motley Fool
website, and he has put in a solar system that just heats his water
for shower, hot water and radiators etc. The system he had installed
cost just over £4000. He has posted back a year later and for his
family that is translating into a saving of just over £400. So it
would take just under 10 years for this system to pay for itself in
his case probably slightly sooner if energy prices keep going up.

I imagine that you could do this system with a complete DIY approach
and even save on the costs of this particular bloke. You could source
all the solar panels from the United States as the exchange rate is
quite good at the moment, and the prices are a lot lower anyway in the
States for solar panels and there is a lot more competition. Then if
you did the installation yourself, you could reduce the cost of such a
system quiet a lot perhaps between as much as 25% and 50%.

Cheers

John
 
E

Eeyore

John said:
I believe that the Swiss TISO test institute in the past has done
tests on different PV panels and quite a number of them perform very
well in Northern climes with low light. I believe Unisolar and Siemens
make solar panels that are particularly good in low light. There are
probably other makes too.

Do you have any specific info rather than belief ?

Energy prices in the UK both Gas and Electric have gone up quite a lot
in recent years and they are highly likely to continue going up in the
future.

They're just about to go down again actually !

We are only just deciding to build more nuclear power plants
so that future demand will be met.

I read a post from one bloke here in the UK on the Motley Fool
website, and he has put in a solar system that just heats his water
for shower, hot water and radiators etc. The system he had installed
cost just over £4000. He has posted back a year later and for his
family that is translating into a saving of just over £400.

Let's just think about that.

£400 p.a. equates to ~ £1.10 per day.

You would normally use gas to heat your water and £1.10 equates to 44kWh ! To
collect that much on average you'd need around 10 sq metres of solar collectors.
Worse still you collect least when you need it most. Make that say at least 15 sq
metres to account for that.

I'm entirely confident that he's just making it up !

Graham
 
L

Landline

Unisolar - low light, cold and winter is a very interesting concept used all
in the same sentence.

Unisolar in cold are terrible compared to crystalline, hate the red shift in
the sun in winter and no idea where you get the idea of 'low light'.

Unless I lived in the tropics or close to I would not entertain a Unisolar.

Perhaps you could tell us where you found this data.
[/QUOTE]
 
K

Karl S

John said:
Hi! I just wonder if there is anyone posting in these groups from the
UK who is into homepower and solar stuff? If so I wondered where you
get your deep cycle batteries from? Where can you get good value i.e.
more AH for your Pound? And what kind of set up have you got?

At the moment I am just doing something small to start with. I am
going to get a UPS for my computer, but I am going to have a deep
cycle battery connected up to it so I can have my computer system
powered for longer during any power cut.

I think eventually I will possibly get either a solar panel or maybe
even some sort of pedal power system to keep the batteries charged up
instead of powering off the mains.

John
While I'm not in the UK, I can tell you the modified UPS you are
considering works well here in the US. I got a "broken" UPS for free,
found that the 12v gell battery had failed, and connected in a
deep-cycle 12v battery (in a plastic box to protect the furniture and
carpet) in its place. The charger built into the UPS wasn't designed to
charge a 90Ah battery, but other than the slow recharge all went well.
 
L

Landline

More likely the reason why you don't want to post here is not a flame war.

The reason is you could have a dodgy brand/type, way overpriced, or wanting
to hide something.
 
E

Eeyore

adm said:
Well, those are all potential reasons, but they aren't the right ones.

For a start, PV in the UK is still more expensive than in the US despite the
pound to dollar rate and the market is less developed. As for brand, we
supply ET Solar monocrystalline panels (amongst others). Made in China and
excellent quality. We have stock of 200W panels right now and are selling a
good number of them with very positive customer feedback. As I said before,
the price per Watt is the best I have seen in the UK for comparable
equipment.

All good stuff but jow about taking account of the data here.....
http://re.jrc.cec.eu.int/pvgis/solradframe.php?en&europe

Location: 51°40'8" North, 0°21'27" West, Elevation: 59 m a.s.l,
Nearest city: Watford, United Kingdom (3 km away)

Month Irradiation at inclination: 40 deg (Wh/m2/day)
Jan 1229
Feb 1995
Mar 2770
Apr 4097
May 4527
Jun 4583
Jul 4754
Aug 4458
Sep 3531
Oct 2453
Nov 1485
Dec 910
Year 3071

Those ET Solar panels claim 14% efficiency and I thought I saw a 2m^2 one on
ebay.co.uk for £699 ( no batteries, inverter etc ).

Even so if it can only generate an average of 2kWh daily between Dec and Jan how
much use is that really ?

I made that a mere 314kWh of electricity generation annually. The economics
don't even bear looking at !

Graham
 
E

Eeyore

Eeyore said:
Month Irradiation at inclination: 40 deg (Wh/m2/day)
Jan 1229
Feb 1995
Mar 2770
Apr 4097
May 4527
Jun 4583
Jul 4754
Aug 4458
Sep 3531
Oct 2453
Nov 1485
Dec 910
Year 3071

Those ET Solar panels claim 14% efficiency and I thought I saw a 2m^2 one on
ebay.co.uk for £699 ( no batteries, inverter etc ).

Even so if it can only generate an average of 2kWh daily between Dec and Jan how
much use is that really ?

Ooops ! That's 0.3 kWh. I forgot the 14% efficiency.

That's 0.3 kWh of DC out of the panel before losses due to the charge controller,
battery and inverter.

Graham
 
J

John

Using those figures, you'd need around 14 off 2m sq. panels to generate
4396kWh annually - the average UK household use is somewhere anround 4200kWh
annually.

<snip>

We use approximately 13600 units a year of electricity. Average cost
from our electricity company including any service charges and vat at
5% is almost 10p per unit (20 us cents). So our Electric bill is about
£1300 per year ($2600 usd).

I wasn't really considering getting a full pv system as the costs are
too astronomical especially if you go with a UK company and the pay
back time is too long. I was perhaps just thinking of going with a
solar thermal system with just the one large panel for heating water.

Heating water is one of the biggest costs and this system wouldn't get
rid of the £1300 a year electric bill, but it would take a sizeable
dent into it as well as the gas bill. Between the gas and electric
probably about £600 a year is down to heating, maybe even more.

The person I have been speaking with here in the UK who has had a
Solar thermal system put in said that the maximum grant you can get is
up to £400 but that's only if you get the panels from a UK company not
if you buy them and do the install yourself.

Getting the panels from a UK company though you are going to be paying
well over the odds for a solar panel, and the installation is where
the large costs are too.

If you just bought a good panel from a US company that comes with a
long warranty, you could take advantage of the really good exchange
rate for the pound to the dollar. You could then have it shipped over
and you still wouldn't have paid as much for your panel even after
shipping vat and duty than if you had bought it from a UK company.

There are a large number of great companies in the US selling solar
panels. You could install the system yourself and save a lot of money,
and you would be better off financially than if you had gone with a UK
company and even got a full £400 grant.

The bloke I have been speaking with reckons his heating bills have
been cut quite a lot by having the solar heating system he went with.

If you're sensible and keep your costs to a minimum and go the DIY
route here in the UK, a solar set up like this can work, and it could
pay back in a fairly reasonable period of time.

You might think otherwise because everything seems so expensive in the
UK, but the big thing here is that electricity and gas prices are very
high at the moment, the grid is not dirt cheap like in the US.

So if you are prudent and keep costs to a minimum on a solar set up
like this then pay back time could probably be within a decade for a
solar thermal system due to the high energy costs, and even in the UK
with less sunlight than Texas and Timbuktu etc.

As far as the panels are concerned, can anyone tell me what panels you
would recommend? As far as I can remember it was someone in either
the photovoltaic or the homepower newsgroup (this was about a year
ago) who said that the UniSolar panels were good as well as Siemens.
At the time they pointed me in the direction of an article at the TISO
test institute site but I can't seem to find the article now.

What panel's do you recommend? Are Siemens not any good? BP? Which
type of panel would you recommend beside the make? Multi-crystalline?
The UK isn't rain all the time any more we have been having a lot of
great summers of late with lots of sun. Sure it's not an Arizona or
Sydney but it isn't permanently overcast here.

Cheers

John
 
M

Mike

The bloke I have been speaking with reckons his heating bills have
been cut quite a lot by having the solar heating system he went with.

'Quite a lot'

hmm, an extremely accurate saving and typical of a non scientific
approach to alternative energy.

Forget solar hot water, solar heating and PV and just do the
following:

Insulate, insulate, insulate, then insulate even more.
Draughtproof
Change your boiler to a condensing one
Install a heat recovery system
Forget double glazing unless you live in a greenhouse

Going by current tends and forecasts of where the prices and
technology of photovoltaics are heading then it's still a dead end for
some Western European and North American users and certainly a waste
of money those above about 40 deg N. Maybe 15-20 years from now
things might be different, until then for the majority of consumers
it's a complete waste of money even if you install them yourself. If
you pay for a commercial install then you'd be better off ripping up
50 quid notes and cramming them down the composting bog.

If you are prepared to live completely off grid and adapt your
lifestyle accordingly then it might make sense but unless you can
survive in the depths of winter with the meagre output from half a
dozen 100W panels then forget it.

If you have a swimming pool or bath or shower or wash clothes a lot
during the summer months then solar water heating might make some
sense, otherwise its again a complete waste of money unless you DIY
the whole job as commercially installed systems will never make their
costs of installation back regardless of the patter of the sales
people.

Above all INSULATE

Did I mention insulate?


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