Can flexible non mettalic cable be used on flow switch

[Nick Markowitz]

Ok my turn to ask a question saw flexible non mettalic
conduit made of gray plastic used to protect flow swicth and tamper switch.
On a fire system.
I typically use this stuff for AC units ,Hotwater tanks,machinery boat docks
etc were i need flexabilty of conductors and water resistance but not
physical protection of conductors.

if it is physcial protection NEC code says EMT IMC RC
MC AC/BX Greenfield or Liquid tight -metal with plastic over it and sealed
connectors that assure grounding if tamper swicth is in a pit which would
get wet ocassionally which are all metal
seems to me the non mettalic stuff would not provide for circuit integrity
NFPA72 calls for to flow and tampers.
have checkd with several AHJ and they all seem to think my way that it must
be mettalic protection not plastic.
have inqurys into NFPA and waiting an opinion from engineers

Opinions. any one know were it was leaglly used in this situation ?


--
Nick Markowitz Jr.
Owner
Markowitz Electic Protection
Private Industry Fire Investigator.

Contributing Editor Pa. Firemans Magazine
Staff Editor www.securitymission.com
Senior Correspondant www.1strespondernews.com
Exclusive Correspondant www.nbfd.us
Contract Broadcast Engineer WAVL 910 AM apollo Pa.

"To error is human to realy foul things up requires a computer"

 

[Nick Markowitz]

I forgot to mention this flex could be used other places in system like
heats in a garage etc area that might get wet etc.
but the circuits in these cases do not need the assured circuit integriy
and can be run in open red fire cable ( Unless local code forbids) unlike
for flow switches and tampers

--
Nick Markowitz Jr.
Owner
Markowitz Electic Protection
Private Industry Fire Investigator.

Contributing Editor Pa. Firemans Magazine
Staff Editor www.securitymission.com
Senior Correspondant www.1strespondernews.com
Exclusive Correspondant www.nbfd.us
Contract Broadcast Engineer WAVL 910 AM apollo Pa.

"To error is human to realy foul things up requires a computer"

 

[Jim Rojas]

You might be able to get away with it if you have a seperate conductor as
your ground. But doing so, you will need to follow the appropriate grounding
procedures.

When grounding multiple devices, you cannot use the same chassis lug for the
tie down, 2 seperate lugs are required, or one lug per grounding wire. An
example of this can be seen in some larger fire panels.

To make sure, contact the AHJ, they have the final say on these matters.

Jim Rojas

 

[Frank Olson]

Ok my turn to ask a question saw flexible non mettalic
conduit made of gray plastic used to protect flow swicth and tamper
switch.
On a fire system.
I typically use this stuff for AC units ,Hotwater tanks,machinery boat
docks
etc were i need flexabilty of conductors and water resistance but not
physical protection of conductors.

if it is physcial protection NEC code says EMT IMC RC
MC AC/BX Greenfield or Liquid tight -metal with plastic over it and sealed
connectors that assure grounding if tamper swicth is in a pit which would
get wet ocassionally which are all metal
seems to me the non mettalic stuff would not provide for circuit integrity
NFPA72 calls for to flow and tampers.
have checkd with several AHJ and they all seem to think my way that it
must
be mettalic protection not plastic.
have inqurys into NFPA and waiting an opinion from engineers

Opinions. any one know were it was leaglly used in this situation ?


--
Nick Markowitz Jr.
Owner
Markowitz Electic Protection
Private Industry Fire Investigator.

Contributing Editor Pa. Firemans Magazine
Staff Editor www.securitymission.com
Senior Correspondant www.1strespondernews.com
Exclusive Correspondant www.nbfd.us
Contract Broadcast Engineer WAVL 910 AM apollo Pa.

"To error is human to realy foul things up requires a computer"

Has to be metal. There is liquid tight BX available
(http://www.easternwire.com/lt-met-home.html). We use that for areas that
are subject to moisture.


--
Frank Olson
http://www.yoursecuritysource.com
Free listings for qualified dealers and industry professionals
You can read the ASA FAQ at
http://www.yoursecuritysource.com/asafaq.htm

 

[Jim Rojas]

I think it went under the name of "Sealtite" for the BX with plastic
coating. That's what I used in NYC, when I did fire alarms.

Jim Rojas

 

[G. Morgan]

alt.security.alarms

Has to be metal. There is liquid tight BX available
(http://www.easternwire.com/lt-met-home.html). We use that for areas that
are subject to moisture.

Of course this method is negated when hooked to a "grounded" plastic
box! <ducking>


-Graham

Remove the 'snails' from my email

 

[Nick Markowitz]

looks like something else this company did wrong on the install. besides
wiring flow and tamper together and they hired the supposed alarm experts
here in Pittsburgh and got bad info all the way down the road on this
install.
its pretty bad when you hire expertise and get slop.


--
Nick Markowitz Jr.
Owner
Markowitz Electic Protection
Private Industry Fire Investigator.

Contributing Editor Pa. Firemans Magazine
Staff Editor www.securitymission.com
Senior Correspondant www.1strespondernews.com
Exclusive Correspondant www.nbfd.us
Contract Broadcast Engineer WAVL 910 AM apollo Pa.

"To error is human to realy foul things up requires a computer"

 

[G. Morgan]

alt.security.alarms

looks like something else this company did wrong on the install. besides
wiring flow and tamper together and they hired the supposed alarm experts
here in Pittsburgh and got bad info all the way down the road on this
install.
its pretty bad when you hire expertise and get slop.

My comment on plastic boxes was an "inside joke" that you must have
missed (two years old).

Frank is right, the conduit has to be conductible so it can detect a
jacket cut-- thus a short to ground. Among other reasons the NFPA
has.

Flow and tamper are always separate zones. I hope they didn't wire a
flow circuit in series with the tamper contacts..... that is wrong.

What "experts" did you or "they" hire? Obviously they were not.
Contact Michael Baker if you need code advice.






-Graham

Remove the 'snails' from my email

 

[Nick Markowitz]

I was called in originally to hook this mess up to central station and found
all the problems and notified all involved before a tragedy resulted and i
am now working wth AHJ and original contractor to get all issues resolved.
fell bad for this phone company starting into fire alarm buisness they realy
got screwed over.


--
Nick Markowitz Jr.
Owner
Markowitz Electic Protection
Private Industry Fire Investigator.

Contributing Editor Pa. Firemans Magazine
Staff Editor www.securitymission.com
Senior Correspondant www.1strespondernews.com
Exclusive Correspondant www.nbfd.us
Contract Broadcast Engineer WAVL 910 AM apollo Pa.

"To error is human to realy foul things up requires a computer"

 

[G. Morgan]

alt.security.alarms

fell bad for this phone company starting into fire alarm buisness they realy
got screwed over.

It sounds like you got screwed... **** the phone company... they
should stick to phones.


-Graham

Remove the 'snails' from my email

 

[Nick Markowitz]

yea your right about that one another example of some one wanting to get
into a high liability buisness and not doing due diligence . thank god i
found this mess
there are just too man clowns in Pa. tat have no uisness touching life
safety systems.

--
Nick Markowitz Jr.
Owner
Markowitz Electic Protection
Private Industry Fire Investigator.

Contributing Editor Pa. Firemans Magazine
Staff Editor www.securitymission.com
Senior Correspondant www.1strespondernews.com
Exclusive Correspondant www.nbfd.us
Contract Broadcast Engineer WAVL 910 AM apollo Pa.

"To error is human to realy foul things up requires a computer"

 

[Michael B. Baker]

Nick,

NFPA 72 requires circuit integrity monitoring, which is provided by the
system manufacturer. As you know the minimum requirements are to indicate a
trouble condition on an open circuit or single ground fault.

As to wiring methods and materials, NFPA 70 does not prohibit the use of
flexible non metallic conduit in this application. The requirement is to
protect the circuit conductors using building construction, a solid guard,
or raceway.

NFPA 70-2002 760.52 ... In metal raceways or rigid nonmetallic conduit where
passing through a floor or wall to a height of 2.1 m (7 ft) above the floor,
unless adequate protection can be afforded by building construction such as
detailed in 760.52(B)(1) or unless an equivalent solid guard is provided.

I hope this helps,

Mike

--
Michael B. Baker, SET
Michael Baker & Associates Inc
Seminars - Design - Inspection
PO Box 737
Gladstone, OR 97027-0737
503-657-8888 v
503-655-1014 f
ET News® http://www.etnews.org

 

[Nick Markowitz]

I was looking specifically for wiring to the tamper and flow switch.

--
Nick Markowitz Jr.
Owner
Markowitz Electic Protection
Private Industry Fire Investigator.

Contributing Editor Pa. Firemans Magazine
Staff Editor www.securitymission.com
Senior Correspondant www.1strespondernews.com
Exclusive Correspondant www.nbfd.us
Contract Broadcast Engineer WAVL 910 AM apollo Pa.

"To error is human to realy foul things up requires a computer"

 

[Michael B. Baker]

I've found nothing prohibiting its use on flow and valve position switches
so long as the liquidtite raceway is limited to 6' lengths.

 

[Nick Markowitz]

But the non mettalic liquid tight is not listed for physical protectection
per NEC I can not use it electrically were physical protection is required.
when last NFPA72 99 was written this material was not yet on market which
tends to make me think it would not be recognised.and NFPA has not been
doing there homework.

--
Nick Markowitz Jr.
Owner
Markowitz Electic Protection
Private Industry Fire Investigator.

Contributing Editor Pa. Firemans Magazine
Staff Editor www.securitymission.com
Senior Correspondant www.1strespondernews.com
Exclusive Correspondant www.nbfd.us
Contract Broadcast Engineer WAVL 910 AM apollo Pa.

"To error is human to realy foul things up requires a computer"