Connect Earth to Neutral in appliance?

[Harry Lethall]

Hi all,
I have just seen a 6KW 230V appliance that advocates what I believe to be a
dangerous practice:

Internally:
1 - bonding together the three phase conductors to one LIVE
2 - bonding together the mains power NEUTRAL and EARTH

Externally:
Connecting these two wires to the mains power source LIVE and EARTH
conductors.

Am I right? Ithis dangerous?

 

[Harry Lethall]

I have just seen a 6KW 230V appliance that advocates what I believe to
be a

Did you read this in a manufacturer's instruction manual or leaflet?

In an installation manual for an air-conditioning unit.

Am I right? Is this dangerous?

For sure one thing is dangerous, that is your lack of knowledge.

Oh! So you think that because I think it is dangerous that I have a lack of
knowledge and refuse to do the installation as described? You think then
that I should go ahead and install the equipment? Connecting it between LIVE
and EARTH? Perhaps you should go back and read my words. You obviously did
not (or cannot) read.

How can an appliance "advocate" anything? Did it speak to you?

Oh! I see. Semantics. Syntax. Word guru. Pedagog or pedant? This is not a
literary forum and I am allowed to post weth any spolling mistakes and word
constructions I wish to use.

The name you have chosen to post under is interesting,
and it makes me wonder if you are a troll.

So you doubt my real name (albeit misspelled for the NG)?
http://web.telia.com/~u85920178/


I was asking a serious question and looking for a little advice or support.
The LAST thing I expected was a troll who just sits there behind the
anonymity of his keyboard, slagging off everything anyone says without
anything useful to contribute. If you have nothing useful to contribute then
just keep quite. You obviously have little or no knowledge, otherwise you
would have either understood, or asked for more info about a potentially
dangerous wiring practice that has been published.

 

[Rheilly Phoull]

In an installation manual for an air-conditioning unit.



Oh! So you think that because I think it is dangerous that I have a lack
of
knowledge and refuse to do the installation as described? You think then
that I should go ahead and install the equipment? Connecting it between
LIVE
and EARTH? Perhaps you should go back and read my words. You obviously did
not (or cannot) read.



Oh! I see. Semantics. Syntax. Word guru. Pedagog or pedant? This is not a
literary forum and I am allowed to post weth any spolling mistakes and
word
constructions I wish to use.



So you doubt my real name (albeit misspelled for the NG)?
http://web.telia.com/~u85920178/


I was asking a serious question and looking for a little advice or
support.
The LAST thing I expected was a troll who just sits there behind the
anonymity of his keyboard, slagging off everything anyone says without
anything useful to contribute. If you have nothing useful to contribute
then
just keep quite. You obviously have little or no knowledge, otherwise you
would have either understood, or asked for more info about a potentially
dangerous wiring practice that has been published.

Mate!!
If you are even considering that it is possible to connect a 3 phase air con
to single phase you are just demonstrating your lack of knowledge. Forget
all the troll stuff etc. you are out of your depth sunshine !!

 

[Harry Lethall]

Mate!!
If you are even considering that it is possible to connect a 3 phase air con
to single phase you are just demonstrating your lack of knowledge. Forget
all the troll stuff etc. you are out of your depth sunshine !!

The point is that I refuse to do what is stated in the manual, and I am
looking for support. The manual is telling me that I MUST connect together
three phases and connet these between LIVE and EARTH. I think this is
totally unacceptable and dangerous, but I have been outnumbered by local
"experts".

I know EXACTLY what I am doing, and that is refusing to to that which is
described in an installation instruction.

If ANY instruction tells me to do anything that can result in a bit of kit
having a live chassis after clipping one wire then that instruction is a
load of bollox and I refuse to do it.

Local "experts" have produced 16 drawings for connection to different power
supplies around the world, and 8 of those suggest bonding the EARTH and
NEUTRAL posts together and using just one return. If that one return is
disconnected thent he whole chassis will become live - whether I am "out of
my depth sunshine" or not, I refuse to do it and I was hoping for some
support.

Guess I will have to find another forum with someone who knows what they are
doing.

Byee

 

[Hairy Lethal]

Why don't you tell us the make and model - somebody might be familiar

with that item and be able to advise - You've already been asked once,
but, no, you'd rather spout a load of crap. Why don't you CALL THE
MAKERS or their local agents or stockists? Or call a local aircon
installer? Dick.

- Equipment model not yet released.

- I work for the makers.

Basically **they** have documented about 16 different power
"configurations". All will get the gear working, but some are dangerous, or
contravene regulations in different countries.

For example, in the UK one power regulation states that the consumer shall
not bond together the Earth and neutral conductors in the consumer
equipment. In the manual I have for review, at least half the configurations
tell the end user to do just this.

Two of the configurations instruct the installer to connect the power
between LIVE and EARTH.If you touch the equipment chassis and cut one wire
then you will get killed. Again, this is illegal in many countries.

I have voiced my objections, but I am only one mouth, and a foreigner in
this country, so my input is worth nothing! But if the document is
published, and the equipment released, then I will indeed post the
information here for your consideration.

I am just trying to avoid publishing a document that can potentially kill
people, and I was looking for support, or reference to documents on the web
that I could refer to. I think it is best that we forget it all for the
moment - not your problem!

 

[John G]

Hi all,
I have just seen a 6KW 230V appliance that advocates what I believe to
be a
dangerous practice:

Internally:
1 - bonding together the three phase conductors to one LIVE
2 - bonding together the mains power NEUTRAL and EARTH

Externally:
Connecting these two wires to the mains power source LIVE and EARTH
conductors.

Am I right? Ithis dangerous?

Please give us
A. What country you are in so we can make some assumptions about the
company's expertise in the real world.

B. Quote the full paragraph you are referring to so we can try and
understand.

C. what is 230 volts? Phase to phase? Phase to neutral? or what.

A three phase device with 3 wires connected together becomes a ONE phase
device so what do you mean? If it has 3 phase motor then it will just
burn.

No civilised power system in the world allows the protective ground to
be part of the current carrying wiring and is generally only connected
to the neutral at the customer entrance point . NEVER within the
equipment.

 

[Don Kelly]

The point is that I refuse to do what is stated in the manual, and I am
looking for support. The manual is telling me that I MUST connect together
three phases and connet these between LIVE and EARTH. I think this is
totally unacceptable and dangerous, but I have been outnumbered by local
"experts".

I know EXACTLY what I am doing, and that is refusing to to that which is
described in an installation instruction.

If ANY instruction tells me to do anything that can result in a bit of kit
having a live chassis after clipping one wire then that instruction is a
load of bollox and I refuse to do it.

Local "experts" have produced 16 drawings for connection to different
power
supplies around the world, and 8 of those suggest bonding the EARTH and
NEUTRAL posts together and using just one return. If that one return is
disconnected thent he whole chassis will become live - whether I am "out
of
my depth sunshine" or not, I refuse to do it and I was hoping for some
support.

Guess I will have to find another forum with someone who knows what they
are
doing.

Byee

I'm glad that you are not willing to follow the instructions in the
manual-which don't make sense. Now find out more about the device before you
do any connecting of any kind.

 

[[email protected]]

| I have just seen a 6KW 230V appliance that advocates what I believe to be a
| dangerous practice:
|
| Internally:
| 1 - bonding together the three phase conductors to one LIVE
| 2 - bonding together the mains power NEUTRAL and EARTH
|
| Externally:
| Connecting these two wires to the mains power source LIVE and EARTH
| conductors.
|
| Am I right? Ithis dangerous?

Could be. Maybe not. You didn't provide complete and clear information.

The way you worded the description is very poor.

Is this a three phase appliance, or does it merely have 3 separate elements
that can be powered by three phases in balance when three phase power is
available, and can be powered by the same phase if only one is available?
You must understand what the appliance is and how it should be wired to
know if it has been wired correctly.

Connecting neutral and earth is not good. That can be dangerous. But it
is not as bad if the run of wire only serves the one appliance. It would
be more dangerous if there is more than one appliance on that circuit.

 

[Hairy Lethal]

| I have just seen a 6KW 230V appliance that advocates what I believe to
be a

| dangerous practice:
|
| Internally:
| 1 - bonding together the three phase conductors to one LIVE
| 2 - bonding together the mains power NEUTRAL and EARTH
|
| Externally:
| Connecting these two wires to the mains power source LIVE and EARTH
| conductors.
|
| Am I right? Ithis dangerous?

Could be. Maybe not. You didn't provide complete and clear information.

The way you worded the description is very poor.

Yes, but I was a little "uptight" having last a couple of verbal arguments.

Is this a three phase appliance, or does it merely have 3 separate elements
that can be powered by three phases in balance when three phase power is
available, and can be powered by the same phase if only one is available?
You must understand what the appliance is and how it should be wired to
know if it has been wired correctly.

The equipment has a 5-terminal connection for PE, N, L1, L2 and L3.

L1, L2 and L3 may be configured by another block for phase-to-phase or
phase-to-neutral. This is not in doubt and is subject to clever design.

Connecting neutral and earth is not good. That can be dangerous. But it
is not as bad if the run of wire only serves the one appliance. It would
be more dangerous if there is more than one appliance on that circuit.

"contrex" above gave me the information. I Googled the full document and
quoted it, chapter and verse to my employer. The designers have been
informed, together with a full copy of this document

The Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations 2002
PART II PROTECTION AND EARTHING

BR H

 

[Hairy Lethal]

Then it may well be illegal to offer the equipment for sale in the UK.

It has to pass the relevant EU & UK safety standards, and must be
wired and operated in accordance with those standards.

The Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations 2002

PART II PROTECTION AND EARTHING

I Googled the info you gave and found the full document on the web. Many
thanks, that is exactly what I was looking for - some reference information.
I had found a series of BSI documents, but they were just instruction sheets
for electricians, ultimately based upon the above document.

The Health And Safety Executive would be very interested in anyone
proposing to ride a coach and horses through the legislation. You need
not give your name. (If they are as bad as you say, they'll all be in
chokey sooner or later. Do you want to go with them?) I would have
thought that any illegal instructions would get picked up in the
approval process, unless your employers are planning to sidestep that
in some way?

I do not think that is necessary now, but I shall bear this in mind if there
is ever any recurrence of this sort of thing. I think that my basic problem
is that I have a fair idea as to what is right or wrong, but I probably have
more experience than the person/people who decided to offer so many **new
options**. But then again, I am getting close to retirement.

Thank you once again for the info. It certainly lit a fire-cracker under my
bosses arse

Regards H

 

[John G]

Yes, but I was a little "uptight" having last a couple of verbal
arguments.


The equipment has a 5-terminal connection for PE, N, L1, L2 and L3.

L1, L2 and L3 may be configured by another block for phase-to-phase or
phase-to-neutral. This is not in doubt and is subject to clever
design.


"contrex" above gave me the information. I Googled the full document
and
quoted it, chapter and verse to my employer. The designers have been
informed, together with a full copy of this document

The Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations 2002
PART II PROTECTION AND EARTHING

BR H

Please be a little more forthcoming with details.

Is this thing just a heater or does it have a motor or motors in it?
You are very likely to get bad answers if you only 1/2 describe your
problem.