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CMOS input protection

P

Pimpom

I'm designing a project based mainly on CD4000 series logic
devices. The finished product will consist of two different
sections linked by a long (~40m) 2-core shielded cable. The
signals are very low frequency pulses (a few Hz at most) and
transition times are not critical.

It's not practicable to let the two sections share a common
power supply. Neither is it possible to ensure that the
separate PSUs will be switched on and off at the same time
or in a specified sequence. Therefore, one unit may already
be sending a signal to the other before the latter's PSU is
turned on.

To protect the receiving unit, I'm thinking of placing 10k
resistors in series with the CMOS inputs (in addition to
parallel terminating resistors) plus Schottky diodes from
the IC input pins to Vdd and ground.

Is this OK? Is it necessary? Is the integrated protection
good enough?
 
P

Pimpom

John said:
Sounds good. You could even use 100K, as long as the
schottkies
aren't too leaky.

I have BAT85 in stock. I haven't worked out the leakage at
worst case temps but I suspect that it might be a bit too
high with 100k. I could use the less leaky BAT43. I have a
limited range to choose from where I live.
Old A-series CD4000 chips could latch up, and short the
VCC rail to
ground, if you forward-biased the ESD diodes a bit. Nasty
stuff. With
B series, and 100K resistors, just the ESD diodes would be
enough; a
cap to ground, lowpass filtering, and a Schmitt gate would
be
prudent. You don't really need a terminator.

They're all B series types. The input stage already is a
Schmitt gate. The caps might be a good idea.
If the grounds aren't the same voltage on both ends, you
should do
some sort of differential receiver. Opamps would work at
these speeds.

I'll keep that in mind. Thing is, this is a simple project -
only 6 ICs in the receiver - and I want to keep it as simple
as possible. Thanks for the suggestions.
 
J

Joerg

Pimpom said:
I'm designing a project based mainly on CD4000 series logic
devices. The finished product will consist of two different
sections linked by a long (~40m) 2-core shielded cable. The
signals are very low frequency pulses (a few Hz at most) and
transition times are not critical.

It's not practicable to let the two sections share a common
power supply. Neither is it possible to ensure that the
separate PSUs will be switched on and off at the same time
or in a specified sequence. Therefore, one unit may already
be sending a signal to the other before the latter's PSU is
turned on.

To protect the receiving unit, I'm thinking of placing 10k
resistors in series with the CMOS inputs (in addition to
parallel terminating resistors) plus Schottky diodes from
the IC input pins to Vdd and ground.

Is this OK? Is it necessary? Is the integrated protection
good enough?

Almost ok but not quite. Add a few hundred ohms from your external diode
and the IC pin. This makes sure that the lion's share of unwanted
current flows through the external diode and not the substrate paths.
Also, then you can use regular diodes such as the BAV99. Or a BAV199 if
you need low leakage.

What can happen is that the signals coming in from the powered unit try
to power up the other unit. The VCC there can then slowly creep up. Make
sure this situation is handled properly and nothing can go kaboom
because it resulted in undefined logic states. It can affect other units
in return because the "half-powered" crcuit can send out undefined
voltages on its outputs or possibly oscillate somewhere.
 
R

Rocky

I'm designing a project based mainly on CD4000 series logic


It's not practicable to let the two sections share a common
power supply. Neither is it possible to ensure that the
separate PSUs will be switched on and off at the same time
or in a specified sequence. Therefore, one unit may already
be sending a signal to the other before the latter's PSU is
turned on.

To protect the receiving unit, I'm thinking of placing 10k
resistors in series with the CMOS inputs (in addition to
parallel terminating resistors) plus Schottky diodes from
the IC input pins to Vdd and ground.

Remember the transmit. Maybe a bit naive, but I used to use 1k
on the outputs and 10k on the input. Seemed pretty robust. Never
did production in those days though.
 
M

mike

I'm designing a project based mainly on CD4000 series logic
devices. The finished product will consist of two different
sections linked by a long (~40m) 2-core shielded cable. The
signals are very low frequency pulses (a few Hz at most) and
transition times are not critical.

This kind of vague thinking is the root of much design evil.
You know what you mean, but we don't.
The audio guy and a guy who builds picosecond laser drivers
will have very different perceptions of "critical transition times".
If the time is not critical, make it infinite and you don't need
the cable.
Numbers were invented for a reason. Use 'em.
It's not practicable to let the two sections share a common
power supply. Neither is it possible to ensure that the
separate PSUs will be switched on and off at the same time
or in a specified sequence. Therefore, one unit may already
be sending a signal to the other before the latter's PSU is
turned on.

To protect the receiving unit, I'm thinking of placing 10k
resistors in series with the CMOS inputs (in addition to
parallel terminating resistors) plus Schottky diodes from
the IC input pins to Vdd and ground.

Is this OK? Is it necessary? Is the integrated protection
good enough?
Must be the phase of the moon. Today, there seem to be a lot
of very vague questions with fromthehip answers.
It's like a blindfolded quick-draw contest with live ammo.

You've been given some good advice, but there are a lot of
issues to consider.

I take a lot of flak here for insisting that people define
exactly what they're trying to accomplish.

A typical scenario involves tunnel vision. Some very smart
engineer comes up with a solution that has one little problem.
She asks about that problem and gets a solution to THAT
problem, not realizing that it created two additional problems.
It's often worth a few minutes to rethink the system.

The design goals for intended operation are no more important
than the specs for what happens when some idiot gets their hands
on it and does unspeakable things. Unfortunately, people tend
to skip both.

You don't say what your "product" is, but there's a wide range
of system requirements depending on the target demographic.
A simple catch-all starting point relevant to this
discussion is electrostatic discharge.

What ESD protection do you require and how are you gonna verify
that you meet it? A 10K resistor sounds like a lot of
protection until you start poking a 15KV ESD generator around.
The devil is in the details. And the current doesn't always
go through the resistor like you'd expect if you looked at the
schematic. If you don't believe it, watch a few lightning
strikes up close.

A properly deployed opto-isolator can cure a lot of common-mode
system ills, but it's not a panacea.
It might protect your CMOS input, but now, you have to protect
the opto-isolator from ESD...unless you use fiber for the whole
run. And that will address a number of other issues like EMC.

Diodes are another potential gotcha.
You're gonna need a minimum of two resistors.
One to protect the input from the peak overvoltage allowed by
the diodes and strays. And another resistor to protect the diodes.

For 5V hobby circuits, I've taken to using 5.1V zener diodes as the
protection element...and here's why.

I once built a GPIB interface from a PIC processor. I unplugged the
power to the chip and the GPIB kept right on controlling.
I immediately started writing a paper on how I'd written code that
tapped into zero-point-energy and ordering parts for my water-powered car.
Then, I realized that the GPIB was powering the chip through the
forward-biased input protection diodes on the PIC. Not any part of it
met spec, but it worked just fine.

Depending on the circuit, a diode clamp to VCC can let an
input transient take out every IC on the board. That's probably
not the protection you expected. It's easy to assume that you can
shunt arbitrary current into VCC, but the math might surprise you.

The zener diodes can protect the circuit from power supply injection.

You've identified power sequencing as a potential problem.
Consider when the protection diodes put just enough voltage
on VCC to cause a lot of dissipation in some external power switching device
and let the smoke out.
Then, there's the problem that the robotic welding arm kills two
workers if you turn power on in the wrong sequence.

We haven't even started talking about what happens when your system
clock happens to be just the right frequency to resonate the cable
and makes the FCC very unhappy. Unless your operator has a ham
license and 40-meters is the electrical length. ;-)

Write the specs...ALL the specs including the design verification
procedures and the customer acceptance test procedures and the
third party certification test procedures. Consider customer abuse.

Details matter...that's where the devil lives...right next door to
Murphy.
 
L

legg

I'm designing a project based mainly on CD4000 series logic
devices. The finished product will consist of two different
sections linked by a long (~40m) 2-core shielded cable. The
signals are very low frequency pulses (a few Hz at most) and
transition times are not critical.

It's not practicable to let the two sections share a common
power supply. Neither is it possible to ensure that the
separate PSUs will be switched on and off at the same time
or in a specified sequence. Therefore, one unit may already
be sending a signal to the other before the latter's PSU is
turned on.

To protect the receiving unit, I'm thinking of placing 10k
resistors in series with the CMOS inputs (in addition to
parallel terminating resistors) plus Schottky diodes from
the IC input pins to Vdd and ground.

Is this OK? Is it necessary? Is the integrated protection
good enough?

Something like the NC7SZ05 claims high impedance inputs and outputs
when powered down. I'm not sure this protects external circuitry if
the NC7SZ05 power sequencing is not ground-contact-first and
ground-contact-last, which may be an issue you should check for with
remotely located subassemblies.

You can't always guarantee that power, signals and their references
will be connected in a specific way, unless you design them to do so.

RL
 
M

miso

I'm designing a project based mainly on CD4000 series logic
devices. The finished product will consist of two different
sections linked by a long (~40m) 2-core shielded cable. The
signals are very low frequency pulses (a few Hz at most) and
transition times are not critical.

It's not practicable to let the two sections share a common
power supply. Neither is it possible to ensure that the
separate PSUs will be switched on and off at the same time
or in a specified sequence. Therefore, one unit may already
be sending a signal to the other before the latter's PSU is
turned on.

To protect the receiving unit, I'm thinking of placing 10k
resistors in series with the CMOS inputs (in addition to
parallel terminating resistors) plus Schottky diodes from
the IC input pins to Vdd and ground.

Is this OK? Is it necessary? Is the integrated protection
good enough?

Is there a possibility this cable with generate voltage due to a piezo
effect?

There will probably be scenarios where the far end is powered through
protection diodes via the signal. Open drain would solve that.

I'd go opto.
 
M

MrTallyman

Is there a possibility this cable with generate voltage due to a piezo
effect?

There will probably be scenarios where the far end is powered through
protection diodes via the signal. Open drain would solve that.

I'd go opto.


Piezo effect? Is there physical mechanical pressure being placed on
it?

That is a dumb question. why would a man, company, engineer, whoever
make a cable that fucks up? Use some common sense. All compressing it
would do is change the interconductor capacitance *at that location*.
Generate a voltage? Not.
 
W

whit3rd

Diodes are another potential gotcha. ....
For 5V hobby circuits, I've taken to using 5.1V zener diodes

and that's a good solution, especially if used with a CD4050-style
CMOS gate which lacks input clamp-to-VCC diodes, because
it prevents your signal current from (for instance) charging
a nonrechargeable battery. This presumes, of course, that
your two CMOS gizmos on the wire share a common ground
which is their negative power supply terminal.

Another item that hasn't been mentioned yet, is a pullup or
pulldown resistor on any CMOS input that might become
disconnected when you unplug the long cable. You cannot ever
let CMOS inputs float.

Yet another concern: if the circuit isn't double-insulated (isolated
from ground) on either end, your grounding conductor in the cable
could carry large currents in case of a fault. If that's an issue,
the optoisolator DOES help quite a bit; otherwise, it's just a
power and complexity bunion.
 
M

mike

Piezo effect? Is there physical mechanical pressure being placed on
it?

That is a dumb question. why would a man, company, engineer, whoever
make a cable that fucks up? Use some common sense. All compressing it
would do is change the interconductor capacitance *at that location*.
Generate a voltage? Not.

As a condescending, potty mouthed nit-picker with considerable
experience telling people
how stupid they are, you'd think you'd at least attempt to scour the
nits out of your own learned pontifications!

Q=C*V. If you change C by mechanical deformation, what happens to V?

I'm not saying that it makes any practical impact on the current thread...
just that you might be hungry and could use some of your own words to eat.
Bon Appetit!
 
Piezo effect? Is there physical mechanical pressure being placed on

it?



That is a dumb question. why would a man, company, engineer, whoever

make a cable that fucks up? Use some common sense. All compressing it

would do is change the interconductor capacitance *at that location*.

Generate a voltage? Not.

He meant triboelectric effect, duh.
 
I'm designing a project based mainly on CD4000 series logic

devices. The finished product will consist of two different

sections linked by a long (~40m) 2-core shielded cable. The

signals are very low frequency pulses (a few Hz at most) and

transition times are not critical.



It's not practicable to let the two sections share a common

power supply. Neither is it possible to ensure that the

separate PSUs will be switched on and off at the same time

or in a specified sequence. Therefore, one unit may already

be sending a signal to the other before the latter's PSU is

turned on.



To protect the receiving unit, I'm thinking of placing 10k

resistors in series with the CMOS inputs (in addition to

parallel terminating resistors) plus Schottky diodes from

the IC input pins to Vdd and ground.



Is this OK? Is it necessary? Is the integrated protection

good enough?

The CD4000 series should not latch up if the currents 'forced' through inputs and outputs are less than something on the order of 10ma. That is DC, but there are unspecified hazards with dV/dt induced internal currents on those terminals too. Since your signaling frequency is so low, a simple RC will eliminate any possibility of latch-up due to power supply sequencing or ESD, no BATs necessary. An internal loading of Vcc wil ensure that external powering of the dead circuit does not produce a working voltage for any other part.
Please view in a fixed-width font
such as Courier.

..
..
..
..
.. VDD
.. |
.. .----+
.. | |
.. | |
.. | |\|
.. >----[1M]---+---------| >--->
.. | | |/|
.. | [100K] |
.. === | |
.. 0.0033u | '----+
.. | |
.. --- ---
.. /// ///
..
..
..
..
 
Piezo effect? Is there physical mechanical pressure being placed on

it?



That is a dumb question. why would a man, company, engineer, whoever

make a cable that fucks up? Use some common sense. All compressing it

would do is change the interconductor capacitance *at that location*.

Generate a voltage? Not.

PTFE is famous for its piezoelectric properties but the effect is very low level and only important for extremely low noise and sensitive instrumentation applications. There are specialty coaxial cables made for enhanced piezoelectric effect for other practical applications:
http://www.meas-spec.com/product/t_product.aspx?id=2476
 
M

miso

As a condescending, potty mouthed nit-picker with considerable
experience telling people
how stupid they are, you'd think you'd at least attempt to scour the
nits out of your own learned pontifications!

Q=C*V. If you change C by mechanical deformation, what happens to V?

I'm not saying that it makes any practical impact on the current thread...
just that you might be hungry and could use some of your own words to eat.
Bon Appetit!

You cover your bases and ask the questions. How do I know where that
cable is going? It could be buried in the dirt and cars drive over it.
There could be a scenario where the driver is not connected, hence the
line is high impedance.

Clearly Tallyman (or whatever the shithead calls himself) has never put
anything into production.
 
L

legg

Those type of devices will work as desired.

The way they work:

Outputs use a P-channel structure that allows the body to float up
along with the output node potential, thus it won't support current
flow in the Output-to-VDD direction... an "almost perfect" diode.

Inputs don't use a diode to VDD. They instead use an avalanche mode
N-channel device (to ground) to "catch" ESD.

...Jim Thompson

Probably, so long as there's no hot plugging of assemblies going on.
Although power may be remote, there's always a ground either showing
up, or missing, when least expected. Battery-powered devices are the
worst in this regard, particularly if a charging feature is attempted.
That gives a potential positive rail pre-contact. Ouch.

RL
 
J

Jasen Betts

Piezo effect? Is there physical mechanical pressure being placed on
it?

That is a dumb question. why would a man, company, engineer, whoever
make a cable that fucks up? Use some common sense. All compressing it
would do is change the interconductor capacitance *at that location*.
Generate a voltage? Not.

variable capacitances generate voltage, if biased, that's how condenser
microphones work.
 
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