Canada's 'Big' Solar Announcement

[Brian Graham]

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/03/21/solar060321.html

From the article,

"The government will pay an inflated price for the energy for 20 years to help make the project attractive: 42 cents a kilowatt-hour for solar and 11 cents for wind, biomass, or small hydroelectric projects. "

"Premier Dalton McGuinty says he hopes the plan will see a quarter of a million homes powered by renewable energy within a decade. "

He's dreaming, I should think. The incentive is so low, I don't think it would even pay the interest on the loan needed to buy the panels.

Too bad. I'm aching for US-type programs which truly offset the cost of going solar. I'll have to go slow and steady instead..

 

[Brian Graham]

Oops - sorry. Should clarify. That's the province of Ontario only. There's nothing for the rest of Canada that I'm aware of..
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/03/21/solar060321.html

From the article,

"The government will pay an inflated price for the energy for 20 years to help make the project attractive: 42 cents a kilowatt-hour for solar and 11 cents for wind, biomass, or small hydroelectric projects. "

"Premier Dalton McGuinty says he hopes the plan will see a quarter of a million homes powered by renewable energy within a decade. "

He's dreaming, I should think. The incentive is so low, I don't think it would even pay the interest on the loan needed to buy the panels.

Too bad. I'm aching for US-type programs which truly offset the cost of going solar. I'll have to go slow and steady instead..

 

[[email protected]]

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/03/21/solar060321.html

"The government will pay an inflated price for the energy for 20 years to
help make the project attractive: 42 cents a kilowatt-hour for solar and
11 cents for wind, biomass, or small hydroelectric projects. "

He's dreaming, I should think. The incentive is so low, I don't think it
would even pay the interest on the loan needed to buy the panels.

Really? What do you pay for electricity? I would think that 42 cents for
the surplus would be a good deal. In California, my sell-back varies with
time of day and season, but peaks at about $0.30. I hope that's more than
enough to pay the interest on the loan.

Too bad. I'm aching for US-type programs which truly offset the cost of
going solar. I'll have to go slow and steady instead.. -- Brian

Are you referring to a bulk credit up front, instead of higher rates over
the life of the project?

 

[Brian Graham]

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/03/21/solar060321.html

"The government will pay an inflated price for the energy for 20 years to
help make the project attractive: 42 cents a kilowatt-hour for solar and
11 cents for wind, biomass, or small hydroelectric projects. "

He's dreaming, I should think. The incentive is so low, I don't think it
would even pay the interest on the loan needed to buy the panels.

Really? What do you pay for electricity? I would think that 42 cents for
the surplus would be a good deal. In California, my sell-back varies with
time of day and season, but peaks at about $0.30. I hope that's more than
enough to pay the interest on the loan.

Well, if its a 30K investment, 5% interest would be $1500 the first year. OTOH, if you were able to gen 1Kw above your consumption - a sizeable assumption, I believe - you would collect $.42 x 1 (kw) x 4.5 (avg solar insolation here) x 365 = $689 per annum. About 1/2 the first year's interest. I'm not positive about Ottawa's numbers, but I believe they're 2.5 winter and 6.5 summer with an avg of 4.5 iirc .

Too bad. I'm aching for US-type programs which truly offset the cost of
going solar. I'll have to go slow and steady instead..

Are you referring to a bulk credit up front, instead of higher rates over
the life of the project?

Absolutely. I'd sure rather see an incentive plan which rebates say 25% of my purchase. Who needs to sell to the grid? Just get off it. (Sure would be nice!

 

[[email protected]]

If solar is such a viable energy source, then why does it need a 400%
subsidy?

Why do people rent, when they can buy a house in an area where the loan
payments are less than rent?

If I tell someone that my solar system will pay for itself in 10 years,
whether that is true or not, they are not interested in making the
commitment.

My next door neighbors chose not to install solar because of the $45,000
install price. Instead they will pay $500 per month to PG&E this year, who
knows how much in ten years.

Somewhere around a 400% subsidy, maybe they'll change their minds ;-)

 

[William P.N. Smith]

Well, if its a 30K investment, 5% interest would be $1500 the first year. OTOH, if you were able to gen 1Kw above your consumption - a sizeable assumption, I believe - you would collect $.42 x 1 (kw) x 4.5 (avg solar insolation here) x 365 = $689 per annum.

Wait a minute, you have to include the money you save by not paying
for your consumption as well! [in fact, I'd wire things such that I
got paid $.42 for everything I produced...]

 

[[email protected]]

My plan:
-Buy a massive battery bank and buy energy from my local distributor
at 3.9 cents/kWh at night.

Can't be too massive. The trick only works below 10kW.

-Pump it back into the grid at 42 cents / kWh during the solar times.

The spread isn't quite that wide, but you're on to something.

- Upgrade my 5W solar fan ballcap to 10W so that I can be approved as
a solar rebate customer.

You probably have to actually have a large solar installation at least
approved, maybe never installed.

It has to be done by a licensed installer to get the upfront rebates.
The net metering might be different, but you have ... it does have to be
installed. One of the steps is to submit the approved building permit
sign-off. I suppose you could sell it all as soon as it's finished.

There's probably no monitored correlation between the size of your system
and the amount of energy that you push to the grid.

If I can't make a profit on 3.9 to 42 differential something is wrong
and I would be doing the grid a favour anyway. Hell, my solar panels
will perform at 10,000% efficiency even on overcast days. (do they
have to be connected or just in my possession?) ..LOL

That might work. It already does work for some reservoirs in Southern
California, where water is pumped uphill at night, and drained down through
generators during the day. They appear in the ISO list for California as
generators with negative net contribution, as does solar.

I think... I don't want to look it up for this discussion, that there are
three levels of this scheme. Below 10kw works the way you want, buy low,
sell high, but never at a profit, only reducing your bill to $0.

Between 10 and 30kw, I think you can sell back the excess and get a check
once a year, but that might be at wholesale rates in both directions.

Above 30kw, you buy and sell at wholesale rates.

Buying and maintaining the batteries would be expensive. Maybe you should
just keep the solar panels instead.

To recap: If you live in an area where the rebate and time-of-use net
metering structure makes it profitable (reduction of expenses) to install
solar, why doesn't everyone do it?

 

[wmbjk]

My plan:
-Buy a massive battery bank and buy energy from my local distributor
at 3.9 cents/kWh at night.
-Pump it back into the grid at 42 cents / kWh during the solar times.

The spread isn't quite that wide, but you're on to something.

- Upgrade my 5W solar fan ballcap to 10W so that I can be approved as
a solar rebate customer.

You probably have to actually have a large solar installation at least
approved, maybe never installed.[/QUOTE]

He claims he has 1000W already, but perhaps those are only available
for Usenet parade duty.

Buying and maintaining the batteries would be expensive.

Yes, and then there are the losses, the charger, the grid-tie
inverter, and the biggest fly in the ointment - he claims he's
building in Michigan, so you'd have to figure the cost of his
cross-border extension cord.

Wayne

 

[[email protected]]

Well, if its a 30K investment, 5% interest would be $1500 the first year.
OTOH, if you were able to gen 1Kw above your consumption - a sizeable

Or $125 per month. If that eliminates a $250 electricity bill, you can pay
down $100 of principal per month, and buy a few beers.
The interest on the loan is tax deductible, worth another $25-30 per month.

Absolutely. I'd sure rather see an incentive plan which rebates say 25%
of my purchase. Who needs to sell to the grid? Just get off it. (Sure
would be nice!

For my system, the California rebate was 31% of the installed price.
So, would you purchase a grid-tie system if you lived in California?

There is a US federal tax credit of $2,000.

Different areas have different rebates.
California is $2.80/watt.
http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/erprebate/program.html

Some cities in California add another $4.00/watt.
If that can be taken along with the California subsidy, it would be free.
Why doesn't everybody in Anaheim have Solar?

 

[[email protected]]

and I would be doing the grid a favour anyway. Hell, my solar panels
will perform at 10,000% efficiency even on overcast days. (do they
have to be connected or just in my possession?) ..LOL

Uh-oh. California checks installations.
"However, 16 systems had equipment installed that differed notably from
final documentation and would require additional investigation to determine
if the correct rebate was paid."

 

[SJC]

Uh-oh. California checks installations.
"However, 16 systems had equipment installed that differed notably from
final documentation and would require additional investigation to determine
if the correct rebate was paid."

You can find information on the California policies here:

http://www.consumerenergycenter.org/erprebate/index.html

 

[[email protected]]

I have never heard of another area that can det that big of a
differential 3.9 cents to 42 cents for all produced.

California has two rebate schemes, I now discover.
There is the well-funded plan, $2.80 per watt at time of installation.
There is another plan, $0.50 per kWh generated, for the first three years.
That is a pilot program, and doesn't have much funding available.

The Canada plan doesn't say that there's a time limit, but maybe it is the
same as the California plan, and ends after a short period.

 

[JME]

One other Problem, the initial installation will require special inspection
($300) and an electronic meter ($5 per month).

California rebates capital investment. They would want to see proof of
the capital outlay.

Ontario is rebating energy. The proof is the energy meter proving it.

Time will tell. shhhhh...Better keep it quiet until the rules get laid
out.