Brother CS-80 sewing machine bobbin winder not winding.

[David Farber]

I don't know much about sewing machines but this does not seem like a
complicated problem.Here are the pictures of the problem:

http://webpages.charter.net/mrfixiter/images/Electronics/CS-80/CS-80-bobbin-winder.jpg
http://webpages.charter.net/mrfixiter/images/Electronics/CS-80/CS-80-bobbin-winder-2.jpg
http://webpages.charter.net/mrfixiter/images/Electronics/CS-80/CS-80-bobbin-winder-3.jpg

The symptom is when you maually engage the bobbin winder assembly on the top
of the machine and press the button to activate it, you can hear the motor
turning inside but the winder does not turn. The first two photos show the
faulty drive assembly removed from the machine. The last photo shows the
assembly loosely installed in the machine. There is some mysterious black
slime (could it just be lubricant?) which I thought must have been some kind
of belt or idler that started disintegrating from age but the machine is
only about 5 years old. The main belts are in very good condition so it
doesn't make sense to me how this could have happened. If you poke the slime
with a small screwdriver it doesn't make a really big mess on everything it
touches like an old rubber belt does. You can see in the third picture that
the area surrounding the part is fairly clean. I think that small black mark
on the large gear to the left happened when I removed the part. By the way,
the part in question is mounted on a plate that can be manually shifted up
against the main gear assembly to get it to turn. I searched around for a
parts diagram for this model but no luck. I know some of you that frequent
this board have delved into sewing machine repairs and was wondering what
this part is and how it interfaces with the drive mechanism to make the
winder rotate.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[David Farber]

On Sun, 6 May 2012 18:42:04 -0700, "David Farber"

Brother CS-80


Yuck. What you have there is a bad case of decomposing rubber. That's
when the vulcanization (sulfur cross links) fail and the rubber
returns to a sticky, gooey, messy blob.


Ummm... it's totalled and is not going to work. Replace the bobbin
winder assembly.


The black slime is what's left of the rubber bobbin drive. I can't
tell from here what caused the disintegration, but the most likely
cause are aeromatic hydrocarbon solvents found in cleaning solutions.
Furniture stripper, carbeurator cleaner, and such might cause it.
However, if the rubber was properly make, it should be impervious to
solvent attack. However, if the rubber was badly made, it might
happen.


If the other belts were properly cured, they would be impervious to
solvent attack. Looks like the bobbin winder drive wheel wasn't made
so well.


Wrap the mess in cellophane plastic wrap to keep the sticky mess from
migrating. The stuff is very messy and difficult to clean.


This looks like the correct assembly. Please verify before ordering:
<http://www.vacsew.com/brother-sewing-machine-bobbin-winder-xc3601121.html>

Hi Jeff,

This machine was never opened before so I'm going to say that the wheel was
made as cheaply as possible. It was stored for a while and maybe sitting
around in the garage may have exposed it to temperature extremes. In any
case, thanks for the great links. That allowed me to search for the rubber
ring
http://www.sewingpartsonline.com/bobbin-winder-tire-brother-x55238051.aspx
($4 + $3.25 shipping) instead of the whole assembly (~$19 + $11 shipping).

Thanks for your reply.

 

[N_Cook]

I don't know much about sewing machines but this does not seem like a
complicated problem.Here are the pictures of the problem:

http://webpages.charter.net/mrfixiter/images/Electronics/CS-80/CS-80-bobbin-
winder.jpg
http://webpages.charter.net/mrfixiter/images/Electronics/CS-80/CS-80-bobbin-
winder-2.jpg
http://webpages.charter.net/mrfixiter/images/Electronics/CS-80/CS-80-bobbin-
winder-3.jpg

The symptom is when you maually engage the bobbin winder assembly on the top
of the machine and press the button to activate it, you can hear the motor
turning inside but the winder does not turn. The first two photos show the
faulty drive assembly removed from the machine. The last photo shows the
assembly loosely installed in the machine. There is some mysterious black
slime (could it just be lubricant?) which I thought must have been some kind
of belt or idler that started disintegrating from age but the machine is
only about 5 years old. The main belts are in very good condition so it
doesn't make sense to me how this could have happened. If you poke the slime
with a small screwdriver it doesn't make a really big mess on everything it
touches like an old rubber belt does. You can see in the third picture that
the area surrounding the part is fairly clean. I think that small black mark
on the large gear to the left happened when I removed the part. By the way,
the part in question is mounted on a plate that can be manually shifted up
against the main gear assembly to get it to turn. I searched around for a
parts diagram for this model but no luck. I know some of you that frequent
this board have delved into sewing machine repairs and was wondering what
this part is and how it interfaces with the drive mechanism to make the
winder rotate.

Thanks for your reply.

I've never sen te like of that, gooey rubber plenty of times.
So all that model will go the same way. Presumably the result of
over-plasticised plastic rather than a rubber formulation as you say it is
non tacky. Whenever that happens with rubber then there seems to be a
contagion that affects all the rubber bands in a piece of kit, perhaps not
the case with what you have there
I would get some small neoprene O rings and stretch 2 or 3 over the pulley
to take up the width , if not enough diameter then 1 or 2 more stretched
over that underlying layer.
Then perhaps look out for a proper replacement

 

[David Farber]

I don't think that will work. That's for a babylock series machine.
The CS-80 is not listed on the list of compatible sewing machines for
the rubber tire. There was also a note on one of the pages I listed
indicating that the rubber tire was NOT available seperately. Unless
you want to experiment, methinks you will need to purchase the entire
assembly.

Nothing useful in the manual:
<http://homeappliance.manualsonline.com/manuals/mfg/brother/cs_80.html>

If you want to go cheap, measure the size of the rubber tire and visit
your local plumbing or hardware supply store. Dig through the pile of
rubber faucet gaskets for something similar. The exact shape and size
is not very critical, as long as it makes contact and doesn't slip. If
you're really cheap, get a slightly larger o-ring, cut it to size, and
glue the ends with cyanoacrylate adhesive. There might be a slight
bump as it turns, but it won't affect anything.

Hi Jeff,

I actually did a bit more research after my last post to make sure I was
getting the correct part. This place lists the tire as compatible with the
CS80 model so I purchased it there.
http://www.mysewingmachineparts.com...winder-tire-ring-x55238051-baby-lock-brother/

I really don't expect Brother, like many other companies, to make it easier
for you to buy one small part off of an entire assembly when it can make
more money selling the whole thing. This has been going on in the service
industry since the beginning of time. I don't consider myself being really
cheap. I consider it being smart. Speaking of cheap, how cheap was it of
Brother to use a tire like that in the first place?

Thanks for your reply.

 

[David Farber]

I've never sen te like of that, gooey rubber plenty of times.
So all that model will go the same way. Presumably the result of
over-plasticised plastic rather than a rubber formulation as you say
it is non tacky. Whenever that happens with rubber then there seems
to be a contagion that affects all the rubber bands in a piece of
kit, perhaps not the case with what you have there
I would get some small neoprene O rings and stretch 2 or 3 over the
pulley to take up the width , if not enough diameter then 1 or 2 more
stretched over that underlying layer.
Then perhaps look out for a proper replacement

I may have to resort to a home made repair as you suggested if the $4 tire I
bought isn't a good fit.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[N_Cook]

I may have to resort to a home made repair as you suggested if the $4 tire I
bought isn't a good fit.

Thanks for your reply.

And is the "proper" replacement going to be plastic also?
If you burn a bit of the gooed original is it a rubber or plastic smell?

 

[David Farber]

And is the "proper" replacement going to be plastic also?
If you burn a bit of the gooed original is it a rubber or plastic
smell?

I assume before the tire morphed into the tacky mess, it was made of rubber.
The replacement I ordered will also be made of rubber. After a bit more
research, this is the website where I placed my order.
http://www.mysewingmachineparts.com...winder-tire-ring-x55238051-baby-lock-brother/

I already cleaned off the mess so I don't have any sample left to burn. The
plastic pulley that supports the tire looks good and does not appear be
deformed in any way.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[N_Cook]

I assume before the tire morphed into the tacky mess, it was made of rubber.
The replacement I ordered will also be made of rubber. After a bit more
research, this is the website where I placed my order.
http://www.mysewingmachineparts.com/sewing-machine-bobbin-winder-tire-ring-x
55238051-baby-lock-brother/

I already cleaned off the mess so I don't have any sample left to burn. The
plastic pulley that supports the tire looks good and does not appear be
deformed in any way.

Thanks for your reply.

About 2 weeks ago an audio cassette recorder returned for repair. It was
made in 1986 and I repaired it about 15 years ago using a 2 cents O ring,
stretched onto the take-up spool pulley. Not bad for about 3 hours use a
day, someone who never moved away from cassettes . That O ring had
eventually split but no gooey mess, replacement one a bit thicker and a bit
larger diameter

 

[Winston]

N_Cook wrote:

(...)

About 2 weeks ago an audio cassette recorder returned for repair. It was
made in 1986 and I repaired it about 15 years ago using a 2 cents O ring,
stretched onto the take-up spool pulley. Not bad for about 3 hours use a
day, someone who never moved away from cassettes . That O ring had
eventually split but no gooey mess, replacement one a bit thicker and a bit
larger diameter

I repaired 16 mm motion picture projectors in my yout.
A *very common* problem was transmogrification of the
neoprene drive wheels and belts into a gooey mess.

A quick replacement, but a slow cleanup first.

--Winston

 

[David Farber]

N_Cook wrote:

(...)


I repaired 16 mm motion picture projectors in my yout.
A *very common* problem was transmogrification of the
neoprene drive wheels and belts into a gooey mess.

A quick replacement, but a slow cleanup first.

--Winston

When I first started out in the business (mid 1970's), I had an Ampex reel
to reel machine come in for repair. Probably this exact model:
www.ebay.com/itm/AMPEX-REEL-TO-REEL-700-1400-SERIES-ROUND-DRIVE-BELTS-/261017952610
I opened it up and I had to ask my boss what the gooey black stuff was
inside the machine. To me, it looked like somebody had spilled sludgy motor
oil into it. None of the belts were recognizable. I soon learned to stay
away from those Ampex machines as every one of them had the same problem.

 

[Cydrome Leader]

Ok. That should work.

The fun part will be getting the sticky rubber goo off the plastic
spindle. Have your latex gloves and noxious solvents handy.


Actually, they don't want to sell any parts. Most of the parts
available come from 3rd part aftermarket vendors, that either reverse
engineer the parts, or have some manner of arrangement with the
factory. Some countries require manufacturers to provide parts for
anywhere between 5-10 years (such as 10 years for autos in the USA),
which is what inspired this practice.

Incidentally, I managed to find the one Brother sewing machine that
lacked a downloadable manual from their web pile (XL2030). So, I sent
them an email asking for a copy and was rewarded with a free printed
original in the mail. I have access to a very fast Canon document
scanner and plan to scan the manual eventually.


Yep. However, I've also seen it from the manufacturers point of view.
It's much easier and more profitable to setup a board exchange
program, than to sell individual parts. Brother is not going to get
rich selling $3 rubber tires.

Incidentally, I once calculated what it cost my employer to ship an
empty box. That's a product that costs zero to make, but which still
has to carry the overhead such as purchasing, inventory control,
documentation, billing, shipping, etc. That was $75 in about 1980.
Probably much more today.

did you work for NASA or some other goverment organization?

 

[Cydrome Leader]

I usually ignore one line cute remarks, but since this is a topic that
interests me, I'll make an exception here.

No. I have never worked for the govermint. I did that calculation
working for Intech Inc, in Santa Clara CA, for the marine radio
division.

If you have a problem with my numbers, try doing the calculation
backwards. Take a publicly traded company (so that the numbers are
available), and obtain a number for how much they spend each year on
everything. Then, multiply their approximate parts and labor costs
times the number of units shipped in the same time period. The
difference is the selling price plus overhead, which must be paid by
the customer. Assume break even and zero taxes to keep things simple.
Divide by the number of units shipped and you have the cost of
shipping an empty box with zero value contents.

This math is as nonsense as those "calculators" from places that do
backups and datarecovery where you type in numbers and they claim you lose
10% of your annual revenue per minute your computers are down or whatever.

The only way it costs $75 to ship a box is if you factor in your 100
million dollar failed SAP installation as part of your "billing costS" or
whatever, and then blame the box for the expense.

 

[Cydrome Leader]

That might be a stretch, but the real numbers are fairly close. If
the sales organization can't take orders for a day, that business will
probably go to their competition. Assuming 7x24 or about 350 working
days per year, the loss of one day sales is 1/350 the of the gross, or
about 0.3% The actual losses will be higher due to repair/recovery
costs, overtime to recover, and loss of reputation. The last is
fairly significant. I know of one shopping web site that went dark
for only about 3 hours. However, there was a dramatic drop in
subsequent sales for about a month due to rumors that the company had
gone out of business because their web site was down. My guess is
about 1% overall loss for a days downtime.

this would sound more reasonable, but it all depends on what the business
does. Airlines barely function when their computers are running, shut them
all off and they they just don't work at all.

If your business is a tuckpointing company, it's doubyful you'd even know
if your own website was down.

I don't think anyone would be interested in my 30 year old
calculations. Also, I can't disclose number for current customers
because of confidentiality requirements. Sorry(tm).

Perhaps the 16GB iPhone 4S would be a suitable example. It costs
about $200 to manufacture, but sells retail for $500 from various
vendors, or $650 from Verizon. Using the $500 sales price, the cost
of shipping an empty iphone box is:
$500 - $200 = $300
The $300 pays for everything EXCEPT the product. For Verizon, 3.25
times cost is rather low for electronics. 4.0 to 4.5 times cost is
more typical.

this has to be a joke. If you're not from NASA, it's got to be lehman
brothers, enron or arthur anderson to say with a straight face that it
costs $300 to ship an iphone because the retail price is $500 and the
phone costs $200 to make.

 

[David Farber]

I don't think that will work. That's for a babylock series machine.
The CS-80 is not listed on the list of compatible sewing machines for
the rubber tire. There was also a note on one of the pages I listed
indicating that the rubber tire was NOT available seperately. Unless
you want to experiment, methinks you will need to purchase the entire
assembly.

Nothing useful in the manual:
<http://homeappliance.manualsonline.com/manuals/mfg/brother/cs_80.html>

If you want to go cheap, measure the size of the rubber tire and visit
your local plumbing or hardware supply store. Dig through the pile of
rubber faucet gaskets for something similar. The exact shape and size
is not very critical, as long as it makes contact and doesn't slip. If
you're really cheap, get a slightly larger o-ring, cut it to size, and
glue the ends with cyanoacrylate adhesive. There might be a slight
bump as it turns, but it won't affect anything.

The new tire arrived and it fit perfectly. The dimensions of the unmounted
tire are:

16.5mm o.d.
9.8mm i.d.
3.7mm tire thickness

 

[Cydrome Leader]

Quite real. The $300 difference between the retail price and the cost
from Apple is a conglomeration of profit and expenses. The profits to
Verizon and its stockholders. The expenses are a mixed bag of
executive compensation, sales incentives, advertising, taxes,
packaging, shipping, distribution, documentation, support, shrinkage,
returns, repairs, political contributions, debt retirement, assorted
bribes, charitable contributions, publicity, lavish product
announcement parties, slush funds, ad absurdium. If you think you can

So again, stating it costs $75 or $300 to ship an empty box is just pure
bullshit.