CFLs - retrofitting low ESR capacitors

[Sylvia Else]

Has anyone here tried retrofitting low ESR capacitors to CFLs with a
view to improving their turn-on performance - i.e. so that they reach
full brightness quickly?

Sylvia.

 

[Jamie]

Has anyone here tried retrofitting low ESR capacitors to CFLs with a
view to improving their turn-on performance - i.e. so that they reach
full brightness quickly?

Sylvia.

If you're referring to the inverter supply? I think those caps are
already of low ESR types. If not, they should be.

Jamie

 

[Trevor Wilson]

Has anyone here tried retrofitting low ESR capacitors to CFLs with a
view to improving their turn-on performance - i.e. so that they reach
full brightness quickly?

Sylvia.

**The full brightness thing is not associated with the electronics. It's an
issue with the gas in the tube and, to a lesser extent, the phosphor
coating. You can prove this for yourself, by measuring the light output of a
standard (iron ballast) fluoro. Light output gradually increases over a few
seconds (or minutes, depending on ambient temperature).

Don't sweat it anyway, LEDs will replace them in most applications very
soon. I've been mucking about with a couple of these recently:

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/12w-3500k-800lm-warm-white-led-emitter-metal-strip-12-14v-80310

It delivers almost double the light output of an 11 Watt T5 fluoro and is
far more compact, dimmable and has nicer colour temperature.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Jamie" = Maynard A. Philbrook, radio ham KA1LPH and total fuckwit

If you're referring to the inverter supply? I think those caps are
already of low ESR types. If not, they should be.

** Wot absurd craplogy.





..... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"Stupider than Anyone Else on Earth "

Has anyone here tried retrofitting low ESR capacitors to CFLs with a view
to improving their turn-on performance - i.e. so that they reach full
brightness quickly?

** There are no fairies left at the bottom of this mad bitch's garden.

They all vacated decades ago in acute embarrassment.





..... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"larry moe 'n curly"

Another problem is opening up the CFL to get to the circuit board and
reattaching the cover because regular glues don't work, and you want a
strong bond that won't fail at high temperature.


** Most CFLs use no glue at all, the halves snap fit together.

Silicone adhesive ( eg Silastic) will handle the case temp easily - can be
used to secure loose glass tubes in the case too.




..... Phil

 

[Sylvia Else]

**The full brightness thing is not associated with the electronics. It's an
issue with the gas in the tube and, to a lesser extent, the phosphor
coating. You can prove this for yourself, by measuring the light output of a
standard (iron ballast) fluoro. Light output gradually increases over a few
seconds (or minutes, depending on ambient temperature).

Don't sweat it anyway, LEDs will replace them in most applications very
soon. I've been mucking about with a couple of these recently:

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/12w-3500k-800lm-warm-white-led-emitter-metal-strip-12-14v-80310

It delivers almost double the light output of an 11 Watt T5 fluoro and is
far more compact, dimmable and has nicer colour temperature.

Having got used to the higher colour temperatures of CFLs, I find that I
prefer them.

Incandescents weren't given a lower colour temperature because people
preferred them, it was just the way they came out. If the first
practical domestic electric lights had been of daylight colour
temperature, I imagine that's what everyone would always have wanted,
and people would have given short shrift to this yellow rubbish.

However, I note that the led emitter strips are available in higher
colour temperatures.

Sylvia.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

I also favor the light temperature of the daylight or sunlight CF
lamps, which are typically over 6000K. My eyes adapt to the light
very well, although I rarely use direct lighting.. most of my CFLs
are pointed upward for bounce lighting.

The majority of incandescents give off a red light, and I've read
that up to 90% of the output from incancescent lights is in the
infrared region.

**95% ~ 98% is far closer to reality. Halogens are somewhat more efficient.

For folks that experience cold weather for half of

the year, the infrared adds to their comfort.

**So do heat pumps, which are vastly more efficient.

This is easily seen when using film photography as the color levels
aren't natural, but shifted so far that a blue filter is needed to
achieve natural colors.

Only the very early versions of CFLs I purchased were slow to reach
full output.. maybe I've just been lucky, but the ones I use every
day come on quickly.

I strongly suspect that widespread use of LED lighting will have a
much more severe impact on the environment that using incandescents.
The environutz are easily mislead.

**As are you. Provide your proof that LED lighting will have a much more
severe impact on the environment.

I believe that the manufacture of LED lighting will use more energy
and create more pollutants than glass lamps ever did.

**You "believe" it, do you? Got some proof? In your proof, you may consider
the following:

* LEDs use a miniscule amount of silicon.
* Incandescent lamps use a very large amount of silicon
* LEDs can easily last 100 times longer than incandescent lamps.
* LEDs are at least 10 times more efficient than incandescents (and around 5
~ 6 times more efficient than halogens).

The plastics

and various compounds used for component manufacturing will result in
more irreversible air and water contamination.

**Really? Are you trying to suggest that it is impossible to deal with the
pollution caused by the manufacture of semiconductors? Curious.

The extra slap in the face comes with the excessive plastic packaging
the CFLs are usually sold in.

**Huh? You talking about CFLs or LEDs? Either way, the last CFLs and LED
downlights I purchased were packed in recycled cardboard. No plastic in
sight.

.. when old glass lamps were generally

packaged in easily recycled paper products (even as litter, the paper
breaks down to something useful).

**Curiously enough, the last incandescent I purchased (a halogen) was packed
in a cardboard/plastic material. Far less enviroinmentally sensitive than
the LEDs and CFLs I bought.

In addition to increased energy usage, the waste issue of CFLs and LED
lights presents more pollutants than a simple glass lamp ever did.

**Really? What are the waste products you speak of? Have you factored in the
extremely long life of CFLs and LEDs? (I have 19 CFLs in my home, 1
incandescent and a dozen halogens). In six years, I've replaced the
incandescent 2 times (VERY rarely used). I've replaced 10 halogens (rarely
used) and, except for two dropped CFLs, none have been replaced, despite
being used for upwards of 6 hours per day.

The LED lamps aren't going to last for an average of 10 years,

**I'm still using some first generation white LEDs. They're left on 24/7 and
have been for more than 10 years. The latest ones are brighter and should
last much longer.

not

when they'll be manufactured in China/India/etc by the lowest bidder,
and using lead-free solder and the cheapest components available.
The marketing hype and lip service are BS, as they generally always
are.

**YOU have no clue. None whatsoever.

The data is generally never presented in real-world terms, and there
won't be any significant data presented, such as the conversion of
Las Vegas to LED lighting.

The LED lamps that I've seen at stores won't fit in most common
existing lighting fixtures, and have a price of $30-40US. This will
be a huge unnecessary expense to an average homeowner due to a ban on
incandescents.

**More bollocks. LED lighting is rapidly falling in cost. VERY rapidly
indeed. CFLs were expensive a few years back and now they cost barely more
than incandescents. They last many times longer and use far less energy.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

So why do some CFLs keep the brightness more constant than others?

**I can't answer that question. All the ones I use are fine.

Aren't LEDs also temperature sensitive?

**In the same sense that all semiconductors are, yes. Any decent LED
lighting manufacturer will take care of cooling.

 

[Sylvia Else]

Only the very early versions of CFLs I purchased were slow to reach full
output.. maybe I've just been lucky, but the ones I use every day come
on quickly.

My experience has been that they're fine when new, but as they age, they
take longer and longer to reach, or even approach, full brightness.

I had been under the impression from previous discussion that this was
attributed to the deteriorating ESR in cheap capacitors, but that view
doesn't seem to be getting any support here.

Sylvia.

 

[Phil Allison]

"kreed"

It would be a huge hassle to get the case apart, and back together
again,

** Pretty easy with most I have bought .

All the CFL's I have here that have failed, it is always the tube that
is the cause. The electronics - including the filter capacitor are
always fine, so there isnt any point in replacing it even for
longevity reasons.

** Generally, the electronics outlasts the tubes - but that is only
because the tube fails so quickly, like a few hundred up to 2000 hours at
most. I have a collection now of CFLs that are slow to come on, flicker or
have lost 40% of their light output.

The electronics will fail early if the CFL gets hot in use because it is
inside a small light fitting - like an Oyster or spherical ceiling lamp.

http://www.onlinelighting.com.au/images/products/Omega/Deluxe_Oyster_17_5cm.jpg



..... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"Arfa Daily"

Best thing would just be to replace the CFLs with incandescent bulbs ...

** Incandescent bulbs have a HUGE list of advantages over CFLs - among
them:

1. Full spectrum, warm colour light.

2. All examples use same, long proven technology and have near identical
characteristics.

3. Full dimmable with any dimmer.

4. Very fast on and no change in light output or colour during life.

5. Resistive load = ideal power factor and no RFI.

6. Life of lamp easily extended by use of dimmers out to many thousands of
hours.

7. Will operate normally in very cold and very hot environments.

8. Inherently water, steam and condensation proof.

9. No deterioration in storage, indefinite life in low use situations.

10. Fail in a safe, predictable manner with no smoke or fire hazard.

11. Multiple lamps up to rated load may be used on a circuit, CFLs require
circuits to be de-rated by 90%.

12. Can be used in any light fitting without loss of life span.

13. No Mercury hazard if broken or when disposed of.

14 No pollution hazard during manufacture or disposal.

15. No loss of life span when cycled on and off often as you like.

16. Much lower purchase cost that good quality CFLs.


Not one of the above is true for CFLs.

There are many ordinary lighting applications that typical CFLs cannot do at
all.

Banning regular incandescents from sale was green lunatic madness.



..... Phil

 

[Sylvia Else]

I was given to understand that the colour of an incandescent bulb is
what humans are comfortable with, because it closely matches the colour
and spectrum of our sun.

The sun's effective temperature (the blackbody temperature that gives
approximately the same spectrum) is about 5800K, which is a lot higher
than the colour temperature of an incandescent.

The light from an incandescent is deficient in the blue end of the
spectrum, which makes blue-coloured objects look darker than they should.

Sylvia.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Arfa Daily"
"Trevor Wilson"

Whereabouts ?

** The TW charlatan is being a real clever dick.

Glass is about 23% silicon by weight.

Got NOTHING to do with the very nasty polluting and carcinogenic processes
involved in making silicon semiconductors.


..... Phil

 

[Sylvia Else]

Whereabouts ?

In the glass.

But we're never going to run out of silicon.

Sylvia.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Sylvia Else"

The sun's effective temperature (the blackbody temperature that gives
approximately the same spectrum) is about 5800K, which is a lot higher
than the colour temperature of an incandescent.

** Daylight has no particular colour temp.

It varies from 11,000K on a overcasts day to less than 2000K at dawn and
dusk.

However, daylight ( like incandescent light ) has a smooth spectrum and the
human eye adjusts to the varying colour temps almost perfectly.

The light from an incandescent is deficient in the blue end of the
spectrum, which makes blue-coloured objects look darker than they should.

** Bollocks.


.... Phil

 

[Trevor Wilson]

My experience has been that they're fine when new, but as they age,
they take longer and longer to reach, or even approach, full
brightness.
I had been under the impression from previous discussion that this was
attributed to the deteriorating ESR in cheap capacitors, but that view
doesn't seem to be getting any support here.

**Because it's bollocks. I have a lot of CFLs around the place. I use a
light meter to monitor one lamp, in order to guage it's approximate life.
During the Winter, it takes a long time (about 1 minute) to reach full
brightness. In Summer, full brightness is reached in a few seconds. This has
not altered significantly in 6 years.

FWIW: The lamp is a 23 Watt Philips type. It is operated around 1.5 hours
per day and there has been a 5% fall in Lux over the past 6 years.

 

[Trevor Wilson]

I like CFLs in the high color temperatures (daylight) for the natural
colors of objects, and because I'm not bothered by the flicker of
typical ceiling fixture and smaller fluorescent (long) tubes (and
I've put in a half-century, too, and won't mind not being around
after another one).
I don't particularly like the mercury vapor issue or the far-short
lifetimes of the CFLs. I haven't gotten over 2 years of service from
the CFLs packaged as 5-7 year lamps.. and I believe this same hoax is
being perptetuated for LEDs.

**Points:

* It's not a hoax. LEDs last a very long time. White ones, not so long. I
have some first generation white LEDs that are still working after a decade
of 24/7 operation. Light output is around 50% of new.
* I have CFLs that have been in service for around 10 years. The only two
failures I've experienced were mechanical (I dropped them).
* If you buy crap CFLs, you can expect poor service. I only buy premium
quality CFLs.

It's nothing new, and the same pitch always works because hardly
anyone pays attention to how effective new products actually are, as
far as return on investment.

**I do. I keep track of the life of my lamps. Incandescents don't last long.
CFLs last a very long time.

The marketing hype is the same: These (product) will pay for
themselves, just look at these numbers.
The numbers are generally never accurate because they're based upon
best case scenarios (not increasing energy costs, etc).

I don't think there will be much to salvage from CFLs or LEDs in the
way of recycling.. what's worth anything inside them?

**Aluminium. Nothing else of use. Fortunately, they last a VERY long time,
so they don't need to be recylced often. Incandescents are different. They
use a LOT of silicon, solder and some brass (or plated steel). Hardly any is
recoverable economically. And wait: It gets worse. Incandescents don't last
long. I get around 100 hours from my lone incandescent and around 300 hours
from hy halogens. Some of my CFLs have clocked up more than 5,000 hours and
are still chugging along.

I did notice

that the new LEDs lamps have heatsinks, so the metal might be
recoverable.

**Which is a lot more than you can recover from incandescents.

What kind of apparatus makes it possible to recycle the acrylic from
LEDs? But without having the acrylic contaminated with gallium
arsenide? Chemical stripper followed by a process to clean the acrylic?

As I suspect proper recycling will most likely just mean "dumping in
the ocean", what cost effective use could there be for a used circuit
board populated with LEDs and a few common components?

**Given the very long life-span of LEDs, you won' have to worry too much.

In order for something to be recyclable, there needs to be a profit
associated with the recycled product.

The bullshit is madness.. just sayin'

**I agree. You spin so much bullshit, that it is madness.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Trevor Wilson"

Incandescents are different. They use a LOT of silicon,

** FFS Trevor - get your fist off it !!!!

There is no "silicon" used make an incandescent lamp - just a few grams of
sand.

NO comparison exists with evil semiconductor manufacture.

solder and some brass (or plated steel).

** You forgot the tungsten.

Kinda the most important bit.

And the base contact material is the same as used for CFLs.

Wot an IDIOT.



..... Phil

 

[Trevor Wilson]

Maybe you know of a heat pump that will illuminate a house, and only
cost the owner about $20 per year to purchase.

**I don't. And YOU don't know of a lamp that can heat a house (or cool one)
either. Using lights to warm a home is insane. Pretty much like everything
else you've posted.

Production of plastics pollutes, so does gallium arsenide, and
mercury in CFLs.

**No one disputes that. Production of almost any manufactured item causes
some kind of pollution. That is why regulators ensure that the pollution
created is dealt with appropriately. Fortunately, LEDs last a VERY long time
and consume small amounts of material, so total pollution remains low.

Were you born yesterday?

**Did the manufacturing process of computer you are presently using cause
zero pollution? Are you insane?

Just because the pollution takes place somewhere else doesn't mean it
doesn't effect all.

**I am well aware of that. I am also a supporter of organisations that
attempt to minimise pollution caused by large manufacturers of many
products. Are you?

Ubuntu.

Some say that only about 1% of the water on this planet is drinkable,
although there's plenty that's contaminated with toxic chemicals and
disease.
Many people drink and bathe in poisonous, disease polluted water, but
that shouldn't concern you.

**Like I said: I contribute financially to several organisations that are
active in trying to ensure that people less fortunate than I am are not
subject to pollution from large companies. Do you?

Who is dying from silicon?

**The manufacture of glass, steel and tungsten is a very energy intensive
process. Combined with the extremely short life-span of incandescent lamps
and their monsterous inefficiency (Less than 5%) contributes to huge amounts
of CO2. CFLs and LEDs cause far less CO2 to be emitted, both in manufacture
and in operation over the life of the product. CO2 affects every human on
the planet.

Dealing with pollution means having the nasty shit made somewhere
else.. like a poor country.

**Like I said before.....

Proof? Where's the proof that the incandescent light bulb you bought
was packaged in plastic?

**Geez! You think I keep the packaging? Get real.

For how long have incandescents been packaged in paper products..
well over 100 years. Those paper packages are broken down, but old
plastics continue to pollute.

**Like I said before: Both the LEDs and the CFLs were packed in cardboard,
whilst the incandescent was packed in cardboard and plastic.

You going to burn those scrap plastics to generate more power? How
about in your town?

**WFT are you smoking?

Obviously you haven't seen any reports of huge artificial island-like
masses in the oceans, made up of discarded plastic products/waste.
**Incorrect.


The "extremely" long life of CFLs and now LEDs is a projected number.

**No. It is a REAL number, verified by many users. Myself included. NONE of
my CFLs have failed. Not one. OTOH, I've replaced many incandescents over
the same period, despite the fact that they accrue VASTLY fewer hours of
use.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I have yet to get over 2 years of life
from those "5-7 year" CFLs I've been buying for over a decade.

**You're either:

* Lying.
* Buying cheap, crappy CFLs
* Using them in enclosed fittings.

Did you eat a lot of lead paint as a child? It was banned and lead
paint was replaced it with a new latex paint.. which contained
mercury.
**Strawman.


You don't mention how many of those first-generation LEDs you're
using, are the only lighting in a room. Maybe you're referring to
night lights, like the ones that show where walls are when you're
walking around in the dark.

**I'm referring to first generation white LEDs.

So how many of those buggers does it take

to light a room?

**Irrelevant. They have lasted extremely well.

I mean bright enough so everything can be seen.

At night, so you can see the pattern in the carpet, or read a book or
find a pencil dropped under a table.
Like I stated before.. the new LED lamps I've seen won't fit many
existing light fixtures, so get ready to spend.

**And, on the other side of the coin, modern LEDs can be manufactured into
completely new and different shapes.

One way to insure that LED lighting won't be cheaper in the future is
to ban other types of lighting.. apparently you delight in being
gullible.

**I delight in arguing with idiots like you.