Art Project Help (Complete beginner)

[jksculpt]

Hello,
I am hoping to find some help for a piece I am working on. I am completely unfamiliar with electronics so I am sorry if I do not explain things the best. I will try to explain, however, to the best of my ability in hope you all can understand what it is I am hoping to do.
I am trying to have two lights flash in automated morse code as if they are having a conversation. They will be run off AC and I am hoping to use 25w incandescent bulbs for effect. I have been looking at arduino set ups but am having a hard time understanding what it is I need or if I need them. My preference would be to figure out how to do it all mechanically, though that is because that is where I am more inclined.
Ultimately I would like to have one of the two outcomes/ ways of doing achieving the final goal or conversation between lights:
1. Is that one light would start its message, then the other light would interrupt ( as the first keeps 'talking' ) due to a time differential in the beginning of the message for each light. I would like this to happen as randomly as possible so there is not a definite sequence or at least not easily conceived.
2. Have light one start then have light two interrupt do to sensing light one beginning whilst still hoping for the same final outcome as #1
Thanks,
jksculpt

 

[Gryd3]

First off. Welcome to Electronics Point.
Secondly, please do not post duplicates. Hopefully a mod can delete the copy here : <Obsolete>

Third: What you want is absolutely possible and will not require many components.

You had stated you want to figure out how to do this mechanically... can you please elaborate on what kind of parts you want to work with mechanically? This entire project could be done with a single microprocessor that will control both lights, can be programmed with an array of randomly or arranged morse code messages and can take care of randomly generating delays or interruptions for itself. It can also easily be interfaced to control 12V, 110V or 220V devices.

 

[KrisBlueNZ]

I've deleted the second thread. There were no replies on it.

Gryd3 has answered your questions very well. I assume you want the whole sequence, covering both lights, to be coordinated to some extent, and controlled from the same logic? You just want it to APPEAR as though one end is receiving the signal from the other, and interrupting it. There is no need for the lights to do anything more than pre-programmed sequences with relative delays between them. Is that right?

This sort of thing can be done very simply with something much smaller than an Arduino, though the Arduino development environment makes it relatively easy to use. The trickiest part will be working out how to define the patterns, the timing relationship between them, and the random delays, using some kind of data table that can be processed by the software.

Gryd3 probably has some ideas on this. It might help him if you could draw a timing chart with a line for each light bulb going from left to right as time passes, showing where sequences should start and stop, and where fixed and random delays should appear and what events on the line are measured relative to what other events, etc.

 

[jksculpt]

Sorry about the duplicate thread, it wasn't refreshing and I didn't realize it had posted in another area. By mechanically I was thinking of a music box kind of idea where raised areas of a cylinder or plate (run either by hand crank or a dedicated motor at low rpm) would touch a wire to open and close the circuits necessary for the more to take place. This, to me, would be exactly as a morse code machine would have worked in the beginning, though in a different orientation. As for a timing sequence I'm not sure what is meant by that. I am a complete beginner in this world and need clarification.
Thanks and sorry again about the repeat post.

 

[Gryd3]

Well, a music box idea will be difficult to generate a 'random' delay on any sort.
My understanding is that you want two lights to appear to 'talk' to each other with morse code, but you would like the 'talker' to be cut-off at a random time.
What we mean by timing sequence is the timing between pulses of morse code, or between letters in morse code, or even between the 'sender' being cut-off.
The timing is important regardless of going an electronic or mechanical route.

Here's the catch though. Even if you go the mechanical route, if you want some form of randomness, you will need to incorporate some electronics to trigger events randomly, or build something that has no well-known patter like a double pendulum. Many of us on here are more than capable of helping with the electronics portion, but you may wind up on your own for the mechanical section.

 

[KrisBlueNZ]

What I'm talking about is just a timeline showing when events need to occur. Since you have two lamps, there would be two timelines, one above the other, one for each lamp. Use symbols on each timeline to indicate start and end of Morse code bursts, or even better, show the individual dits and dahs. Use vertical lines to indicate when things need to happen at the same time. Use horizontal lines with arrows at each end to indicate time differences between events, and mark them with exact intervals or indicate that they're random and what the timing range should be. This diagram would pretty much specify the whole project and it would make it clear to everyone exactly what you want to happen.

 

[jksculpt]

I guess to simplify the process I could actually run each bulb independent of the other if I start the sequences at different times. I would really only like them to to say "I'm sorry" and one say, "no I'm sorry" all in morse code. It's not necessary for them to interrupt each other off the same program. I realized I have made my proposed outcome sounds a little more complex than needed. I am straying away from any mechanical means other than a switch or relay.
I am working on a diagram and I appreciate all that you two have contributed this far. It's already helping me more properly think about what it is I am asking.
Cheers

 

[Gryd3]

I guess to simplify the process I could actually run each bulb independent of the other if I start the sequences at different times.

This entirely up to you.
Here is something to think about if it is setup this way:
If they run at slightly different rates, they may drift out of sync and eventually appear to no longer interrupt each other, but to talk at the same time with a period of neither of them talking in between. A solution here is to have them connected somehow so they know that the other has started talking. This does have a benefit of easily being located great distances away from each other though...

You had stated earlier that you want them to talk over each other at a random part of them talking... so...
light one. " I'm So... "
light two. " No, I'm sorry " (As light one finishes the message " rry ")

But you would like the timing to be random in this case correct?

After this sequence, do you want light two to begin saying "Im sorry" so that light one has a chance to cut in? or does this mark 'the end' and to wait a random amount of time before starting from the beginning again?

 

[jksculpt]

That's a good point, I didn't think about the idea of them drifting apart form each other, and while it may not be noticeable to someone not versed in mores code it could completely throw off the exchange. Conversely, it would add to the awkwardness of the conversation like when two people have sometimes awkward silences and interruptions; it could add to the spontaneity of the exchange. A set term of maybe 5-10 seconds or so between the ending of each of their sequences would be ok with me, even if they got somewhat out of sync. However, it might be smart for me to try each option to see which works best.
In your opinion which would be the easier of the two to begin with and experiment with?
Again, Thank you for all the input thus far.

 

[Gryd3]

In your opinion which would be the easier of the two to begin with and experiment with?
Again, Thank you for all the input thus far.

It sounds as though you are very new to electronics and or programming at the same time. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.

I think you've got two approaches to take:
Go the microcontroller route, or build a circuit from discrete components.
The microcontroller route will require you to program your chip, but will greatly reduce the amount of parts required. It will also allow you to build some samples very quickly and start experimenting.
I can't really see a benefit to building it with discrete components other than having a larger more complex looking circuit board that may get shown off as a 'Look what I can do'.

Your best bet in my opinion is to buy an Arduino. There are many many other types of microcontrollers, but this will get you started sooner as you can just plug it into your computer and program it with a USB cable. Take a look at the Arduino 'Uno', it's a smaller board that still packs enough power to control the entire project. You can buy two if you really want to... but I doubt you need to. Once you have it, you can wire up a single relay to it with a transistor to play with a single light. From there, it is just a matter of some creative programming to control the second light at the same time from the same Arduino.

Alternatively, you can get a PIC. It's smaller, and is a little more difficult to program but you can buy additional PICs starting at $1 which could control your lights. This is not a cut and dry cheaper solution though, as it requires more money and time to be invested to get setup than an Arduino.

 

[jksculpt]

Yes I am a complete beginner in both realms, its a project I plan on using as a learning tool as well as a piece for further exploration.
Thanks!

 

[Gryd3]

Yes I am a complete beginner in both realms, its a project I plan on using as a learning tool as well as a piece for further exploration.
Thanks!

If you plan to invest time into learning a microcontroller, any of them will be of great help to you.
Take a look at PIC or AVR as examples.

I had recommended Arduino as it will be much nicer to get started with, but the product is physically larger and more expensive than other microcontrollers. You pay for convenience!
Of course, you can re-program them many many times. So once this project is done, you can remove the microcontroller from your morse code project and drop it in another project to play with.
If you need to fire up your morse code project again, plug it into your computer and put the morse code program back on and bob's your uncle.

They are all magical convenient devices